Does a prayer book give voice to our prayers or is it only rote?

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Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#21
Dec 6, 2016
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#21
soggykitten said:
Where in the Torah are Jews told they will attain eternal salvation by obeying God's laws?
Jesus obeyed the laws of God.
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I have read scripture saying that we never have and never will receive salvation by obeying God's laws, I don't think it can be anywhere in any scripture that disagrees with that.
No scripture in the whole bible disagrees with any other scripture, scripture is from God and God does not disagree with Himself.

People keep saying that there is no grace for Jews, that Jews are under law for salvation, and all such rot. But they never quote scripture to back up such claims because there is no such scripture. If they ask concordance to bring up the word grace, they would find scripture telling them of God's grace for the Jews.
 
S

soggykitten

Well-known member
#22
Jul 3, 2020
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#22
Blik said:
I have read scripture saying that we never have and never will receive salvation by obeying God's laws, I don't think it can be anywhere in any scripture that disagrees with that.
No scripture in the whole bible disagrees with any other scripture, scripture is from God and God does not disagree with Himself.

People keep saying that there is no grace for Jews, that Jews are under law for salvation, and all such rot. But they never quote scripture to back up such claims because there is no such scripture. If they ask concordance to bring up the word grace, they would find scripture telling them of God's grace for the Jews.
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I think we have to take into account that there are teachings within Christianity that fall under the header, Replacement Theology.
That then is where those people you refer to may have received their understanding that Christians replaced Jews as God's chosen people. And as such Jews are not saved by God's grace. Hebrews 10 should help such people release that errant belief.

With regard to no scripture in the whole Bible disagrees with any other scripture, that's not exactly so.
The account of Paul's experience on the road Damascus is one example that scripture, in the book of Acts, does contradict other scripture. Three different accounts of Paul's encounter there. One says he and his companions heard a voice from the light.
The other verse says the companions heard nothing but Paul speaking to the light.
We have to remember God didn't write the Bible he inspired the Bible to be written by men. And if we look to differences in Denominational doctrines we come to realize God's words can be changed by the minds of men.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#23
#23
The Lord inhabits the praise of his people....amen.
The pslams are actually songs to the Lord. The f.m. dial on God's radio he wishes to hear. There are corporate prayer and individual prayers which we should all be doing. To pray without ceasing. Prayer and praise go hand in hand
 
Blade

Blade

Well-known member
#24
Nov 19, 2019
1,783
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#24
I have one.. not that one. I like some because they use the word of God. Which is what one should always do praying.
 
H

Happy2020

Active member
#25
Oct 5, 2020
114
73
28
#25
soggykitten said:
Where in the Torah are Jews told they will attain eternal salvation by obeying God's laws?
Jesus obeyed the laws of God.
Click to expand...
I could show you hundreds of passages if you’d like? Anywhere from “the Torah is a tree of life”, “my ways are ways of peace/shalom”, “not to follow leads to curses, following us blessings”.

John 1 literally tells us Jesus is a walking Torah (He was the Word). That has deep esoteric meanings but at a simple level that’s not hard to see and that’s why it can never pass away. But Non Jews were never obligated to it, so it’s irrelevant if someone is not Jewish :) That’s why Paul was heavy against Non Jews jumping to be circumcised.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#26
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#26
soggykitten said:
I think we have to take into account that there are teachings within Christianity that fall under the header, Replacement Theology.
That then is where those people you refer to may have received their understanding that Christians replaced Jews as God's chosen people. And as such Jews are not saved by God's grace. Hebrews 10 should help such people release that errant belief.

With regard to no scripture in the whole Bible disagrees with any other scripture, that's not exactly so.
The account of Paul's experience on the road Damascus is one example that scripture, in the book of Acts, does contradict other scripture. Three different accounts of Paul's encounter there. One says he and his companions heard a voice from the light.
The other verse says the companions heard nothing but Paul speaking to the light.
We have to remember God didn't write the Bible he inspired the Bible to be written by men. And if we look to differences in Denominational doctrines we come to realize God's words can be changed by the minds of men.
Click to expand...
I think men can change God's words, but God never does. As we read scripture it is wise to look for God and man in it. Some say God tells us the law is only for sinners (aren't we all sinners), so if you aren't a drunk, a liar, a thief the law is not for you and scripture says the law is God's word. What men say has nothing at all to do with how God has it, it is up to us to find God in His word.
Happy2020 said:
I could show you hundreds of passages if you’d like? Anywhere from “the Torah is a tree of life”, “my ways are ways of peace/shalom”, “not to follow leads to curses, following us blessings”.

John 1 literally tells us Jesus is a walking Torah (He was the Word). That has deep esoteric meanings but at a simple level that’s not hard to see and that’s why it can never pass away. But Non Jews were never obligated to it, so it’s irrelevant if someone is not Jewish :) That’s why Paul was heavy against Non Jews jumping to be circumcised.
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The Torah is the books of the bible that explain God's ways, and the major, all important, basic way of the Lord is to offer salvation through blood. And the basic way of the Lord is grace from beginning to end of scripture. The idea that the Jews had to work their way to heaven is not in scripture.

Also, the idea that when we put on Christ and live through Him, that means that we are not to repent of sins is also not in scripture.
 
crossnote

crossnote

Senior Member
#27
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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#27
Blik said:
As I have explored the prayers of the Siddur I find it enriches my prayer life. Is this wrong?

This prayer book is called a Jewish Prayer book, and many say we may not copy the Jews. Does this make the siddur wrong for us?
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Let's take the Book of Psalms. It depends if you have your whole mind and heart engaged as you read, or just reciting rote.
Personally, I couldn't engage my whole being with a book not inspired by God or if I had doubts of it's origin.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#28
Jun 30, 2015
25,491
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#28
My opinion on using a prayer book is about the same as my opinion on buying someone a greeting card with poetry or a message already inscribed...

Lazy.

If someone gives me such a card, and doesn't specify that the words on the card accurately capture their thoughts, I will conclude that they didn't put much effort into it.

God is a bit more understanding and patient than me, but I suspect He would rather hear our own thoughts than the borrowed thoughts of someone else, no matter how incomplete, off-base, childish, or even foolish our words are. He hears our hearts and knows what is best anyway.
 
S

soggykitten

Well-known member
#29
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
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#29
Blik said:
I think men can change God's words, but God never does. As we read scripture it is wise to look for God and man in it. Some say God tells us the law is only for sinners (aren't we all sinners), so if you aren't a drunk, a liar, a thief the law is not for you and scripture says the law is God's word. What men say has nothing at all to do with how God has it, it is up to us to find God in His word.
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Well said.
There are a lot of misconceptions today it seems as pertains to God's law. Some Christians I've met say it doesn't stand anymore. Some say it does. Then there's the matter of the Jews and that inevitably enters in as, we're not Jews so it doesn't mean this or that.
However, Jews did not, do not, believe following the Torah saves their souls. They believe that following God's law makes them righteous in his sight. Faith saved/saves their souls.

I agree we have to look for God's truth behind the wording of men. Jesus demonstrated that beautifully I believe when he and his disciples were confronted by the Pharisee's for working on the Sabbath. This was Jesus way of showing people that doing God's work on the Sabbath is not disobeying the period of rest God decreed for his children. And it certainly didn't warrant death, as would often be the case under the rule of the law enforcement of the temple.

God is always writing his scripture in our heart. This I believe. He speaks to us in many ways. That's why it is a relationship and not a religion. My view of course. Others are certainly free to disagree. :)
God be with you.
 
S

soggykitten

Well-known member
#30
Jul 3, 2020
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#30
Happy2020 said:
I could show you hundreds of passages if you’d like? Anywhere from “the Torah is a tree of life”, “my ways are ways of peace/shalom”, “not to follow leads to curses, following us blessings”.

John 1 literally tells us Jesus is a walking Torah (He was the Word). That has deep esoteric meanings but at a simple level that’s not hard to see and that’s why it can never pass away. But Non Jews were never obligated to it, so it’s irrelevant if someone is not Jewish :) That’s why Paul was heavy against Non Jews jumping to be circumcised.
Click to expand...
Except Jesus told the masses, if you love me keep my commands.
The Torah doesn't save in Judaism. It leads the Jew to righteous behavior. Faith saves. Faith saved in the Old Testament as it does in the New.
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#31
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
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#31
Blik said:
As I have explored the prayers of the Siddur I find it enriches my prayer life. Is this wrong?

This prayer book is called a Jewish Prayer book, and many say we may not copy the Jews. Does this make the siddur wrong for us?
Click to expand...
Well firstly we are to not copy their way of being with God, the hebrew language especially the original one is a very beautiful and rich language if I had the mental capabality I would love how to read and speak it
But God can and will use anything to strengthen teach inspire and guide his children so can it? the simple answer is yes
 
S

soggykitten

Well-known member
#32
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
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#32
Blain said:
Well firstly we are to not copy their way of being with God, the hebrew language especially the original one is a very beautiful and rich language if I had the mental capabality I would love how to read and speak it
But God can and will use anything to strengthen teach inspire and guide his children so can it? the simple answer is yes
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Have you considered looking into Rosetta Stone to learn Hebrew?
 
Blain

Blain

The Word Weaver
#33
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
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#33
soggykitten said:
Have you considered looking into Rosetta Stone to learn Hebrew?
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No I have actually never heard of her I tried to learn to read it but whether it is because of the complexity of the language or my brain damage and learning disability it just was to difficult for me to grasp the language itself fascinates me even though I cannot memorize the letters and their language what I have learned about the language itself is very interesting
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#34
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#34
Dino246 said:
My opinion on using a prayer book is about the same as my opinion on buying someone a greeting card with poetry or a message already inscribed...

Lazy.

If someone gives me such a card, and doesn't specify that the words on the card accurately capture their thoughts, I will conclude that they didn't put much effort into it.

God is a bit more understanding and patient than me, but I suspect He would rather hear our own thoughts than the borrowed thoughts of someone else, no matter how incomplete, off-base, childish, or even foolish our words are. He hears our hearts and knows what is best anyway.
Click to expand...
But sometimes cards and prayers by sages say heartfelt things better than a person is able to do.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#35
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#35
crossnote said:
Let's take the Book of Psalms. It depends if you have your whole mind and heart engaged as you read, or just reciting rote.
Personally, I couldn't engage my whole being with a book not inspired by God or if I had doubts of it's origin.
Click to expand...
Most siddurs have instructions on how to use the prayers with the whole heart and mind. They teach against praying by rote. I have even read instructions to use visualization of the prayers.

You are so right, first you have to determine if the prayer is truly of God, and with the Psalms, you can be sure of that. They are much better for prayer guidance.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#36
Jul 31, 2013
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#36
Blik said:
As I have explored the prayers of the Siddur I find it enriches my prayer life. Is this wrong?

This prayer book is called a Jewish Prayer book, and many say we may not copy the Jews. Does this make the siddur wrong for us?
Click to expand...
the Psalms are 'a prayer book' of sorts -- i would hope they are more than just rote recital ;)
 
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