Not By Works

[EleventhHour]

These people to whom I have been referring to are not "Calvinists". They are conservative reformed Christians which are the bedrock of today's Church. For the most part they produce the fruit of the Spirit, possess the virtues, sobriety, common sense and discipline that Christ would have of them.

You know I have attended a few liberal "it's all about me" Churches in my travels. Quite frankly it gave me the willies and I beat a hasty retreat never to return. Nobody was going to convince me that they were legitimate Christians. Jesus was way way down on the list of priorities.

My concern is that the most vehement detractors of reformed theology on this board fit the liberal Church profile. A mixture of ignorance denial and rebellion in many cases.

False dichotomy "Liberal" and "Reformed"

There are many churches that are neither.....which preach the true message of of grace, neither legalistic nor liberal

 

[EleventhHour]

Sorry man but calvinism shuts out the Kingdom of Heaven against others by incorrectly causing doubt and destroying the hope of young, vulnerable Christians. I couldn’t care less if my words are deemed a slap in the face to anyone who embraces calvinism.

As well Bbrdrd also wrote on the "Calvinism and Context" thread what about being raised in that dogma and the damage it did to his well being over time.

 

[Duskey]

These people to whom I have been referring to are not "Calvinists". They are conservative reformed Christians which are the bedrock of today's Church. For the most part they produce the fruit of the Spirit, possess the virtues, sobriety, common sense and discipline that Christ would have of them.

You know I have attended a few liberal "it's all about me" Churches in my travels. Quite frankly it gave me the willies and I beat a hasty retreat never to return. Nobody was going to convince me that they were legitimate Christians. Jesus was way way down on the list of priorities.

My concern is that the most vehement detractors of reformed theology on this board fit the liberal Church profile. A mixture of ignorance denial and rebellion in many cases.

I concur that liberalism is a tool of the enemy meant to destroy people within the church. I despise liberal “churches” and the incredible havoc they create.

As far as vehement detractors on CC fitting the liberal church, nothing can be farther from the truth regarding me and the few others on here who detest the heresy of calvinism.

 

[VCO]

I am a very Conservative and Evangelical Southern Baptist, (though that is just the name of the denomination I am currently part of; I don’t divide along denominational lines), but the my denomination and some of the groups you spoke of are not as conservative as they used to be. The Reformed churches are also Conservative and Evangelical. Reformed are for the most part very conservative and only hypercalvinists are not Evangelical.

I know most of the Southern Baptist's are Conservative Evangelicals, but some have slipped to the liberal side. The main difference is on the Conservative side, NONE ordain women, and NO ONE believes tongues today are anything but counterfeit of the real McCoy. NO, I do not want to debate either of those two subjects. I can accept people who believe in them, but it is not my cup of tea. Those people are Liberal Evangelicals.

Here is the most famous Dr. Charles Stanley of a Southern Baptist Church:

https://www.fba.org/main/statement-of-faith

Dr. Stanley may be Retired by now, but the OPENING first line credits: mainstream, conservative evangelical tradition which is consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Dr. Stanley is one of my all time favorite BIBLE Teachers to watch.

 

[cv5]

I concur that liberalism is a tool of the enemy meant to destroy people within the church. I despise liberal “churches” and the incredible havoc they create.

As far as vehement detractors on CC fitting the liberal church, nothing can be farther from the truth regarding me and the few others on here who detest the heresy of calvinism.

I presume that you presume to know the whole truth of the matter of predestination?

You may want to at least ponder at the very least consider the possibility that some of these prestigious scholarly pastors of no small repute and unimpeachable conduct might know a thing two more than you do!

As might also the diligent Church members.

 

[OIC1965]

I know most of the Southern Baptist's are Conservative Evangelicals, but some have slipped to the liberal side. The main difference is on the Conservative side, NONE ordain women, and NO ONE believes tongues today are anything but counterfeit of the real McCoy. NO, I do not want to debate either of those two subjects. I can accept people who believe in them, but it is not my cup of tea. Those people are Liberal Evangelicals.

Here is the most famous Dr. Charles Stanley of a Southern Baptist Church:

https://www.fba.org/main/statement-of-faith

Dr. Stanley may be Retired by now, but the OPENING first line credits: mainstream, conservative evangelical tradition which is consistent with the teachings of the Bible. Dr. Stanley is one of my all time favorite BIBLE Teachers to watch.

A lot of churches, including some Southern Baptist’s have gone liberal. I do not put a lot of emphasis on denomination. I could just as easily go to a number of conservative churches. Any church that is Christ centered and believes the scriptures in totality.

Edit. It appears that I am using the word liberal differently than some here are.

 

[EleventhHour]

A lot of churches, including some Southern Baptist’s have gone liberal. I do not put a lot of emphasis on denomination. I could just as easily go to a number of conservative churches. Any church that is Christ centered and believes the scriptures in totality.

Edit. It appears that I am using the word liberal differently than some here are.

Agree, always good to define one's terms.

 

[Duskey]

I presume that you presume to know the whole truth of the matter of predestination?

You may want to at least ponder at the very least consider the possibility that some of these prestigious scholarly pastors of no small repute and unimpeachable conduct might know a thing two more than you do!

As might also the diligent Church members.

What happened to your smooth composure? I don’t like seeing you upset. As far as prestigious scholars go, the farther one goes away from Scripture, the farther one goes away from Truth.

There’s no such thing as a prestigious scholar who made the incorrect proclamation that God creates multitudes of people specifically for eternal damnation. Scripture says otherwise, as does the Holy Spirit.

 

[OIC1965]

Agree, always good to define one's terms.

When I use the word “liberal”, I mean in large part those who change the message of the Bible to fit the spirit of the world system of their particular day. In other words, a compromise that denies the Word of God to appease modern opinion and certain scholars falsely called.

What was God’s truth two thousand years ago is still Gods truth today. All of it. I know you believe that, im just kind of ranting.

 

[OIC1965]

I presume that you presume to know the whole truth of the matter of predestination?

You may want to at least ponder at the very least consider the possibility that some of these prestigious scholarly pastors of no small repute and unimpeachable conduct might know a thing two more than you do!

As might also the diligent Church members.

I don’t think any finite human fully comprehends the matter of election and predestination. I know I don’t, anyways. In this, we see in a glass darkly, I think.

The more I discover the more I find how much I don’t know. It increases trust and dependence in God.

 

[cv5]

I don’t think any finite human fully comprehends the matter of election and predestination. I know I don’t, anyways. In this, we see in a glass darkly, I think.

The more I discover the more I find how much I don’t know. It increases trust and dependence in God.

Amen brother. Or sister.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on predestination and election. I think it is a legitimately biblical doctrine. But yes, as you say truth be told in matters pertaining to the sovereignty of God and the choices He makes, they are far beyond us. That's His business. As for us we continue to forward with the Great Commission. That's our business.

I will say that this business about God not having any part whatsoever in our faith and ability to believe is patently unscriptural. You take that out of the equation and all of a sudden it's "all about us". Gives me the creeps. Ugh.

 

[OIC1965]

Amen brother. Or sister.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on predestination and election. I think it is a legitimately biblical doctrine. But yes, as you say truth be told in matters pertaining to the sovereignty of God and the choices He makes, they are far beyond us. That's His business. As for us we continue to forward with the Great Commission. That's our business.

I will say that this business about God not having any part whatsoever in our faith and ability to believe is patently unscriptural. You take that out of the equation and all of a sudden it's "all about us". Gives me the creeps. Ugh.

I agree that election and predestination are biblical. I hope everyone here can agree with that. They are in scripture.

Are people saying God has no part in our faith or ability to believe?

 

[OIC1965]

Amen brother. Or sister.

I think I've got a pretty good handle on predestination and election. I think it is a legitimately biblical doctrine. But yes, as you say truth be told in matters pertaining to the sovereignty of God and the choices He makes, they are far beyond us. That's His business. As for us we continue to forward with the Great Commission. That's our business.

I will say that this business about God not having any part whatsoever in our faith and ability to believe is patently unscriptural. You take that out of the equation and all of a sudden it's "all about us". Gives me the creeps. Ugh.

The verse directly before “not of works” presents the whole package, salvation and faith as the gift of God.

 

[cv5]

I agree that election and predestination are biblical. I hope everyone here can agree with that. They are in scripture.

Are people saying God has no part in our faith or ability to believe?

Boy are they ever. Should you start talking about how God provides us with the faith to believe, or how you have been appointed to believe, or how God predestinated us to believe from before the foundation of the world.........look out. There will proceed fireworks greater than the 4th of July.

No, according to them, the faith and the believing is a sacrosanct product conjured by up from within by sheer will, an innate inviolable essence of themselves and by themselves alone, something no man or God Himself would dare to so much as suggest or induce, let alone commandeer or bequeath.

Yeah it's a sore spot alright.

 

[cv5]

The verse directly before “not of works” presents the whole package, salvation and faith as the gift of God.

That's the way I see it.

 

[OIC1965]

Boy are they ever. Should you start talking about how God provides us with the faith to believe, or how you have been appointed to believe, or how God predestinated us to believe from before the foundation of the world.........look out. There will proceed fireworks greater than the 4th of July.

No, according to them, the faith and the believing is a sacrosanct product conjured by up from within by sheer will, an innate inviolable essence of themselves and by themselves alone, something no man or God Himself would dare to so much as suggest or induce, let alone commandeer or bequeath.

Yeah it's a sore spot alright.

I believe that faith is a response to the Gospel and the Spirit’s call. I also think that the Bible teaches that we only begin to desire God because God’s Spirit draws us through love and truth. Otherwise, we would still worship our carnal desires by nature.

 

[OIC1965]

I believe that faith is a response to the Gospel and the Spirit’s call. I also think that the Bible teaches that we only begin to desire God because God’s Spirit draws us through love and truth. Otherwise, we would still worship our carnal desires by nature.

God commands all men everywhere to repent. Why some do and some don’t is the question. I think 1 Corinthians 1-2 give a clue. That God chooses weak and foolish things.

If I want to catch a certain kind of fish, I use a certain kind of bait. God’s drawing is effectual to those who have been humbled and repels the proud hearts. Could that be part of it?

Maybe we should start a thread on this.

 

[OIC1965]

False dichotomy "Liberal" and "Reformed"

There are many churches that are neither.....which preach the true message of of grace, neither legalistic nor liberal

I never presented the two as a dichotomy. It would be strange if I did, since technically I’m neither Liberal nor reformed.

 

[OIC1965]

False dichotomy "Liberal" and "Reformed"

There are many churches that are neither.....which preach the true message of of grace, neither legalistic nor liberal

Actually there is a dichotomy, because the two are very different, but what I said was not a false dichotomy, because I never presented them as either or and I never presented them as the only two options.

 

[cv5]

I concur that liberalism is a tool of the enemy meant to destroy people within the church. I despise liberal “churches” and the incredible havoc they create.

As far as vehement detractors on CC fitting the liberal church, nothing can be farther from the truth regarding me and the few others on here who detest the heresy of calvinism.

A lot of despising and detesting being projected there buddy.
Did you happen to notice it yourself?