Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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soggykitten

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well that would be something

so I went looking

dunno, but I found the following in Grace Church's doctrinal statement (Mac's church)

Election. We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world, He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies (Romans 8:28-30; Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 1:1-2).

sounds pretty Calvinist to me :unsure: also, the biggest doctrinal statement I have ever seen in my life

site
Same here. o_O

Seems like JM is hoping to cover all his bases. Calvinism and LS?
What is Lordship Salvation?Lordship Salvation for Dummies
Lordship Salvation says that one must not only believe in Jesus as the Savior, but one must yield one’s life to Him as Lord of your life. According to Lordship Salvation, a person can believe in Jesus for everlasting life and not be saved because that faith must be joined by a commitment to serve Him one’s entire life
 

GraceAndTruth

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I looked at the dotcrinal statement for MacArthur......it is very calvin.
How does the Lordship salvation fit into that?
Maybe LS is just a way to express the natural change in the born again person, and outward expression of an inward change.
But I do not think we need to judge the servant of another.......everyone has their own journey.

Is he dispensational? that isn't calvinism.......nor is his premillenianism.
 

soggykitten

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yes

A far better response, in the form of a book actually, has been submitted by Dr Brown

the thing there, is that Brown admits to the craziness that can be found in Pentecostal or Charismatic activities, but to lump everyone together as demonically infested, is going way beyond just observation and becomes a personal crusade

personal crusade are my words...but a great book
I'll have to look for that one.



Driscoll's fall from grace made news later on too.
 

soggykitten

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I looked at the dotcrinal statement for MacArthur......it is very calvin.
How does the Lordship salvation fit into that?
Maybe LS is just a way to express the natural change in the born again person, and outward expression of an inward change.
But I do not think we need to judge the servant of another.......everyone has their own journey.

Is he dispensational? that isn't calvinism.......nor is his premillenianism.
Some journey's can lead followers straight to damnation.
Dispensationalism:belief in a system of historical progression, as revealed in the Bible, consisting of a series of stages in God's self-revelation and plan of salvation.

MacArthur also teaches every Calvinist should be a Premillenialist.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Some journey's can lead followers straight to damnation.
Dispensationalism:belief in a system of historical progression, as revealed in the Bible, consisting of a series of stages in God's self-revelation and plan of salvation.

MacArthur also teaches every Calvinist should be a Premillenialist.
The way Scofield explained it was that God dealt with His creation in diferent ways in different ages ....starting with the age of Adam
 

soggykitten

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The way Scofield explained it was that God dealt with His creation in diferent ways in different ages ....starting with the age of Adam
Early Christians believed in different ways also. See if any of these sound familiar even in these forums today.

Permanence of personal salvation
What the early Christians believed


What the early Christians believed:
The teachings of early Christians are important to us today. From circa 30 CE (when Jesus was executed) to 200 CE (the end of the first century CE), believers were not very far removed from the direct teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Various Christian groups during much of the first century had direct access to the teachings of Paul and the former disciples in the form of his lectures and letters. By the late first century, this knowledge had been passed on to elders (a.k.a. Church Fathers), who wrote extensively on matters of belief. None of these elders were great theologians; none developed intricate systems of codified Christian beliefs and practices. That was to come later in the history of the Christian church.

The early "mainline" Christian movement unanimously believed that a saved person could lose their salvation. (By "mainline" we refer to Pauline Christianity which gradually evolved into the established Christian church. Authority eventually became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome.) Early Christians believed that continued obedience was required of the believer in order to for them to maintain their salvation intact. Some examples in the writings from that era are: 1

Irenaeus (120 to 205 CE) was the overseer of the church at Lyons, France. He believed that a person could only be saved once. If they performed some evil deed, then God would permanently reject them. A Christian had "only one swing at the cat." Irenaeus explained this very clearly in his book "Against Heresies," Book 4, Chapter 27, Section 2:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."​
Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"
Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21:

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."​
He appears to have believed that an individual only attains salvation at the end of their life. Everything before their death are just steps on the way towards salvation. One might infer that a saved person could stumble in sin before they died and never attain salvation.​

Reference used:
  1. D.W. Bercot, "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity," Scroll Publishing, Tyler, TX, (1989), Pages 72-73.
 

OIC1965

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That's not my argument. Calvinism like Catholicism speaks a great deal about ' historical christianity ' and The ECF this and The ECF said that ..I find some interesting but I do not hold it to anything authority .
You’re argument is that Election was not taught before Augustine, ( which is incorrect btw) and depravity was not taught before Augustine...among the ECF, that is.

I’m not sure OSAS was taught among ECF before Augustine either.

So the basic argument you are presenting is inconsistent...
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
113
Early Christians believed in different ways also. See if any of these sound familiar even in these forums today.

Permanence of personal salvation
What the early Christians believed


What the early Christians believed:
The teachings of early Christians are important to us today. From circa 30 CE (when Jesus was executed) to 200 CE (the end of the first century CE), believers were not very far removed from the direct teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Various Christian groups during much of the first century had direct access to the teachings of Paul and the former disciples in the form of his lectures and letters. By the late first century, this knowledge had been passed on to elders (a.k.a. Church Fathers), who wrote extensively on matters of belief. None of these elders were great theologians; none developed intricate systems of codified Christian beliefs and practices. That was to come later in the history of the Christian church.

The early "mainline" Christian movement unanimously believed that a saved person could lose their salvation. (By "mainline" we refer to Pauline Christianity which gradually evolved into the established Christian church. Authority eventually became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome.) Early Christians believed that continued obedience was required of the believer in order to for them to maintain their salvation intact. Some examples in the writings from that era are: 1

Irenaeus (120 to 205 CE) was the overseer of the church at Lyons, France. He believed that a person could only be saved once. If they performed some evil deed, then God would permanently reject them. A Christian had "only one swing at the cat." Irenaeus explained this very clearly in his book "Against Heresies," Book 4, Chapter 27, Section 2:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."​

Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21:

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."​

He appears to have believed that an individual only attains salvation at the end of their life. Everything before their death are just steps on the way towards salvation. One might infer that a saved person could stumble in sin before they died and never attain salvation.​

Reference used:

  1. D.W. Bercot, "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity," Scroll Publishing, Tyler, TX, (1989), Pages 72-73.
Correct. Using the ECF, either their view on a topic or there silence on a topic is extremely dangerous
 

OIC1965

Well-known member
Sep 19, 2020
2,754
1,016
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Early Christians believed in different ways also. See if any of these sound familiar even in these forums today.

Permanence of personal salvation
What the early Christians believed


What the early Christians believed:
The teachings of early Christians are important to us today. From circa 30 CE (when Jesus was executed) to 200 CE (the end of the first century CE), believers were not very far removed from the direct teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Various Christian groups during much of the first century had direct access to the teachings of Paul and the former disciples in the form of his lectures and letters. By the late first century, this knowledge had been passed on to elders (a.k.a. Church Fathers), who wrote extensively on matters of belief. None of these elders were great theologians; none developed intricate systems of codified Christian beliefs and practices. That was to come later in the history of the Christian church.

The early "mainline" Christian movement unanimously believed that a saved person could lose their salvation. (By "mainline" we refer to Pauline Christianity which gradually evolved into the established Christian church. Authority eventually became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome.) Early Christians believed that continued obedience was required of the believer in order to for them to maintain their salvation intact. Some examples in the writings from that era are: 1

Irenaeus (120 to 205 CE) was the overseer of the church at Lyons, France. He believed that a person could only be saved once. If they performed some evil deed, then God would permanently reject them. A Christian had "only one swing at the cat." Irenaeus explained this very clearly in his book "Against Heresies," Book 4, Chapter 27, Section 2:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."​

Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21:

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."​

He appears to have believed that an individual only attains salvation at the end of their life. Everything before their death are just steps on the way towards salvation. One might infer that a saved person could stumble in sin before they died and never attain salvation.​

Reference used:

  1. D.W. Bercot, "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity," Scroll Publishing, Tyler, TX, (1989), Pages 72-73.
that’s why we believe in sola scripture. The ECF had many errors.

They said some good and they said some bad. Ok to read for historical info, but not sufficient to promote or reject a doctrine
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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Early Christians believed in different ways also. See if any of these sound familiar even in these forums today.

Permanence of personal salvation
What the early Christians believed


What the early Christians believed:
The teachings of early Christians are important to us today. From circa 30 CE (when Jesus was executed) to 200 CE (the end of the first century CE), believers were not very far removed from the direct teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Various Christian groups during much of the first century had direct access to the teachings of Paul and the former disciples in the form of his lectures and letters. By the late first century, this knowledge had been passed on to elders (a.k.a. Church Fathers), who wrote extensively on matters of belief. None of these elders were great theologians; none developed intricate systems of codified Christian beliefs and practices. That was to come later in the history of the Christian church.

The early "mainline" Christian movement unanimously believed that a saved person could lose their salvation. (By "mainline" we refer to Pauline Christianity which gradually evolved into the established Christian church. Authority eventually became concentrated in the five bishops or patriarchs located in Alexandria, Antioch, Constantinople, Jerusalem and Rome.) Early Christians believed that continued obedience was required of the believer in order to for them to maintain their salvation intact. Some examples in the writings from that era are: 1

Irenaeus (120 to 205 CE) was the overseer of the church at Lyons, France. He believed that a person could only be saved once. If they performed some evil deed, then God would permanently reject them. A Christian had "only one swing at the cat." Irenaeus explained this very clearly in his book "Against Heresies," Book 4, Chapter 27, Section 2:

"Christ will not die again on behalf of those who now commit sin because death shall no more have dominion over Him...we should beware, lest somehow, after [we have attained] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we [will] obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but rather be shut out from His kingdom."​

Tertullian (140 to 230 CE) was the elder in the church at Carthage, North Africa. He wrote in his book "On Repentance," Chapter 6:

"Some people act as though God were under an obligation to bestow even on the unworthy His intended gift...For do not many afterwards fall out of grace? Is not this gift taken away from many?"

Cyprian (200 to 258 CE) was an overseer of the church in Carthage, North Africa. Referring to Matthew 10:22, he wrote in his book "Unity of the Church," Sec. 21:

"It is written 'He who endures to the end, the same shall be saved.' So whatever precedes the end is only a step by which we ascend to the summit of salvation. It is not the final point wherein we have already gained the full result of the ascent."​

He appears to have believed that an individual only attains salvation at the end of their life. Everything before their death are just steps on the way towards salvation. One might infer that a saved person could stumble in sin before they died and never attain salvation.​

Reference used:

  1. D.W. Bercot, "Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up: A New Look at Today's Evangelical Church in the Light of Early Christianity," Scroll Publishing, Tyler, TX, (1989), Pages 72-73.
They held to quite a few heretical beliefs on baptism , the eucharistic evr
You’re argument is that Election was not taught before Augustine, ( which is incorrect btw) and depravity was not taught before Augustine...among the ECF, that is.

I’m not sure OSAS was taught among ECF before Augustine either.

So the basic argument you are presenting is inconsistent...
Why do you keep saying ' election ' as if it means something? Taught what about the word election or elected to do what ? ect
 

GraceAndTruth

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I reject dispensationalism based on the fact that God is immutable
 

throughfaith

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that’s why we believe in sola scripture. The ECF had many errors.

They said some good and they said some bad. Ok to read for historical info, but not sufficient to promote or reject a doctrine
Yes i agree . You won't find many calvinsts who don't sing the praises of Augustine.
 

OIC1965

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Yes i agree . You won't find many calvinsts who don't sing the praises of Augustine.
But they are also sola scriptures, which means the Bible always has the final say in what is true. They do not do that with Augustine.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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that’s why we believe in sola scripture. The ECF had many errors.

They said some good and they said some bad. Ok to read for historical info, but not sufficient to promote or reject a doctrine
My Point is that John Calvin followed Augustine which in turn everything else follows. Calvinists don't argue against this .