Calvinism and Context?

[TheDivineWatermark]

I know nothing of chronology,why would I need too?

Progressive revelation....do you mean after we are saved?

Well, I was referring to (what I'd put),

Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

... this ^ being distinct from what we see (taking place) BEFORE His death on the cross, see. That is what I mean (and what I meant by chronology "IN [the] SCRIPTURE")



EDIT to add: I see "1ofthem" [member] posted just one minute before I had (while I had still been typing ), using the same verses.

 

[jackrosie]

And no man can come unto the Father accept through the Son....John 14 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And he also says...If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me. God sent his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

With the scriptures, I would say all are drawn...

What does “all” are drawn mean?

 

[jackrosie]

Of course he did. He draws all through the Word the Gospel, through the Holy Spirit, even nature testifies of him so that no one will have an excuse.

I think it is more preservation....because once we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. God is the one who does this; he preserves us. We could not do this on our own. It takes the Holy Spirit.

What does he draws “all” mean?

 

[jackrosie]

Well, I was referring to (what I'd put),

Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

... this ^ being distinct from what we see (taking place) BEFORE His death on the cross, see. That is what I mean (and what I meant by chronology "IN [the] SCRIPTURE")



EDIT to add: I see "1ofthem" [member] posted just one minute before I had (while I had still been typing ), using the same verses.

Is that your answer to my questions?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I think it is more preservation....because once we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. God is the one who does this; he preserves us.

Agreed.


[personally, I think there was just a bit of confusion that stemmed from another poster's use of "he that shall endure unto the end" passage, in their example]

 

[jackrosie]

Of course he did. He draws all through the Word the Gospel, through the Holy Spirit, even nature testifies of him so that no one will have an excuse.

I think it is more preservation....because once we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. God is the one who does this; he preserves us. We could not do this on our own. It takes the Holy Spirit.

Can you explain in more detail..thanks.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Is that your answer to my questions?

My only answer is this:

Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

I believe Him.


And... He said, in John 14:6, "Jesus says to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by [/by means of] Me."

 

[Magenta]

Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."


Do you understand "chronology"? What happens when, in relation to what other thing/things, in Scripture?
Some call it progressive revelation... (for example, in 1Pet1:13, "Wherefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace that is being brought to you in revelation of Jesus Christ"... not "in THE revelation of Jesus Christ" as elsewhere used [with the definite article ('the')], which contrastly speaks of the "future" [an "eschatological" revelation of Him, future], but not here in this 1Pet1:13 verse).

Jesus, in John 12:32, is referencing how it would be FOLLOWING His Cross-work. We should believe Him where He says this, no?

John 12:31-32

 

[EleventhHour]

So,are you saying we are preaching a false gospel?

Why haven’t you reported us....?...

Yes this is a false Gospel, no one is regenerated prior to belief.

As well, grace is not irresistible that is not what scripture plainly shows many times over.

 

[EleventhHour]

My only answer is this:

Jesus said, in John 12:32 (shortly before He would go to the Cross), "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."

I believe Him.


And... He said, in John 14:6, "Jesus says to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by [/by means of] Me."

Amen... God does not select some and send them "irresistible grace" and deny others.

 

[jackrosie]

Yes this is a false Gospel, no one is regenerated prior to belief.

As well, grace is not irresistible that is not what scripture plainly shows many times over.

We have already told you ...God brought us to believe...how many more times.

 

[EleventhHour]

We have already told you ...God brought us to believe...how many more times.

Is salvation available to everyone if they chose to believe..... or just some chosen by God?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So you were born saved.... never under God's wrath?

The Calvinist will often say, Jesus only died for those whom God chose [as "His"] before time [before creation].

However, Romans 8:9b says this:

"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."


[the underlined is true of us before we come to faith in Christ; therefore the bold is true of us before and up to that point]

EH said (Post #689): no one is regenerated prior to belief

QFT. = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I am not sure, exactly, what John Calvin believed, because I have never read his writings, but if he believes that God predestines mankind's choices in the way mankind wants to live his life as he sojourns here on earth, then, I disagree with him, but I do believe that mankind does not have a choice in his eternal salvation, because the harmony of the scriptures teach otherwise. That choice is made be God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.

I don't have access to everything he's ever written... but here are just a cpl quotes from him (for example), and then a different quote by another:


Two Calvin quotes: "Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction." – (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210) [...and...] "Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231)

____________

[quoting another]

H.A. Ironside best explains the view of those walking between the ditches of Calvinism and Arminianism. He showed the limited use of that term (predestination) in the Bible. “Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans 8:29-30, the other chapter is Ephesians 1:5 and 11. You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually. Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus."

[end quoting]

____________

I believe that "predestination" refers to... when a person trusts Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation, they receive "the package deal" [ALL OF THIS: justification, sanctification, glorification... (etc)]

 

[EleventhHour]

What does “all” are drawn mean?

Romans 1:19 (NASB) because that which is known about God is evident with them; for God made it evident to them.

Jesus made it evident to all men.

He has revealed the nature of God to them.
He promised to draw ALL men to Him because of what has been made evident to them.
Yet some suppress this truth in unrighteousness and resist the drawing.

 

[Bbrdrd]

it really is interesting --

Elihu tells Job, if you have an answer for me, tell me, if not hold your tongue and i will teach you wisdom. ((33:31-33))
God essentially tells Job the same thing - answer Me; I will teach you wisdom.
righteous Job does not have an answer for either of them ((40:1-5)) - is he taught wisdom? 'fear of the LORD'
Elihu says Job speaks without knowledge - God says the same thing ((35:16, 38:2))
Elihu says look at how high above you God is, look at all the things He has done - God says the same thing.

between Elihu & God, Job knows it is time to shut up in humility ((42:1-6))

God tells Eliphaz, Bildad & Zophar they've been wrong, and to make atonement ((42:7-9))
Elihu isn't mentioned. it's not said anywhere i can find that Elihu wasn't right.

yes @Bbrdrd Elihu does say Job has not been righteous --

"Surely you have spoken in my hearing,​

and I have heard the sound of your words, saying,​

‘I am pure, without transgression;​

I am innocent, and there is no iniquity in me.​

Yet He finds occasions against me,​

He counts me as His enemy;​

He puts my feet in the stocks,​

He watches all my paths.’​

Look, in this you are not righteous.​

I will answer you,​

for God is greater than man.​

Why do you contend with Him?​

For He does not give an accounting of any of His words."​

(Job 33:8-13)​

​

he says Job's unrighteousness is his demanding an account from God, in justifying himself. Elihu justifies God -
and does God give Job an account?
or does God reply as Elihu does, saying, God is greater than man, who are you to contend with Him?
doesn't Paul say this too, in Romans 9:20?

friend perhaps to say @cv5 is like Elihu is a greater compliment to him than you meant to give

The silence on God's part certainly gives ambiguity to Elihu's status and there is some accord between them, but Elihu states a number of things that are incorrect. He doesn't just say that Job's speaking is in ignorance, but that Job keeps company with the wicked and states that Job's situation is repayment for his deeds. Elihu doubles down on the reaping and sewing theology of the previous 3:

He does not let the wicked live
but gives justice to the afflicted.
7 He never takes his eyes off the innocent,
but he sets them on thrones with kings
and exalts them forever.
8 If they are bound in chains
and caught up in a web of trouble,
9 he shows them the reason.
He shows them their sins of pride.
10 He gets their attention
and commands that they turn from evil.

We know from the beginning that there is no evil in Job that prompted God to allow the troubles to come to him. In fact, it was Job's upright character that drew Satan's attention and God allowed it to show Satan that there are men who will worship God regardless of the benefits to themselves. Yet Elihu distorts Job's earnest complaints and desire for answers into evil speech against God.

But Elihu's greatest issue is not what he says, but that only God has the proper right to speak at that time. Only God can answer for Himself which is why the 3 friends stepped away recognizing Job's declaration for what it is. Yet Elihu, the "perfect in knowledge" steps forth to defend God rather than leaving Job to God.

The exact reason for the silence on God's part and Elihu's sudden disappearance after the speech leaves room to speculate, yet to take it either as endorsement or censure is adding to the text. All we can say is God didn't give an answer to Elihu.

 

[EleventhHour]

I believe that "predestination" refers to... when a person trusts Christ and His finished work alone, for salvation, they receive "the package deal" [ALL OF THIS: justification, sanctification, glorification... (etc)]

Sadly, how often has this correct understanding been repeated on every thread peddling Calvinism and the Calvinists refuse this truth.

This tells me that scripture is not the final authority for Calvinists, what is the final authority is the system and how scripture fits into it.

 

[EleventhHour]

Two Calvin quotes: "Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction."
– (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210) [...and...]


"Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231)

who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction."

Those that preach they were chosen before the foundation of the world...... this is their dogma even though they deny...

 

[Bbrdrd]

@Bbrdrd .....interpretation/ meaning please?...thanks.

As is typical, you're quoting a single verse devoid of the context as a pretext.

The key to John 6:65 is found in John 6:64 "there are some of you who do not believe. "

The entire chapter Jesus is dealing with people who think they are the people of God yet are not sensitive to God's teaching, which Jesus affirms in John 6:45 is directed at all.

So in both instances Jesus' statements are a denounement of their view of themselves as children of God based on their heritage and a linking of being God's with being amenable to God's teaching, to believing.

 

[EleventhHour]

QFT. = )

Learned something new

QFT = Quoted for truth