The fourth beast in Daniel 7 who devours the whole earth?

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Hello Luigi!

Scripture makes clear that the four beasts represent consecutive ruling kingdoms:

Lion = Babylon

Bear = Medo/Persia

Leopard = Greece

It had large iron teeth = Rome

The above are synonymous with the Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Daniel 2

Head of gold = Babylon

Chest and arms of silver = Medo/Persia

Belly and thighs of bronze = Greece

Legs of iron = Roman

Feet of partly baked clay and Iron = Extended or revised Roman Empire (future)

All of the above are the succession of kingdoms, with the the feet with ten toes made of iron and partly baked clay being the last future kingdom headed by the beast/antichrist. The reference to iron is pointing to Rome and the partly baked clay is other people mixed with the iron so that it won't have the same power that it did when it was when Rome was in its heyday when it was pure iron.

The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast referred to in Revelation 17:12

You are all the same. You refuse to retest and open up Daniel 7 (for example) to critical analysis and discussion. Instead you stay rigid in your thinking and keep repeating the same things over and over again.

If someone challenges your argument you repeat your bullet points louder and more forcefully until they relent.

Lets discuss Daniel 7 verse by verse. Anyone willing or interested or are you just interested in repeating the same tired bullet points?

 

[luigi]

What you write is mere fortune telling and denies the Master (Jesus of Nazerath) who brought us out of spiritual slavery.

The Lord brought us out of worldly carnal slavery if we so choose to repent of our worldly ways, by which we will then follow and serve the Spirit.

 

[luigi]

There is no way to test your predictions, which are really the predictions that others have made. Do you understand that? Probably not.

I have merely posted correlations in Scriptures that lead to obvious assessments. Some who do not like what these logical deductive reasonings say, for whatever reason, often reply with disparaging comments, while offering no support for their denial of the assessment, or support for their own perspectives that deny the logical assessments based on the Word, thereby denying the Word.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Daniel 7 is Alexander the Great.
kingdom divided between his generals:
Lysimachus - Thrace/part of Asia Minor
Seleucus - Syria
Ptolomy - Egypt
Cassander - Macedonia


The prophecies/visions begin in chapter 7 are about successive empires that persecute Daniel’s people, the Jews, through several generations, from Babylon to the Caesars. Since the Angel interprets these visions, we do not have to speculate on who the beasts, etc. are. Mixed in with the persecution prophecies are prophecies about Messiah, and the eternal kingdom.

The false interpretations of Daniel come into play when the pre-millennists try to make Daniel fit their futurist eschatology.

Sometimes it’s hard to keep track of the “beasts”, “horns” etc because the prophecies sometimes swing quickly from one to the next.

 

[luigi]

Hello Luigi!

Scripture makes clear that the four beasts represent consecutive ruling kingdoms:

Lion = Babylon

Bear = Medo/Persia

Leopard = Greece

It had large iron teeth = Rome

The above are synonymous with the Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Daniel 2

Head of gold = Babylon

Chest and arms of silver = Medo/Persia

Belly and thighs of bronze = Greece

Legs of iron = Roman

Feet of partly baked clay and Iron = Extended or revised Roman Empire (future)

All of the above are the succession of kingdoms, with the the feet with ten toes made of iron and partly baked clay being the last future kingdom headed by the beast/antichrist. The reference to iron is pointing to Rome and the partly baked clay is other people mixed with the iron so that it won't have the same power that it did when it was when Rome was in its heyday when it was pure iron.

The ten toes are synonymous with the ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast referred to in Revelation 17:12

Good morning Ahwatukee,
Suppositions aside, The Lord God Almighty eliminating the kingdoms of the four beasts in Daniel 7:9, has yet to occur.
Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

The beast along with its mouth, the little horn have yet to be given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:11.
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

I say along with the little horn who is the beasts mouth being given over to the burning flame, even though Daniel 7:11 does not specifically mention the little horn being given over to the burning flame, due to the correlation that the little horn who is the fourth beasts mouth who speaks great things in Daniel 7, is also the beasts mouth who speaks great things in Revelation 13, who we then later see described as the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire with the beast in Revelation 19:20.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The Lord gives us these correlations in scriptures Ahwatukee, so that we may see through the devils false deception of us with his false illumination of what circumstances in the Word represent.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

In Daniel 7 we see a ten horned beast described, which is also described in Revelation 13 having seven heads. In Daniel 8 we see a he-goat with a prominent horn whose air force (without touching the ground) after defeating Media and Persia (corresponding with Iran and Iraq today) secedes into four kingdoms, represented by four horns.
Being the same entity with seven heads, the beast would then comprise seven horns (nations military's) prior to secession.
These 7 heads are the G-7 today.
Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

Chapter 8
Vision 2

1. Daniel’s second vision comes in the third year of the reign of Belshazzar, the king. Daniel says this vision is “SUBSEQUENT to the one which appeared to me PREVIOUSLY”. (Each successive vision enhances the previous ones with more detail.)

3. A RAM with TWO horns – Medo & Persia Empire
Each horn represents a king from these two countries, Media and Persia (the longer horn both horns were long, but one was longer than the other; the longer one came up LAST.

Though Persia became a kingdom again under Cyrus, who defeated Babylon and set the Babylon captives (Jews) free, and also ordered the rebuilding of the temple…. it had become dominant in 550 AD and was the persecutor of the Jews.

4. the Ram (Persia) “butted” - went conquering to the west, the north and the south, and could not be stopped.
Magnified himself = an ungodly nation

5. A MALE GOAT (shaggy v21)coming from the west (Greece).

The GOAT had a CONSPICUOUS HORN between his eyes: This is Alexander the Great, who “did not touch the ground”, a word picture of how easily and quickly he conquered every nation he invaded. He did as he pleased (was powerful) and magnified himself ( and he was boastful) His army swept over Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia from 334-331 AD….extremely fast for the times

6 - 7 Alexander quickly conquers the Ram (Medo-Persia), there is utter defeat, no more Medo Persia ( it did not rise again to power)

8. The Male goat (Greece) was the big dude on the block until the large horn was broken (Alexander died). Then up came 4 conspicuous horns, the 4 generals of Alexander who divided the kingdom among themselves……Greece is no longer a great power.

Ptolomy – Egypt

Cassander – Mascedonia/Greece

Lysimanchus – Thrace, which is much of Asia Minor

Seleucus (per chapter 7) - Syria

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Chapter 8

Vision 2

1. Daniel’s second vision comes in the third year of the reign of Belshazzar, the king. Daniel says this vision is “SUBSEQUENT to the one which appeared to me PREVIOUSLY”. (Each successive vision enhances the previous ones with more detail.)

3. A RAM with TWO horns – Medo & Persia Empire
Each horn represents a king from these two countries, Media and Persia (the longer horn both horns were long, but one was longer than the other; the longer one came up LAST.

Though Persia became a kingdom again under Cyrus, who defeated Babylon and set the Babylon captives (Jews) free, and also ordered the rebuilding of the temple…. it had become dominant in 550 AD and was the persecutor of the Jews.

4. the Ram (Persia) “butted” - went conquering to the west, the north and the south, and could not be stopped.
Magnified himself = an ungodly nation

5. A MALE GOAT (shaggy v21)coming from the west (Greece).

The GOAT had a CONSPICUOUS HORN between his eyes: This is Alexander the Great, who “did not touch the ground”, a word picture of how easily and quickly he conquered every nation he invaded. He did as he pleased (was powerful) and magnified himself ( and he was boastful) His army swept over Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia from 334-331 AD….extremely fast for the times

6 - 7 Alexander quickly conquers the Ram (Medo-Persia), there is utter defeat, no more Medo Persia ( it did not rise again to power)

8. The Male goat (Greece) was the big dude on the block until the large horn was broken (Alexander died). Then up came 4 conspicuous horns, the 4 generals of Alexander who divided the kingdom among themselves……Greece is no longer a great power.

Ptolomy – Egypt

Cassander – Mascedonia/Greece

Lysimanchus – Thrace, which is much of Asia Minor

Seleucus (per chapter 7) - Syria

So let us try to build on this:

there is a consecutive pattern between the first three beasts with no gap in between.

analysis on daniel 7:7-8
this consecutive pattern with no gaps continues with the 4th beast. There is no indication found in Daniel 7 to put a gap between Greece (3rd beast) and rome (4th beast). No reason why roman republic should be skipped. There is certainly no indication found in Danied 7 to place another gap - a huge gap of 2000+ years - within the 4th beast itself. There is no gap between the 4th beast with 10 horns and the 4th beast with 1 little horn. there exists no indication for this. false teachers have infiltrated the church in America and have imagined these gaps.

the fourth beast is diverse from all the other beasts indicating it is not an empire ruled by a monarch but instead is a republic ruled by many men. The 10 horns signify that the 4th beast is ruled by many not just one.
the 10 horns foretell of the Tribune of the Plebs which had power and authority over the senate. The roman republic was controlled by its first class citizens the patricians who ruled the senate. the tribune of the plebs was formed early in the republic and gave some power to the commoners or the plebians. this powerful body had power to veto or to introduce legislation to the senate.

The three horns uprooted is a foreshadowing of the 1st and 2nd triumvirate, the temporary political alliance of powerful men which facilitated the transition to the empire. Most or all members of the 1st and 2nd triumvirate were sympathetic toward the plebians or were plebians themselves.
the little horn is the rise of dictator and emperor of rome. First official emperor was Augustus who was both sympathetic to the plebians and technically a member of the plebians himself. all powers such as veto power and power to introduce legislation belonged to tribune of the plebs, but their powers were given over to the emperor.
10 to 3 to 1 is the transition of the 4th beast from republic to empire. 10 to 3 to 1 also foretells of the transition of power and control from the patricians (1st class citizens) to the plebians (commoners).

 

[luigi]

Chapter 8
Vision 2

1. Daniel’s second vision comes in the third year of the reign of Belshazzar, the king. Daniel says this vision is “SUBSEQUENT to the one which appeared to me PREVIOUSLY”. (Each successive vision enhances the previous ones with more detail.)

3. A RAM with TWO horns – Medo & Persia Empire
Each horn represents a king from these two countries, Media and Persia (the longer horn both horns were long, but one was longer than the other; the longer one came up LAST.

Though Persia became a kingdom again under Cyrus, who defeated Babylon and set the Babylon captives (Jews) free, and also ordered the rebuilding of the temple…. it had become dominant in 550 AD and was the persecutor of the Jews.

4. the Ram (Persia) “butted” - went conquering to the west, the north and the south, and could not be stopped.
Magnified himself = an ungodly nation

5. A MALE GOAT (shaggy v21)coming from the west (Greece).

The GOAT had a CONSPICUOUS HORN between his eyes: This is Alexander the Great, who “did not touch the ground”, a word picture of how easily and quickly he conquered every nation he invaded. He did as he pleased (was powerful) and magnified himself ( and he was boastful) His army swept over Asia Minor, Syria, Egypt and Mesopotamia from 334-331 AD….extremely fast for the times

6 - 7 Alexander quickly conquers the Ram (Medo-Persia), there is utter defeat, no more Medo Persia ( it did not rise again to power)

8. The Male goat (Greece) was the big dude on the block until the large horn was broken (Alexander died). Then up came 4 conspicuous horns, the 4 generals of Alexander who divided the kingdom among themselves……Greece is no longer a great power.

Ptolomy – Egypt

Cassander – Mascedonia/Greece

Lysimanchus – Thrace, which is much of Asia Minor

Seleucus (per chapter 7) - Syria

Good morning GraceandTruth,
The events shown Daniel in chapter 8 in regards to the he goat with a prominent horn representing the first king of Greece, who from the sky above annihilates a ram with two horns representing Persia; the angel Gabriel informs us in Daniel 8:17 & 19 are set to occur during the end times at the final indignation. These events also correlate with those in Daniel chapter 11 in which the kingdom of Greece is also referred to as the Northern kingdom, and the kingdom of Persia is referred to as the Southern kingdom, which according to the angel in Daniel 12:4 & 9 occur during the end times, at which time the information within these scriptures would then be unsealed, and many who would then be inquiring into the meaning of these scriptures throughout the world, their knowledge and understanding of these events would then increase. Our knowledge and understanding of these scriptural events is only today beginning to be understood. Some basic data. As the ram and he goat are metaphors for Persia and Greece, and the events in Daniel 8 and 11 are to occur in the final indignation end times, we can then further recognize Persia and Greece as metaphors. Where Persia previously existed, today is the land of Iran. And while Greece today currently exists, Greece being relatively next door to Iran, would mean its air force would not traverse the whole world from the west to annihilate Iran, as does metaphorical Greece in Daniel 8:5. Greece in the 6th century BC was the most technologically advanced nation and was where the concept of a democratic nation originated. The Greece in Daniel whose air force traverses the whole earth from the West to annihilate Iran can then be realized metaphorically representing a nation on par with that of ancient Greece, being the most technologically advanced, with democratic origins.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Good morning GraceandTruth,
The events shown Daniel in chapter 8 in regards to the he goat with a prominent horn representing the first king of Greece, who from the sky above annihilates a ram with two horns representing Persia; the angel Gabriel informs us in Daniel 8:17 & 19 are set to occur during the end times at the final indignation. These events also correlate with those in Daniel chapter 11 in which the kingdom of Greece is also referred to as the Northern kingdom, and the kingdom of Persia is referred to as the Southern kingdom, which according to the angel in Daniel 12:4 & 9 occur during the end times, at which time the information within these scriptures would then be unsealed, and many who would then be inquiring into the meaning of these scriptures throughout the world, their knowledge and understanding of these events would then increase. Our knowledge and understanding of these scriptural events is only today beginning to be understood. Some basic data. As the ram and he goat are metaphors for Persia and Greece, and the events in Daniel 8 and 11 are to occur in the final indignation end times, we can then further recognize Persia and Greece as metaphors. Where Persia previously existed, today is the land of Iran. And while Greece today currently exists, Greece being relatively next door to Iran, would mean its air force would not traverse the whole world from the west to annihilate Iran, as does metaphorical Greece in Daniel 8:5. Greece in the 6th century BC was the most technologically advanced nation and was where the concept of a democratic nation originated. The Greece in Daniel whose air force traverses the whole earth from the West to annihilate Iran can then be realized metaphorically representing a nation on par with that of ancient Greece, being the most technologically advanced, with democratic origins.

Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

The false interpretations of Daniel come into play when the pre-millennists try to make Daniel fit their futurist eschatology.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Good morning GraceandTruth,
The events shown Daniel in chapter 8 in regards to the he goat with a prominent horn representing the first king of Greece, who from the sky above annihilates a ram with two horns representing Persia; the angel Gabriel informs us in Daniel 8:17 & 19 are set to occur during the end times at the final indignation.

Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

definition of indignation: anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment.

the end of the indignation is the end of the Old Testament era. Those who lived in the Old Testament era were "indignant" because they had to stand against the schemes of the devil and his fallen angels without the purification of the blood of Jesus and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The people who had to endure during the Old Testament period had a reason to feel indignant for their more difficult situation.

Remember when Jesus of Nazerath walked this earth he declared that no one had undergone judgement yet. Jesus indicated that those in he Old Testament era will not be judged as harshly as those who lived in the New Testament Era.

Matthew 10:14-15
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

No one could stand before the Ancient of Days and be judged rightly until they were judged against Jesus after having been raised from the dead. Why?

recall Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The Judgement as depicted in Daniel 7: 9-14 could not and did not happen until after Jesus was crucified, raised from the dead (thus defeating satan) and ascended into heaven. Daniel 7:9-14 has already commenced.

Compare Luke 24:50-53 to Daniel 7:13.
The events in Luke 24: 51 happened already and the events in Daniel 7: 13-14 immediately followed.

Luke 24:51 While [Jesus] was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
Daniel 7:13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are all the same. You refuse to retest and open up Daniel 7 (for example) to critical analysis and discussion. Instead you stay rigid in your thinking and keep repeating the same things over and over again.

If someone challenges your argument you repeat your bullet points louder and more forcefully until they relent.

Lets discuss Daniel 7 verse by verse. Anyone willing or interested or are you just interested in repeating the same tired bullet points?

I stay rigid because the scripture is rigid. Daniel speaks about the four beasts represented first in Daniel 2 represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue, then in Daniel 7 as those different types of beasts. They are symbolically referring to the ruling kingdoms of the earth, with that last kingdom being the feet and toes made of iron and partly baked clay.

Do you think that God's word changes? Those symbolisms and the information remain the same, therefore, yes, their meaning is rigid.

It's called, contending for the truth.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

definition of indignation: anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment.

the end of the indignation is the end of the Old Testament era. Those who lived in the Old Testament era were "indignant" because they had to stand against the schemes of the devil and his fallen angels without the purification of the blood of Jesus and without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The people who had to endure during the Old Testament period had a reason to feel indignant for their more difficult situation.

Remember when Jesus of Nazerath walked this earth he declared that no one had undergone judgement yet. Jesus indicated that those in he Old Testament era will not be judged as harshly as those who lived in the New Testament Era.

Matthew 10:14-15
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

No one could stand before the Ancient of Days and be judged rightly until they were judged against Jesus after having been raised from the dead. Why?

recall Acts 17:30-31
30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The Judgement as depicted in Daniel 7: 9-14 could not and did not happen until after Jesus was crucified, raised from the dead (thus defeating satan) and ascended into heaven. Daniel 7:9-14 has already commenced.

Compare Luke 24:50-53 to Daniel 7:13.
The events in Luke 24: 51 happened already and the events in Daniel 7: 13-14 immediately followed.

Luke 24:51 While [Jesus] was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
Daniel 7:13 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

I quoted that in another forum......but again...Daniel 7

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I quoted that in another forum......but again...Daniel 7

what did you quote?

 

[GraceAndTruth]

Daniel 7
The prophecies/visions begin in chapter 7 are about successive empires that persecute Daniel’s people, the Jews, through several generations, from Babylon to the Caesars. Since the Angel interprets these visions, we do not have to speculate on who the beasts, etc. are. Mixed in with the persecution prophecies are prophecies about Messiah, and the eternal kingdom.
The false interpretations of Daniel come into play when the pre-millennists try to make Daniel fit their futurist eschatology.

Sometimes it’s hard to keep track of the “beasts”, “horns” etc because the prophecies sometimes swing quickly from one to the next.

Chapter 7
1st vision in the year 553 BC (the first vision is an overview of the prophesy)

1. Daniel has his first vision in the 1st year of Belshazzar’s reign as king of Babylon. This is 14 years before the fall of Babylon described in Chapter 5. Belshazzar was the son of Nabonidus, who was part of a group that assassinated the grandson of Nebuchadnezzar, and seized the throne.
3 - 8 Four great BEASTS coming from the sea, (the SEA being people) The beasts are the succession of the kings with descriptions of their reigns
v17 4 kings who will arise from the earth (they are men, not gods, tho they act like they are)
4. one like a LION with wings like an eagle, it’s wings are plucked, he falls to the ground and he is made to stand up like a man.
BABYLON …….intellect, strength and speed Jer. 4: 7
5. one like a BEAR, raised up on one side, three ribs in it’s mouth between it’s teeth (greed) 3 ribs, suggesst the expansion of the empire to the west, south and north….3 points.

MEDO-PERSIAN EMPIRE strong and fierce in battle Is 13: 17-18 “ arise and devour”
6 one like a LEOPARD and on it’s back 4 wings of a bird, the beast has 4 heads and dominion is given to it. Wings signify swift easy conquest (power)

GREEK EMPIRE (Alexander the Great)
The beast with 4 heads – Alexander is the beast….the 4 heads are the 4 generals who later divided his kingdom among themselves after Alexander’s death. The FOUR WINGS indicate that they came into power on the “back of Alexander”.

1. Ptolomy – Egypt
2. Cassander – Mascedonia
3. Lysimanchus – Thrace and most of Asia Minor
4. Seleucus – Syia

7. 4th beast – dreadful and terrible, strong with iron teeth (grabs hold and will not let go easily), it devoured, crushed, and trampled down…….arrogant. claws of bronze v19 ROME, the Casars reign

It was different from the other beasts…. One difference is that this beast brings religious overtones to their rule, making themselves to be gods (Emporer Worship)…..Another difference was the size of this beast’s empire, which extended from England to Egypt, they truly had conquered the world.

had 10 horns (the 10 conquered nations of the Roman Empire)
1. Heruli 2. Suevi 3. Burgundians 4. Huns 5. Ostrogoths 6. Vandals 7. Lombards 8. Franks 9. Visigoths 10. Anglo Saxons

3 of these fell to the other 7
(three horns torn out by the roots, which means
they did not rise again but their territory
stayed with the nations that conquered it)
These three horns are: Heruli, defeated 493 BC, Vandals, defeated 534 BC, and Ostrogoths, defeated 553 BC. These nations were swallowed up in the nations that defeated them.

verses 13 is the prophecy of Messiah to come, ……though these kings are powerful on earth, they are temporary,
but kingdom of the Lord is eternal, and it is given to the saints to possess forever. <~ Verse 18
(in the midst of all the persecution visions…God gives Daniel hope for the future also…through the coming Messiah and His gift to the saints…many of these verses pertaining to the coming kingdom are scattered among the verses on the persecution.)

Little horn comes up AMONG the 10 horns of the 4th beast. V19 boastful, eyes like a man – He holds a high position among men, his manner may be humble, but his appearance boasts of his position; and He sees with the eyes of a man, not with spiritual eyes. This horn comes out of the beast, the Roman religion .
“larger in appearance than it’s associates” …..it dominates the nations, yet is not a nation. ( Roman Catholic Religion?)
This horn becomes a nation within a nation…..not named among them, but not subject to any of them. Because of the Caesar rule, the roman church was made possible. Constantine desired to unify his conquered nations and used religion, much as the Caesars had used Caesar worship, to unify their nations. Since Christianity was a stronger influence by this time, a perversion of Christianity was tolerated by Constantine as the state religion to quiet the general population and unify them under the banner of a state church. However, Constantine was never a convert to Christianity, and remained a SUN worshipper, with much of the symbolism of sun worship being incorporated INTO the state church of Rome, ( this sop was given to Constantine for giving this apostate and heretical religion power over the people and power for themselves through the hierarchy of this religion.) and the sun is still an obvious symbol in the Roman church today.

the BEAST (collectively, the reign of all the Caesars) v23
*It wages war with the saints (the Caesars tolerated no worship but that given to Caesar)
*Speaks against the Most High – the Caesars tolerated no religion but their own and demanded worship to their claimed deity.
*He will intend to make alterations in time ….the ROMAN CALENDAR was introduced by Julius Caesar,and is a measure of time we use today.
And in law - “there is no law but Caesar’s law”
assurance that he will not rule forever, but will be destroyed (the foretelling of the end of the power of the Caesars
The BEAST is slain v 11 (the 4 kings/rulers) formerly great empires lose power and vanish into history This is the beast of verse 11…..the beast of FOUR heads.

verses 9-12 the Books are opened, it is the final judgement on the beasts (given over to the burning fire v12)
verses 17-25 the interpretation of the vision by the angel Gabriel (which means God’s hero) These are incorporated into the verses above.
25 He will speak out against the MOST HIGH and the saints of the HIGHEST ONE – He is blasphemous.
He will intend to make alterations in times and in law
(alteration to times came with the CALENDAR, an innovation of a Caesar)
alteration to the Law – the mixing of God’s law and man’s law

saints will be given into his hand for time, times, and half a time
3 ½ years….. time of Nero’s war against Jerusalem (also Nero dies 3 ½ yrs into war

26. The court will sit for judgement……his dominion taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. The reign of the Caesars comes to finality (as all governments serve for God’s purpose, this reign of the Caesars was also by His predetermined plan)
27 THEN the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of ALL the kingdoms under the whole heaven (earthly kingdoms) will be given to the SAINTS of the Highest One.
HIS kingdom will be EVERLASTING kingdom (as opposed to the earthly kingdoms) which all the dominions (all the ruling authorities will serve and obey. <dominion means absolute ownership of>
28 the vision ends….Daniel is alarmed.
Daniel has seen the persecution of his people for generations to come under the future world rulers. I sense that the glimpse of Messiah’s coming (those verses scattered among the persecution verses) was to give Daniel hope and lift his spirit as he takes in these horrible events that will fall on the Jews.

 

[GraceAndTruth]

what did you quote?

see the repeat I just posted

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I stay rigid because the scripture is rigid. Daniel speaks about the four beasts represented first in Daniel 2 represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statue, then in Daniel 7 as those different types of beasts. They are symbolically referring to the ruling kingdoms of the earth, with that last kingdom being the feet and toes made of iron and partly baked clay.

Do you think that God's word changes? Those symbolisms and the information remain the same, therefore, yes, their meaning is rigid.

It's called, contending for the truth.

Now you are going on a tangent wanting to discuss God's Word in general and the proper approach to interpretation.

Let us get back on point and that is Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 have spiritual truths in it.

Many fail to recognize these spiritual truths and this is where they skew into erroneous interpretations

Daniel 7:11
11 “Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire.

Daniel 7:11 is about the spiritual defeat of Satan at the cross. Daniel 7:11 is about spiritual truth, not earthly truth. But too many people aren't interested in spiritual truth. They want to hold fast to a literal interpretation of Daniel 7:11 and want to see an earthly literal defeat of some future empire. They want an earthly literal 1000 yr reign with Christ. But spiritual truth they are not interested in. Spiritual salvation they are not looking for.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good morning Ahwatukee,
Suppositions aside, The Lord God Almighty eliminating the kingdoms of the four beasts in Daniel 7:9, has yet to occur.[
Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Morning Luigi!

With all due respect, when Daniel says, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down" he is speaking from the time frame of the vision which is of the future. Do you actually think that either Babylon, medo/persia, Greece or Rome is still ruling? Daniel is seeing a vision of the future and he even says so when speaking to Nebuchadnezzar "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

In Daniel 2, he goes on to say that after those kingdoms, there will be a Rock (Christ) that is cut out of the mountain without human hands who will fall on the feet of the statue (which represents all human government), smashing it into pieces so that the wind will blow it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government. Then it states that the Rock that fell on the feet of the statue will become a huge mountain that will fill the whole earth, which is in reference to Christ's millennial kingdom (Dan.2:31-45)

The four beasts of Daniel 7 is referring to the same kingdoms, but instead of the symbolism of the statue, those kingdoms are represented by beasts.

The beast along with its mouth, the little horn have yet to be given to the burning flame in Daniel 7:11.
Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

The 'little horn' is in reference to the future antichrist/beast who is said will speak blasphemous words against God, which is synonymous with Revelation 13:5 regarding that beast who will be given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies against God. Compare the following from Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 - He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

Revelation 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The beast in the verse above, is in reference to that future antichrist and the beast who comes up out of the Abyss who will be the power behind the man of lawlessness/antichrist. The false prophet is that second beast who will be the head of that last day world religious system and who will deceive the inhabitants of the earth by the miracles, signs and wonders that he will be given power to perform. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that beast/antichrist and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

I'm not being adversarial with you, but giving you the benefit of my studies on this subject.

 

[luigi]

The false interpretations of Daniel come into play when the pre-millennists try to make Daniel fit their futurist eschatology.

You have the Gabriel in Daniel 8:17 & 19, and the angel in Daniel 12:4 & 9 informing us these events occur during the end times. I acknowledge these as such and realize events transpiring today would then have to correspond. Others who come up with some eschatology where these events have transpired in the past, in effect deny the Word the Lord repeatedly provides as their being so.

 

[luigi]

Morning Luigi!

With all due respect, when Daniel says, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down" he is speaking from the time frame of the vision which is of the future. Do you actually think that either Babylon, medo/persia, Greece or Rome is still ruling? Daniel is seeing a vision of the future and he even says so when speaking to Nebuchadnezzar "The great God has shown the king what will take place in the future. The dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy.”

In Daniel 2, he goes on to say that after those kingdoms, there will be a Rock (Christ) that is cut out of the mountain without human hands who will fall on the feet of the statue (which represents all human government), smashing it into pieces so that the wind will blow it away without leaving a trace, i.e. the end of all human government. Then it states that the Rock that fell on the feet of the statue will become a huge mountain that will fill the whole earth, which is in reference to Christ's millennial kingdom (Dan.2:31-45)

The four beasts of Daniel 7 is referring to the same kingdoms, but instead of the symbolism of the statue, those kingdoms are represented by beasts.



The 'little horn' is in reference to the future antichrist/beast who is said will speak blasphemous words against God, which is synonymous with Revelation 13:5 regarding that beast who will be given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies against God. Compare the following from Daniel and Revelation:

Daniel 7:25 - He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws.

Revelation 13:5 - The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them.



The beast in the verse above, is in reference to that future antichrist and the beast who comes up out of the Abyss who will be the power behind the man of lawlessness/antichrist. The false prophet is that second beast who will be the head of that last day world religious system and who will deceive the inhabitants of the earth by the miracles, signs and wonders that he will be given power to perform. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, that beast/antichrist and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

I'm not being adversarial with you, but giving you the benefit of my studies on this subject.

The Lord provides us with information about a two horned ram and a he goat with a notable horn, who in the same chapter the Lord informs us represent the nations of Greece and Persia. The reason the Lord provides us with the metaphors of the ram and he goat being Persia and Greece, is because Persia and Greece are likewise metaphors for other kingdoms during the end times that did not exist in the 6th century BC when Daniel received this information.

 

[luigi]

definition of indignation: anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment.

the end of the indignation is the end of the Old Testament era. .

The final end of the indignation is that of the Lord's wrath that shall fall upon the beast's worshippers. Still to come.