When Jesus 'broke the rules'

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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Just now, I am reading a book about resurrection accounts, and while explaining the historical circumstances, it cited Talmud "Any evidence which a woman gives is not valid" as beliefs of the Jews of the day, and Josephus confirming it. So Mary Magdalene and the rest of the women's testimony about the risen Jesus, according to the Talmud, should have gone down the drain and been considered invalid and a fabrication... women were not acceptable as legal witnesses in Jewish court, their views were very Muslim like in that regard.
Yah as to why you can do absolutely no harm if you only had the Bible. It provides everything needed.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,855
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huh

thank you moderators
That word :censored:
In this debate season, moderator is a trigger word lol. Wallace, Savannah, and now another fine individual. Where is my safe space and therapy dog? (Sarcasm implied)
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come forward.” Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him. (Mark 3:1–6)

oh no. on the Sabbath. the key to understanding this passage without taking sides with the Pharisees, is to understand the reason for the law given to Moses to give to the Israelites. reading the passage above today (read the whole chapter even better) we say we see the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, but what about those who insist Jesus was sinless and never broke any portion of the law?

perhaps the answer lies in priorities. or perhaps in a person's desire to be 'sinless' so as not be under condemnation

so why then, did Jesus heal on the Sabbath when God said to set that day apart right in the Decalogue (10 commandments) and do no work on that day ?
Now to complicate your question of why.......jesus said...he does nothing on his own but only what the father tells him to do.
 
Jun 25, 2020
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Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come forward.” Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him. (Mark 3:1–6)

oh no. on the Sabbath. the key to understanding this passage without taking sides with the Pharisees, is to understand the reason for the law given to Moses to give to the Israelites. reading the passage above today (read the whole chapter even better) we say we see the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, but what about those who insist Jesus was sinless and never broke any portion of the law?

perhaps the answer lies in priorities. or perhaps in a person's desire to be 'sinless' so as not be under condemnation

so why then, did Jesus heal on the Sabbath when God said to set that day apart right in the Decalogue (10 commandments) and do no work on that day ?
It is a sin to not do good when you have the opportunity to do so

In the passage Jesus asks “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the Sabbath Day”.

Imagine one Sunday morning a little girl from your next door neighbor comes running to you in tears on your way to church and she says, “May you please help. My mommy has fainted and she is lying on the floor.” (Imagine that you know CPR and have had some medical training). Then your response is “No, I cannot help your mother today because that would be work and today is my rest day and I do not work”. Then afterwards you happily go to church. Would you say such a thing or would you help the child’s mother?

Most people know that sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). But there is another definition for sin which is found in James 4:17. It says “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”(KJV).

I hope that in the scenario above, you would have decided to help the child’s mother, because it would have been morally wrong not to have helped her. Not to have helped her would show that you lacked basic human compassion. And if you would have helped her, then why was it morally wrong (a sin) that Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath Day?

James 4:17 says that It is a sin to not do good when you have the opportunity to do so. Jesus saw a person who was suffering physically and he helped him. If he had not, he would have sinned by not doing good when he had the opportunity to do so.

Pharisees understanding of the commandments of God

The Pharisees did not understand the commandments of God. The Pharisees viewed the commandments of God as a list of do’s and don’ts. They saw them as a checklist that must be fulfilled in order to earn God’s favor.

They also compiled a book called the Talmud which consists of additional human rules (traditions) that are not in the Torah on how to keep the commandments. Additional rules about what can be and cannot be done on the Sabbath were also included.
This included how many things you can carry on the day, how far you can travel, how much you can write and what they (not God) thought work was etc.
When they accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath, they accused him based on their own man-made rules and not God’s law. There is nowhere in the Torah that says that you cannot relieve anyone’s pain or suffering on the Sabbath Day. The Pharisees and not God had decided that healing is work.

What the commandments of God actually are

In Matthew 22:37-40, it says “Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Therefore the law, is loving God and loving your fellow man. And was Jesus showing love to his fellow man when you healed the man. The answer is yes.

What about the Sabbath day, which should be honoured to show our love to God?

The Sabbath a rest day, but is also not a do nothing day. You still feed your animals, dress and comb your hair and go to church. You do not stay in bed the whole day.

The Old Testament tells us what can and cannot be done on the Sabbath Day. You can read these requirements in Exodus 20, Exodus 35:3, Numbers 15:32-35, Jeremiah 17:22 and Numbers 13:15-16 etc. There is no mention of no healing.
The Pharisees has decided that healing was work as part of their Talmudic laws. Jesus’ life was not governed by traditions and human laws, but by God’s law. Therefore Jesus did not break the Sabbath in the eyes of God.

Isaiah 56:2 says “Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil”
So God requires us to do good on the Sabbath Day and that is what Jesus did on that day.

Further evidence that Jesus did not sin when he was on earth

  • In John 8:46 Jesus asked the Jews “Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?.” And they could not mention a single sin that he had committed and because they could not, they resorted to name-calling.
  • In Luke 23:4 Pilate said that he could not find fault with Jesus.
  • In Mark 15:14, Pilate asked what evil had Jesus done and the chief priests and people could not give him an answer, instead shouted that he should be crucified. In Mark 15:10, it says that Pilate knew that the chief priests wanted him to be crucified because of their envy. Therefore not because Jesus had committed any sin.
  • In Luke 23:41, one of the criminals on the cross said “And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man (Jesus) hath done nothing amiss.
Other bible verses that say Jesus was sinless
  • Hebrews 4:15 - For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
  • 1 Peter 2:22 – (Jesus) Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
  • 1 John 3:5 - And ye know that he (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

What the consequences would have been if Jesus had broken the law

@lenna , the fact that you believe that Jesus broke the law is an indication that you, like the Pharisees did not understand the law.
It also means that you do not understand the atonement and salvation.
Our salvation was dependent on Jesus being sinless and having obeyed all of the commandments of God.

In the Old Testament in order for sins to be removed, a person had to present an offering of a sinless animal like a lamb. The animal had to have no spot or blemish and the person would transfer their sins to the animal and present it to the priest and who would kill the animal and that is how a person was freed and forgiven of their sins.

God wanted to replace this sacrificial system. It was a temporary solution because the sacrifices had to be done every day. This is why Jesus came to earth. In order for Jesus to qualify to be a sacrificial offering, he had to be sinless and have no fault at all. This is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. (John 1:29).

If Jesus had sinned, then he could not be used as a sacrifice to atone for our sins. Meaning that he would not have died on the cross because his death would have been meaningless. Meaning that we would not be saved by grace through faith. Meaning that we would have to have our sins forgiven in the way described in the Old Testament to involved bringing an animal to the priest to be sacrificed.

Jesus’ obedience was critical to our salvation and if he had sinned, Christianity would not exist!
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
2Early in the morning He came again to the temple. All the people came to Him, and He sat down and taught them. 3The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst 4they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. John 1

Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret. John 18:20

The temple was built on the stone base; the temple mount stands today. Here are plenty of pics: https://www.google.com/search?q=tem...ECC0QBA&biw=1280&bih=579#imgrc=zjqdNCwHgSv_IM
thats fort Antonia, not the Temple Mount, again, I asked if you read history, I guess history means nothing to you
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ok I see she is banned, that did not last long lol
 
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lenna

Guest
That word :censored:
In this debate season, moderator is a trigger word lol. Wallace, Savannah, and now another fine individual. Where is my safe space and therapy dog? (Sarcasm implied)
you are safe in this space

I can loan you a cuddly big Siberian Husky. he is a little imposing because of his size, but he is just a love bug ;)
 
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lenna

Guest
@lenna , the fact that you believe that Jesus broke the law is an indication that you, like the Pharisees did not understand the law.
It also means that you do not understand the atonement and salvation.
Our salvation was dependent on Jesus being sinless and having obeyed all of the commandments of God.

well, I never said Jesus broke the law. in fact, just the opposite

you can go to the back of the class :)

imagine a person can insert themself into a thread, totally misread it but decide they need to teach others the truth when they have missed the truth being presented

oh wait. we don't have to imagine :rolleyes:
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand. They watched him to see whether he would cure him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him. And he said to the man who had the withered hand, “Come forward.” Then he said to them, “Is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to kill?” But they were silent. He looked around at them with anger; he was grieved at their hardness of heart and said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was restored. The Pharisees went out and immediately conspired with the Herodians against him, how to destroy him. (Mark 3:1–6)

oh no. on the Sabbath. the key to understanding this passage without taking sides with the Pharisees, is to understand the reason for the law given to Moses to give to the Israelites. reading the passage above today (read the whole chapter even better) we say we see the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, but what about those who insist Jesus was sinless and never broke any portion of the law?

perhaps the answer lies in priorities. or perhaps in a person's desire to be 'sinless' so as not be under condemnation

so why then, did Jesus heal on the Sabbath when God said to set that day apart right in the Decalogue (10 commandments) and do no work on that day ?
The Lord was doing a few things here, simultaneously.

He was showing His Authority. Over the Sabbath and over the Law.

He was showing that His Understanding of what the Law says is much Higher than the understanding that the Pharisees had.


The Lord was also showing us the "heirarchy" of importance in the law. Resting on Saturdays was not more important than loving and helping your neighbor.



It was not possible for the Lord to "break" the sabbath Law. Spiritually speaking, the sabbath law was speaking about what Christ would give His People.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,855
4,507
113
you are safe in this space

I can loan you a cuddly big Siberian Husky. he is a little imposing because of his size, but he is just a love bug ;)
The safest place to be is in the Lord's favor.

We just bought a Golden Retriever. Probably the best dog we have ever had.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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can you imagine that? and yet Jesus appeared to Mary first

this is a precious revelation of how God can just cut through all the stuff that bulls do inna field, and reveal His heart to women

we are accepted and beloved
Amen.

Interesting to note that five women were mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew 1. Not all of them were Jewish either...

Matthew
1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
1:12 And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
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One of the best frozen pizzas I've found. Generous on the toppings too. I usually have to add to but not with that one.
I like to dump a can of frenched green beans on top before I bake mine!:p
 
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lenna

Guest
The safest place to be is in the Lord's favor.

We just bought a Golden Retriever. Probably the best dog we have ever had.

well then you certainly do not need any of my pack. Goldens are great dogs

I kinda like the more 'edgy' ones, but Goldens are super sweet
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
A law breaker is a sinner.
Jesus nuked those old Laws. That is one of the things He came here to do. I hope you are not trying to do them all. Good luck with that. You will needs lots of it. Why not just plead the Blood? Just love God, love others, and trust in the Blood. Do a study on Christian Liberty.
 
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lenna

Guest
The Lord was doing a few things here, simultaneously.

He was showing His Authority. Over the Sabbath and over the Law.

He was showing that His Understanding of what the Law says is much Higher than the understanding that the Pharisees had.


The Lord was also showing us the "heirarchy" of importance in the law. Resting on Saturdays was not more important than loving and helping your neighbor.



It was not possible for the Lord to "break" the sabbath Law. Spiritually speaking, the sabbath law was speaking about what Christ would give His People.

(y)(y)(y)
 
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lenna

Guest
Jesus nuked those old Laws. That is one of the things He came here to do. I hope you are not trying to do them all. Good luck with that. You will needs lots of it. Why not just plead the Blood? Just love God, love others, and trust in the Blood. Do a study on Christian Liberty.
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