Are the words of Jesus not for Christians?

[lenna]

I think this is where, and this is my view, I think this is where people get caught up in labels and denominations and even choosing to follow their own heart/easy wide path. I know Im not perfect, far far from it, but I also know He is the way, and I don't care what someone heritage, social status, beliefs, etc, etc, etc, are I think all can gain from His words. Also I enjoyed the "exactly" So...

Exactly!

we certainly are not perfect. we were loved while we were still sinners, but our Lord does not see us as sinners now and this is the wonderment of it all!

some of us have problems believing we are loved for one reason or another, yet here we are told we are loved by the Being who created us and loved us in spite of ourselves

this is wonderful! the love of a Father

 

[Ahwatukee]

Let me address this particular misconception, which was part of the longer post you made to me previously.

Jews and Gentiles have the same plan of salvation now, which is 1 Cor 15:1-4

Correct! Both Jew and Gentile make up the church. However, the unbelieving nation of Israel is separate from the church which God is going to deal with during the last seven years decreed upon them.

When the Lord appears, all who have died in Christ, both Jew and Gentile, will be caught up and removed from the earth. After this God is going to deal with the unbelieving nation of Israel, as well as the rest of the unbelieving world.

The woman of Revelation 12 is symbolically representing the unbelieving nation of Israel who give birth to 144,000 believing Israelites. As the scripture states, the woman will flee out into the wilderness where she will be cared for 1260 days which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church made up of both Jew and Gentile will have be in heaven and will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ and will attend the wedding of the Lamb during the tribulation period.

 

[Forcemyhand]

we certainly are not perfect. we were loved while we were still sinners, but our Lord does not see us as sinners now and this is the wonderment of it all!

some of us have problems believing we are loved for one reason or another, yet here we are told we are loved by the Being who created us and loved us in spite of ourselves

this is wonderful! the love of a Father

I started typing out some of my pown thoughts but I feel I want to say, it is an amazing and cheerful prospect, His mercy is beyond understanding!

Psalms 117:1-2, " 1 Praise יהוה, all you nations! Extol Him, all you peoples! 2 For His loving-commitment is mighty over us, And the truth of יהוה is everlasting. Praise Yah!

 

[jb]

So, if I have not forgiven all others, God has not forgiven me and I am still in my sin? Do you really believe this is to the body of Christ? How do you pick and choose which teachings to apply as doctrine and which do not?

Let's go and cherry pick some Scriptures, God doesn't mind!

LOL!

 

[Guojing]

Correct! Both Jew and Gentile make up the church. However, the unbelieving nation of Israel is separate from the church which God is going to deal with during the last seven years decreed upon them.

When the Lord appears, all who have died in Christ, both Jew and Gentile, will be caught up and removed from the earth. After this God is going to deal with the unbelieving nation of Israel, as well as the rest of the unbelieving world.

The woman of Revelation 12 is symbolically representing the unbelieving nation of Israel who give birth to 144,000 believing Israelites. As the scripture states, the woman will flee out into the wilderness where she will be cared for 1260 days which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The church made up of both Jew and Gentile will have be in heaven and will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ and will attend the wedding of the Lamb during the tribulation period.

Yep, I know you believe in the pre-trib rapture, so you would understand most of what I stated.

The interesting doctrine you hold is that you don't regard the Body of Christ only forming with Paul being the first member. That is why you have difficulty accepting that Mark 16:16 was not directed to us.

 

[Guojing]

Because Yhshua/Jesus sent HIS DISCIPLES out to teach everyone at that point, Yahshua did not send unbelieving people to teach His message...

He sent His disciples...

Isn't Peter is one of those disciples, so what are you talking about here?

 

[Guojing]

and Jesus words are also to us

you don't have to agree, but what parts of His promises would you like to disagree with?

maybe this one?

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, John 11:25

perhaps He meant only that woman and she alone is saved?

you don't see what you are doing

I already quoted Matthew 15:24 and Romans 15:8 to you.

And John 11:25 was directed to Israel because he was going to raise Lazarus from the dead to prove to Israel that their Messiah is here in the flesh.

It is interesting you used that verse, because Bethel Church kept using that verse as applying to the Body of Christ, when they tried to #WakeupOlive in Dec 2019, and look what happened after that.

you don't see what you are doing

 

[Forcemyhand]

People need the words of the Messiah

Matthew 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, (Isa 13:10; Isa 24:23, Eze 32:7-8, Joe 2:10, Joe 2:31, Joe 3:15) and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (Hag 2:6, Hag 2:21, Amo 5:20, Amo 8:9. Isa 34:4) “And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, (Zec 12:10-14 and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds (Dan 7:13) of the heaven with power and much esteem. (Dan 7:14) “And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, (Isa 27:13) and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, (Dan 7:2) from one end of the heavens to the other. (Deu 4:32.)”

 

[Forcemyhand]

Isn't Peter is one of those disciples, so what are you talking about here?

Peter was sent to the gentiles

Peter saying he was sent to gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

The holy Spirit sending Peter to gentiles:

Acts 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.”
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You know that a Yehuḏi man is not allowed to associate with, or go to one of another race. But the Mighty One has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

Yahshua/Jesus sending the 12 to the gentiles:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

 

[Guojing]

Peter was sent to the gentiles

Peter saying he was sent to gentiles:

Acts 15:6-7, “So the apostles and the elders met to consider this statement. After a lengthy debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God chose me to be the one among you through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the gospel and believe."

The holy Spirit sending Peter to gentiles:

Acts 10:19 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.”
Acts 10:28 And he said to them, “You know that a Yehuḏi man is not allowed to associate with, or go to one of another race. But the Mighty One has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean.”

Yahshua/Jesus sending the 12 to the gentiles:

Matthew 28:19-20, “Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you each and every day until the end of the age.”

Its a simple question so I don't understand why you kept avoiding it.

If Matthew 28:19-20 really meant the disciples were to preach to all the gentile nations, the events in Acts 10 and 11 would not turn out the way they did:

• Peter would have no hesitation going to Cornelius house in Acts 10,
• none of them would be astonished that the Holy Spirit came upon gentiles at the end of his preaching,
• no Jewish believer would question Peter in Acts 11 why is he with the gentiles.

The simple conclusion is that the term "all nations" in Matthew 28 did not mean all gentile nations. As John 146 stated earlier, Acts 2:5 tells us what all nations meant, it means all the Jews that are scattered among all the nations of the world, and they were present in Acts 2.

 

[Forcemyhand]

Its a simple question so I don't understand why you kept avoiding it, if Matthew 28:19-20 really meant the disciples were to preach to the gentiles, the events in Acts 10 and 11 would not turn out the way they did.

Peter would have no hesitation going to Cornelius house in Acts 10, none of them would be astonished that the Holy Spirit came upon gentiles at the end of his preaching, no Jewish believer would question Peter in Acts 11 why is he with the gentiles.

The simple conclusion is that the term "all nations" in Matthew 28 did not mean all gentile nations. As John 146 stated earlier, Acts 2:5 tells us what all nations meant, it means all the Jews that are scattered among all the nations of the world, and they were present in Acts 2.

ethnos, that is EXACTLY what it means

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

You are operating under the pretense that the 12 could never make a mistake or have to be told something twice.

Peter just like ever native born Israelite grew up under man made law... What about after Yahshua's resurrection when they all thought He was a false prophet? Yet Yahshua explained everything to them AGAIN on the road to Emmaus...

 

[Guojing]

ethnos, that is EXACTLY what it means

“nations” is word #G1484 ἔθνος ethnos (eth'-nos) n., 1. a race (as of the same habit), i.e. a tribe., 2. (specially) a foreign (non-Jewish) one, Gentiles., 3. (usually, by implication) pagan., [probably from G1486], KJV: Gentile, heathen, nation, people, Root(s): G1486

You are operating under the pretense that the 12 could never make a mistake or have to be told something twice.

Peter just like ever native born Israelite grew up under man made law... What about after Yahshua's resurrection when they all thought He was a false prophet? Yet Yahshua explained everything to them AGAIN on the road to Emmaus...

Oh, so now you are saying that Peter didn't realized in early Acts that the instructions given to him in Matthew 28 was to every gentile nation as well.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Alright then, you believed that Peter, after spending 40 days with the resurrected Christ being taught everything about the coming kingdom (Acts 1:3), being well versed in the OT prophecy, somehow misunderstood what Jesus meant in Matthew 28, despite Jesus picking him as the Rock and the head of the called out assembly (Matthew 16:18).

We who are born at this time are able to look back and say, "That was what Jesus really meant, Peter was so silly not to have understood him as that".

Okay, I am glad we resolved our difference in scripture interpretation thru this exchange.

 

[Forcemyhand]

Oh, so now you are saying that Peter didn't realized in early Acts that the instructions given to him in Matthew 28 was to every gentile nation as well.

Now we are getting somewhere.

Alright then, you believed that Peter, after spending 40 days with the resurrected Christ being taught everything about the coming kingdom (Acts 1:3), being well versed in the OT prophecy, somehow misunderstood what Jesus meant in Matthew 28, despite Jesus picking him as the Rock and the head of the called out assembly (Matthew 16:18).

We who are born at this time are able to look back and say, "That was what Jesus really meant, Peter was so silly not to have understood him as that".

Okay, I am glad we resolved our difference in scripture interpretation thru this exchange.

Did I say that? Or did you take something I said and turn it into that?

I said it is possible, and Ill say likely, and yes a man that grew up their entire lives under man made law would have a hard time breaking free from it, just like the other 11 would have. But to say I our right claim that is not true, it appears that way but the info we have is limited.

However NONE of this changes the command Yahshua gave, if every person on the planet misunderstood it, that is of no relation to what was actually said.

You are exchanging misunderstanding of a human for clear words of Yahshua...

Yahshua say gp out to gentiles, if people choose not to that does not change what Yahshua said...

 

[Guojing]

Did I say that? Or did you take something I said and turn it into that?

I said it is possible, and Ill say likely, and yes a man that grew up their entire lives under man made law would have a hard time breaking free from it, just like the other 11 would have. But to say I our right claim that is not true, it appears that way but the info we have is limited.

However NONE of this changes the command Yahshua gave, if every person on the planet misunderstood it, that is of no relation to what was actually said.

You are exchanging misunderstanding of a human for clear words of Yahshua...

Yahshua say gp out to gentiles, if people choose not to that does not change what Yahshua said...

Didn't you state "You are operating under the pretense that the 12 could never make a mistake or have to be told something twice."

 

[Guojing]

Did I say that? Or did you take something I said and turn it into that?

I said it is possible, and Ill say likely, and yes a man that grew up their entire lives under man made law would have a hard time breaking free from it, just like the other 11 would have. But to say I our right claim that is not true, it appears that way but the info we have is limited.

However NONE of this changes the command Yahshua gave, if every person on the planet misunderstood it, that is of no relation to what was actually said.

You are exchanging misunderstanding of a human for clear words of Yahshua...

Yahshua say gp out to gentiles, if people choose not to that does not change what Yahshua said...

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the OT prophetic timetable, that the nation Israel was to be saved first, before the gentile nations could be reached by all the Jews?

If you are not, I can understand better why you would have this particular doctrine about Matt 28:19.

 

[Forcemyhand]

Didn't you state "You are operating under the pretense that the 12 could never make a mistake or have to be told something twice."

Correct, however I did not say I knew for sure.

That implies human error is possible and that people have to be told things over and over sometimes.

None of this changes what Yahshua said.

Yashua said go to the gentiles (ethnos)

It is of no consequence how it is viewed by anyone or if it was followed or not, Yahshua spoke. Period.

ow can you put Peters interpretation above Yahsua's words?

 

[Forcemyhand]

Out of curiosity, are you aware of the OT prophetic timetable, that the nation Israel was to be saved first, before the gentile nations could be reached by all the Jews?

If you are not, I can understand better why you would have this particular doctrine about Matt 28:19.

Preached to not saved. Simply given a chance to hear the gospel of the kingdom, and clearly by Acts 1 Yahshua had felt that was done or done enough....

 

[Guojing]

Correct, however I did not say I knew for sure.

That implies human error is possible and that people have to be told things over and over sometimes.

None of this changes what Yahshua said.

Yashua said go to the gentiles (ethnos)

It is of no consequence how it is viewed by anyone or if it was followed or not, Yahshua spoke. Period.

ow can you put Peters interpretation above Yahsua's words?

No, I am putting Peter’s understanding above your understanding of what Jesus really meant in Matthew 28:19

But we can agree to disagree here no problem

 

[Forcemyhand]

No, I am putting Peter’s understanding above your understanding of what Jesus really meant in Matthew 28:19

But we can agree to disagree here no problem

ok

John 14:23-26, “יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our stay with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me. These Words I have spoken to you while still with you. But the Helper, the Set-apart Spirit, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you all, and remind you of all that I said to you.”

 

[Guojing]

Preached to not saved. Simply given a chance to hear the gospel of the kingdom, and clearly by Acts 1 Yahshua had felt that was done or done enough....

What do you think of Zechariah 8 then? The timetable is spelt clearly there, from my perspective

From Zion to my people (vs 3-7), and then to other people (vs 20-23)

3 Thus saith the Lord; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain.

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;

20 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; It shall yet come to pass, that there shall come people, and the inhabitants of many cities:

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.