The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

Absolutely · Nov 1, 2020

I see it differently.

They did not bring extra.
That brings us to the difference. the difference being some had oil some did not.
Resulting in no light.
The buying is figurative. as is the oil and lamps.
It is a story within a story.

Jesus is coming for a bride that is holy,shining bright,separated,listening, and waiting.

Corban · Nov 1, 2020

Absolutely said:

OK. I accept that. We all deal with parables differently. But you'll have to then explain why, even when they had "bought" more oil, they were still banned from the Wedding Feast.

Also, you are still left with the definitions of ATTAIN TO, FOUND WORTHY and a PRIZE. And the RESULT of this is that when one says; "ATTAIN TO", it automatically means some did not attain to it. When it says; "that you be accounted worthy", it automatically means that you could NOT be counted WORTHY. And so on. The evidence is mounting.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 1, 2020

Corban said:

The parable of the Ten Virgins is quite clear.

The difference between the two groups (both professing Christians) is found in this statement: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

So a personal relationship with Christ is the key, and that leads to the indwelling Holy Spirit (represented in Scripture by olive oil).

Corban · Nov 2, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

I think that on this we agree. The love-relationship is key to entering the Kingdom (Matt.7:21-23) and the Wedding Feast as guest (Matt.25:12). But there are some points that are sometimes missed.

A Parable is a limited Picture. We may only take what is there, and not add. But in taking what is there, we may, and must, take each point to its logical end.
The first one, as you correctly said, is that ALL the Virgins are Christians. They are similar in seven points and only different in their appreciation of how extra oil is gained. The foolish thought that it was for free, as displayed by their asking from the others
The second is that if extra oil was to be bought - that is, a price paid, the wise Virgins "bought" before their death. They must have bought during their lifetime and that means (i) they bought on earth, and (ii) it took years. This fact then sets the scene for the whole Wedding. If the foolish ones had to "buy from them that sell", they would be on earth. This makes the Wedding Feast on earth because after they had bought they did not experience any other journey in returning to the wedding Feast. Some students have proposed that the Wedding Feast is in heaven, but this point precludes that theory. If it was in heaven then Christians would have to be Raptured once to the Bema. Then judged unworthy for the wedding Feast, then return to earth and spend some years "buying fro those who sell", and then be raptured again to the door of the Feast, only to be refused again. And then where would they go? Added to this, the Wedding Feast would seem to last many years of the foolish Virgins could spend say 20 or 30 years buying oil, as the wise ones did. In fact, by connecting it to the KINGDOM in verse 1, it could be that the Wedding Feast lasts the full 1,000 years.
The third is that a difference is made between "Lamps" and "Vessels". All had oil in their Lamps. The discussion afterwards was about extra oil in the Vessel. If oil is the Holy Spirit, and the Lamp is the spirit of man (Prov.20:27), what is the Vessel? This opens a new avenue of study.
Then, fourth, who are those that sell? And why are they not interested in the Wedding Feast
The fifth is that the Bride is not in view. The Parable addresses the GUESTS only. Seeing as the Parable of the Wedding Feast in Matthew 22 ALSO neglects to introduce the Bride, this omission is ominous. Ominous because in Ephesians 5 the Church is the Bride of Christ, and in 2nd Corinthians 11:2 we are engaged to marry Jesus.
Lastly, why TEN? I judge that the answer is bound in the context. From Matthew 24:32 the content of the narrative changes. From 24:1 to verse 31, we have all things Jewish. From verse 32 we have a Parable and the fate of "servants" and "virgins". The account up to verse 31 is EVENTS that will take place a the time of the coming of Jesus. But from verse 32 we have things MORAL. It records the work-ethic, faithfulness in service, and preparation for the Wedding by SERVANTS and VIRGINS. At the time that Christ comes, many millions of Christians would have lived and died - fallen asleep. So at the time of Chris's coming we will have dead Christians and those still alive. I judge that the TEN speak for the dead and the TWO in the field, TWO in the bed, TWO in the mill, speak for the LIVING. TWO is not only the number of Witness, but when added to TEN, make TWELVE - the number of God's People. This is decisive for a large number of the LIVING are NOT TAKEN✳︎ when the Son of Man comes, and a large number are refused entry into the Wedding Feast. BUT ALL ARE CHRISTIANS - SOBERING!

✳︎ It is crucial to our understanding of Matthew 24 to render the proper meaning for the TWO DIFFERENT words "TAKEN" in Matthew 24:39-41;

39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took (airo - Gk.) them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken (paralambano - Gk.), and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (paralambano - Gk.), and the other left."

For those "taken" by the flood" in verse 39, "airo" in the Greek is used. It means "taken away" like our sins were taken away. But those servants working in the field and mill are taken in a different way. The Greek, "paralambano", means "taken with like an intimate acquaintance". One could say, those "taken" by the flood were taken by malice in judgement, just as our sins were taken by the violent judgment on Christ. But the servant who was working and was taken, was taken like Joseph "took" Mary and the Child to Egypt - intimate companions who must avert a threat n Matthew 2:14. This is strong evidence of a Rapture that not all Christians partake of.

Absolutely · Nov 2, 2020

Corban said:

A relationship is built.
Things I do to keep and enhance it.

That is the believers walk

Hebrews 11 shows that it is faith that found them worthy to be counted in the hebrews hall of fame.

They COULD NOT have just done a short sprint at the end, And THEN squirmed in.
The 5 foolish were "incorrect" at JESUS'S coming.

When the rains came and the door was shut, Noah's son could not have beat on the door shouting "hey dad here are those animals you told me to get 2 weeks ago."
Some would say "hey he did do what he was supposed to do"

Too late.

When Jesus comes....THEN is when i am fould worthy ,or scrambling.

When the airliner is falling to earth we will either be worshipping or repenting.

But at the end ,it is too late to form any relationship.

"I know you not" was their answer.

"Know" is also what was said of Mary concerning her virginity. It was translated "intimate"

I don't know you < > we were never intimate.

The 5 foolish did not invest in Jesus.

The oil (Holy Spirit) always magnifies Jesus. No Holy Spirit investment.....no intimacy....no worthy for the wedding chamber.

The 5 foolish were unworthy due to the oil/Holy Spirit issue. No intimacy.

Corban · Nov 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

A relationship is built.
Things I do to keep and enhance it.

That is the believers walk

Hebrews 11 shows that it is faith that found them worthy to be counted in the hebrews hall of fame.

They COULD NOT have just done a short sprint at the end, And THEN squirmed in.
The 5 foolish were "incorrect" at JESUS'S coming.

When the rains came and the door was shut, Noah's son could not have beat on the door shouting "hey dad here are those animals you told me to get 2 weeks ago."
Some would say "hey he did do what he was supposed to do"

Too late.

When Jesus comes....THEN is when i am fould worthy ,or scrambling.

When the airliner is falling to earth we will either be worshipping or repenting.

But at the end ,it is too late to form any relationship.

"I know you not" was their answer.

"Know" is also what was said of Mary concerning her virginity. It was translated "intimate"

I don't know you < > we were never intimate.

The 5 foolish did not invest in Jesus.

The oil (Holy Spirit) always magnifies Jesus. No Holy Spirit investment.....no intimacy....no worthy for the wedding chamber.

The 5 foolish were unworthy due to the oil/Holy Spirit issue. No intimacy.

Thanks for the reply. I think we are about on the same page. Go well bro.

Wall · Nov 2, 2020

Absolutely said:

PROVERBS 6 [23] For THE COMMANDMENT IS A LAMP; and THE LAW IS LIGHT; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Corban · Nov 2, 2020

Wall said:

They could be connected, but the Law is always called "God's Law". In Matthew 25:1 the Virgins took THEIR Lamps. This would rather point to Proverbs 20:27; "The spirit of a man is the lamp of the LORD, Searching all the inner depths of his heart." See also Job 32.8; "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding."

I think that Proverbs 6:23 applies to the Old Testament saints of Israel, and Proverbs 20:27 to the New Testament saints. The rebirth is only in the human spirit (Jn.3:6), and this was done by "IN-Spiring" (Jn.20:22). But I could be wrong.

Wall · Nov 14, 2020

Nehemiah6 said:

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

yeah. It simply means what it says

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Same as the Word says in John 7. I go to Him that sent me. To the Father. Heaven. Jesus said we cant go there

Nehemiah6 · Nov 14, 2020

Wall said:

He said the EXACT OPPOSITE. But Scripture needs to be interpreted properly. That is called "rightly dividing the Word of Truth".

Wall · Nov 15, 2020

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15. In Matt.24 You find the LAST TRUMPET being blown and the gathering of Gods people {in the twinkling of an eye}

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

throughfaith · Nov 15, 2020

Wall said:

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] BEHOLD, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

scripture says that the “rapture” occurs as the LAST TRUMPET is blown.

MATTHEW 24 [29]IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we find a trumpet being blown after the tribulation period. You cannot have the LAST TRUMPET being blown before the tribulation or at mid tribulation if a trumpet is being blown AFTER the tribulation. Yes, the trumpet blown in Matt.24 is the last trumpet of 1Cor.15. In Matt.24 You find the LAST TRUMPET being blown and the gathering of Gods people {in the twinkling of an eye}

ISAIAH 27 [12] And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be GATHERED ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel.[13] And it shall come to pass in that day, that THE GREAT TRUMPET SHALL BE BLOWN, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, AND SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD IN THE HOLY MOUNT AT JERUSALEM.

The GREAT trumpet {also found in Matt.24} shall be blown. His people gathered. Its off to Jerusalem. To the kingdom. Not headin for heaven

So many trumpets.

Nehemiah6 · Nov 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

As long as you do not confuse the trumpet which heralds salvation with the trumpets which herald damnation. This is a rather common error.

Wall · Nov 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

So long as they understand which ones the LAST

Wall · Nov 15, 2020

Wall said:

So when is the LAST trumpet to be blown? Its a MYSTERY!

1COR.15 [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[51] Behold, I SHEW YOU A MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: FOR THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

MYSTERY—last trumpet {it shall sound} – The LAST one! – No more trumpets to be blown – Its the LAST trumpet!

REVELATION 8 [1] And when he had opened THE SEVENTH SEAL, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. [2] And I saw the SEVEN ANGELS which stood before God; and to them were given SEVEN TRUMPETS.

Seventh angel has a trumpet. It shall sound. Its also the LAST one to be heard. Its also AFTER the trib period

REVELATION 10 [6] And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: [7] But in the days of the voice of THE SEVENTH ANGEL, when he shall begin to sound, THE MYSTERY OF GOD SHOULD BE FINISHED, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

MYSTERY SOLVED! The seventh angel begins to sound. This is the LAST trumpet you find being blown in the bible

REVELATION 16 [17] And the SEVENTH ANGEL poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, IT IS DONE.

REVELATION 11 [14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. [15]And THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, THE KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD ARE BECOME THE KINGDOMS OF OUR LORD, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

As i said before, we do not flit off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. As the seventh angel sounds the trumpet the kingdoms of this world are to become the kingdoms of the Lord and thats where the Lord will bring us after meeting Him in the air. His kingdom, right here on Gods green earth

throughfaith · Nov 15, 2020

The first “trump” (not trumpet) is Reveille. The last trump—not “trumpet”: the trumpet “SOUNDS” as in Revelation 4:1–2, not Revelation 11.

Wall · Nov 23, 2020

PSALM 110 [1] The LORD said unto my Lord, SIT THOU AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL. [2] The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. [3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [4] The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. [5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH.

Well, ya see what the scripture says. Jesus will be at the right hand of God UNTIL His enemies are His footstool. Jesus is still there {at the fathers right hand} UNTIL His day of wrath. The Day of the Lord.

ZEPHANIAH 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. [18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Yup. His day of wrath IS the Day of the Lord. Will Jesus sneak away from the Fathers right hand 7 years before the Day of the Lord and bring us to heaven as the Rapturist claim. Or will scripture come to pass only as written?

Absolutely · Nov 23, 2020

Wall said:

PSALM 110 [1] The LORD said unto my Lord, SIT THOU AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE THINE ENEMIES THY FOOTSTOOL. [2] The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. [3] Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. [4] The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. [5] The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in THE DAY OF HIS WRATH.

Well, ya see what the scripture says. Jesus will be at the right hand of God UNTIL His enemies are His footstool. Jesus is still there {at the fathers right hand} UNTIL His day of wrath. The Day of the Lord.

ZEPHANIAH 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] THAT DAY IS A DAY OF WRATH, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, [16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung. [18] Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in THE DAY OF THE LORD'S WRATH; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Yup. His day of wrath IS the Day of the Lord. Will Jesus sneak away from the Fathers right hand 7 years before the Day of the Lord and bring us to heaven as the Rapturist claim. Or will scripture come to pass only as written?

Now factor in the bride.
And factor in all the prejudgement removal verses.

.....and the 2 escspe verses.

Then throw in the dialog at the last supper.

And lastly we see the church in heaven DURING the gt in rev 19.

How did they get there,and what is going on with the Jews being raptured up to heaven in rev 14.?

Ruby123 · Nov 24, 2020

I have had two dreams that I was going to get married. One last year and one this year. I believe it is referring to the rapture, unless I am getting married to someone lol. The last dream I looked at the time and the wedding was in an hour

KJV1611 · Nov 24, 2020

Wall said:

No one was allowed into heaven until Christ paid the price for us to enter. Enoch and Elijah went to Abraham's Bosom when God took them.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

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