Can someone lose their salvation?

[Red33]

What I see is a literal hate for LBG is so severe that you will not agree with anything he says, Even if what he says is correct.

Jude spoke of a licentious christian.

4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. 8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.



10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12 These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[c] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

As james speak about those who say they have faith but has no works. These people are hearers only not doers. They are not saved. Thier faith was dead.

So unless you believe these people Jude and James condemned are saved, Which from what I see in your writings, you do believe these people are saved, I don't know why you are so hesitant to answer the question.

If this is your persuasion and interpretation of what you believe to be true concerning the grace of God, then you are what you are by your own understanding and who and what you have allowed to persuade you. Remember that God has not given us a spirit of fear or anxiety but of love and a sound mind. What is driving you and LBG to demand from me an answer that would only get me to sin by judging another?

The scriptures teach that I am to judge no man (Jn 8:15) (I take that literally) and that includes your sinning straw man that legalism demands sinners be judged. I will only judge that man based upon the cross that took all his sin and judged it on the cross through death. You want the straw man to be saved and transformed, preach to him Christ and him crucified and if he responds then you will have the outcome that you are looking for.

You want to judge this man without mercy, go ahead, but I will not, and I will be justified by my faith in God's ability to do the work of transformation through His redemption and the cross of Christ. Take that any way you want and judge me as you see fit, just like LBG, FOTA and others have done. Your judgment means very little and has no effect upon what the grace of God is doing in the life of sinners. God is calling, training and sending believers into all the world to preach the gospel, are you part of that calling of grace?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If this is your persuasion and interpretation of what you believe to be true concerning the grace of God, then you are what you are by your own understanding and who and what you have allowed to persuade you. Remember that God has not given us a spirit of fear or anxiety but of love and a sound mind. What is driving you and LBG to demand from me an answer that would only get me to sin by judging another?

The scriptures teach that I am to judge no man (Jn 8:15) (I take that literally) and that includes your sinning straw man that legalism demands sinners be judged. I will only judge that man based upon the cross that took all his sin and judged it on the cross through death. You want the straw man to be saved and transformed, preach to him Christ and him crucified and if he responds then you will have the outcome that you are looking for.

You want to judge this man without mercy, go ahead, but I will not, and I will be justified by my faith in God's ability to do the work of transformation through His redemption and the cross of Christ. Take that any way you want and judge me as you see fit, just like LBG, FOTA and others have done. Your judgment means very little and has no effect upon what the grace of God is doing in the life of sinners. God is calling, training and sending believers into all the world to preach the gospel, are you part of that calling of grace?

Well by your lack of answering. I must believe you believe a licentious person can make it to heaven. In which case you believe in a false Gospel.

You say we are demanding you judge someone. No we are not. For we did not give a name. We gave an example. Non of the apostles seemed afraid to judge a false gospel. Or judge how we can know someone is saved or not.

So your telling me if you saw someone you know who claimed to be a christian, but showed absolutely no works and no repentance. you would not go to that brother and question his faith, his repenantance and salvation and try to show him the truth? This is not judging him, this is trying to show him truth!

As someone said. Your type of christianity is what is wrong with the world today.

 

[Red33]

You seem to have difficulty understanding what Paul meant in the verse I quoted

Those are some excellent verses of scripture aren't they? They are just so edifying and give you such a desire for understanding and being built up in the truth. Any believer would be jumping for joy just to hear those scriptures impressed upon their heart by the Holy Spirit. And because we are saved forever and justified freely by the grace of God we can have hope in God's great mercy wherein he has regenerated us and given us an understanding...

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[Red33]

Well by your lack of answering. I must believe you believe a licentious person can make it to heaven. In which case you believe in a false Gospel.

I have given an answer but it is not according to your acceptance or liking and that is your problem, not mine.

You say we are demanding you judge someone. No we are not. For we did not give a name. We gave an example. Non of the apostles seemed afraid to judge a false gospel. Or judge how we can know someone is saved or not.

Nothing wrong in knowing if a person is saved or not, but I will not allow sin to be the determining factor to make me a judge the salvation of another man. You can, but I will not.

So your telling me if you saw someone you know who claimed to be a christian, but showed absolutely no works and no repentance. you would not go to that brother and question his faith, his repenantance and salvation and try to show him the truth? This is not judging him, this is trying to show him truth!

It's not our job to question a man's faith, but it is our job to give them the word and the gospel that will give them faith to believe the gospel of grace . We should always tell them the truth of Christ and Him crucified and have hope in our hearts.

As someone said. Your type of christianity is what is wrong with the world today.

What is in the heart will always be drawn out by the light of the truth.

Now you are an official member of the 'Strawman Club'. You should be happy that you can be with your own likeminded brothers.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism in whihc John the Baptist prophesied (He will baptise with holy spirit) vs the only other option of spiritual baptism left men (baptism of fire)

Baptism of the HS is mentioned in 1 cor 12 and romans 6. it is the spiritual act of God separating the wheat from the chaff. By cleansing the wheat.

The stuff pentecostles believe in is that baptism of the HS is what brings about gifts. This is a false belief. it is the annointing, Or comming into a believe which gives gifts. Yet this does not happen until after the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If your not baptised with the HS you will be baptised in fire. Which as John said shall never be quenched. Scripture says there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.

While I am an Absolute Continuationist, taking the scriptures at face value trusting that they are indeed the standard for Christian living, I do not take issue with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it is presented in the book of Acts as a sequential experience in the life of a believer. However, I take huge issue with the idea that God would dispense the gifts of the Spirit without dispensing the fruits of the Spirit as well.

Scripture plainly teaches that the primary role of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all righteousness (Christ - likeness) thus it only makes sense that the fruit of the Holy Spirit would accompany the gifts. I believe this to be a more accurate interpretation of what John the Baptist meant when he said that "he who comes after me... He shall baptize you wirth the Holy Spirit and fire." Throughout the old testement yet more specifically in Malachi when he speaks of the Holy Spirit he compares Him to refiners' fire who will remove impurities. - It really irks me to see people professing to manifest powerful gifts of the Spirit when this person so easily gives into bahavior contrary to the fruit of the Spirit.

While I have no doubt that Pentecostalism was a legitament move of God in it's early stages, it is obvious that as time goes by, it is falling into the same lukewarm complacency as every other move of God since the Reformation. Hypersipitualism will no doubt be the death of the Pentcostal movement just as it had done with the Quaker movement some 300 years prior.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now you are an official member of the 'Strawman Club'. You should be happy that you can be with your own likeminded brothers.

Lol. At least I am not like you..

So its a strawman to call something for what it is?

Funny how Paul and James and Jude were not afraid to confront truth. But you are. why is that?

Why don't ya just admit it?? Why are you so afraid? is it because of your hate for LBG that your afraid to admit the truth? Or is it just that you know I am right??

if you do not believe a licentious gospel can get someone to heaven. Just say so! Why is it so hard??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

While I am an Absolute Continuationist, taking the scriptures at face value trusting that they are indeed the standard for Christian living, I do not take issue with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as it is presented in the book of Acts as a sequential experience in the life of a believer. However, I take huge issue with the idea that God would dispense the gifts of the Spirit without dispensing the fruits of the Spirit as well.

Scripture plainly teaches that the primary role of the Holy Spirit is to lead us into all righteousness (Christ - likeness) thus it only makes sense that the fruit of the Holy Spirit would accompany the gifts. I believe this to be a more accurate interpretation of what John the Baptist meant when he said that "he who comes after me... He shall baptize you wirth the Holy Spirit and fire." Throughout the old testement yet more specifically in Malachi when he speaks of the Holy Spirit he compares Him to refiners' fire who will remove impurities. - It really irks me to see people professing to manifest powerful gifts of the Spirit when this person so easily gives into bahavior contrary to the fruit of the Spirit.

While I have no doubt that Pentecostalism was a legitament move of God in it's early stages, it is obvious that as time goes by, it is falling into the same lukewarm complacency as every other move of God since the Reformation. Hypersipitualism will no doubt be the death of the Pentcostal movement just as it had done with the Quaker movement some 300 years prior.

No one gets any gifts because of the baptism of the HS. The baptism of the HS is the act of the HS baptising us into the death and burial of Christ (rom 6). And also into his body (1 cor 12) It is where we are washed (titus 3:5) and our spiritual circumcision takes place (Col 2)

It is the annoining of the spirit in which our gifts are given. Not the baptism.. Many pentecostles call a baptism of fire the outpouring of gifts. they are wrong here also. The baptism of fire is a baptism of Christ. when he baptises all who reject him in the lake of fire.

All will be baptised by God, either via the hs through christ. or by christ into the 'fire that shall never be quenched)

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

No one gets any gifts because of the baptism of the HS. The baptism of the HS is the act of the HS baptising us into the death and burial of Christ (rom 6). And also into his body (1 cor 12) It is where we are washed (titus 3:5) and our spiritual circumcision takes place (Col 2)

It is the annoining of the spirit in which our gifts are given. Not the baptism.. Many pentecostles call a baptism of fire the outpouring of gifts. they are wrong here also. The baptism of fire is a baptism of Christ. when he baptises all who reject him in the lake of fire.

All will be baptised by God, either via the hs through christ. or by christ into the 'fire that shall never be quenched)

We obviously have different views here which is ok with me. Any time you would like to discuss this issue thus comparing the different views in light of scripture I'd be up for it seeing as you seem quite capable of defending your views both rationally as well as respectfully.

This topic is more my speed as far presenting scripture is concerned. I'm sure both of us could bring certain points to the discussion to make one another dig deep into the scriptures as well as personal prayer time in order to seek genuine truth. I view such discussions as iron sharpening iron. While we may not change one another's mind concerning our personal perspectives, such conversations give us a better idea of how to defend our views as well.

I personally do not like debating issues with those who can't keep their own carnality and emotions out of the discussion which is why I have blocked certain people who frequent this thread.

 

[zone]

I am not sure I would call it a strawman. I think he is just trying to get red to answer. Which I have yet to see red do...

LBG (who says Jesus is not God but a created entity) has been asking the same question for 6 months.
Red has answered it. many times.

but what do his answers matter since the Strawman isn't even real?

i disagree with Red on hermeneutics and eschatology therefore geo-politics()

but he knows the Gospel (which includes knowing that Jesus is God).

if he makes mistakes: WELCOME TO THE HUMAN FAMILY RED!

That parable you showed. The kid was a child living in his fathers house. probably abaying what his father said until he left. The point is, he was a son when he was home, He was a son when he left. And he was a son when he returned. He never stopped being the son, nor did the father stop being the father.

The man that beat his wife never did what the father asked from what I can see...

the point of the prodigal was how long was he gone from his father's house (sinning like crazy)? we aren't told, but he had long enough to blow his inheritence on HOOKERS AND BOOZE (which doesn't take long). then he endured a famine.....that could take awhile. then he found a job from a farmer and worked for while. we know he REPENTED while he was still AFAR OFF (could be a months journey...we do not know).

but. we know nothing of the Strawman, since LBG invented him.

we don't know about the Strawman's "faith" before he did those things, or if he had faith then. nor do we know the circumstances of the Strawman's life.

we don't know if the Strawman cries in anguish at night, we don't know if the Strawman ever really had saving faith (the Strawman's spiritual condition changes to suit the minutia of the debate).

I am trying to show a difference between a licentious belief and a true faith. Which to be honest. I do not even know what red believes in, after everything I have read from him..

but....that is the point.
we can no more set up a Strawman, give him some bad behaviour with nothing else known of him....and decide his eternal fate, then we can a real man.

maybe one moment after that Strawman appeared in LBG's imagination he suddenly saw the light and fell to his knees and begged forgiveness...and repented.

maybe the rumours of what the Strawman did are greatly exaggerated

i brought up King David as an example of a man WHO WAS IN HIS FATHER'S HOUSE....and was KING! yet conspired to murder, committed adultery, lied, deceived, AND did all those things in his heart before he actually carried them out.

the response was :

"OH! that's DIFFERENT! David was "a man after God's own heart".

huh?

is the Strawman any more a sinner than David?

maybe Red is wrong....but is this dogged insistence that he continually answer the same question over and over something a reasonable person would do? LBG denies the Deity of Christ.

i don't know why Red keeps dialoguing: he's gracious i guess.

 

[livingbygrace]

Those are some excellent verses of scripture aren't they? They are just so edifying and give you such a desire for understanding and being built up in the truth. Any believer would be jumping for joy just to hear those scriptures impressed upon their heart by the Holy Spirit. And because we are saved forever and justified freely by the grace of God we can have hope in God's great mercy wherein he has regenerated us and given us an understanding...

1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come , and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

It is hard to be built up in the truth if we have much pride in our life that produces anger in us when our views are challenged

 

[zone]

See I don't like these words, maybe it is the word you used (Obligation) Saying one has an obligation is saying one must work in order to recieve something.

I do not call it an obligation. I call it true faith which comes from true repentnace, which leaves true gratefullness for what we have recieved. This attitude brings about change. Not as an obligation. But in thanks for all Christ did for us.

now now EG.
you can't change the Strawman's issues!

he's LBG's and we have to argue about him based on his unchangeable characteristics.

if LBG says the strawman has an obligation to do something, that is the ground on which you must argue.



carry on.

 

[livingbygrace]

LBG (who says Jesus is not God but a created entity) has been asking the same question for 6 months.
?

Yep

LBG believes the Father existed before all including the son, but the son has existed before time as we know it began

Its nice to see Christians who believe they are suuch an authority concerning time before we know it began feel they have the spiritual authority to therefore condemn others based on an issue dependant on such time

Of couurse if a person claims a salvation experiance and shows no change in there life for years afterwards, no problem, that is different of course

And of course if a person will not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the required belief in him to have eternal life, that is no problem either, these things are acceptable, but believing the Father the one true God existed before all including his son is definately a no no

Oh the pride and arrogance of man AND WOMAN

 

[zone]

Well is Israel today going to heaven? We can't use a nation to show how God deals with us personally when it comes to salvation.

Second. Israel is not the harlot. She is not practicing idolotry or doing pagan ritual calling it Gods tradition.

third. Your right, that person would not be able to do those things. Yet why won't you admit it.

God is longsuffering. But a person who truely repented would not live a life of doing things HE KNOWS ARE WRONG without some sort of change. I can not buy that. Even if he stopped beating his wife because he felt bad. But still struggled with alcohol from time to time I could see him being saved. But that is not what happened. He showed no remorse. No sorry, Just lived his life like he was doing nothing wrong. Is that repentnace? No.

HOLD ON!!!!
that's not what we were told originally about the Strawman!!

nobody ever said he didn't know he was doing wrong.

and as far as i am aware, we don't have any medical records on him either. perhaps he was seeking
help from a certified Strawchiatrist.

those details would be nice. we don't know if he was in counselling, or in and out of rehab, none of that. also, perhaps his Strawwife was beating the stuffing out of him, and boozing it up with him as well. maybe their Straw Priest knew of it all.

how ridiculous.

forgive the Strawman, condemn him, or leave him to his Strawdeity and be done with it.



he still has a job to go to, i presume

 

[zone]

Yep

LBG believes the Father existed before all including the son, but the son has existed before time as we know it began

Its nice to see Christians who believe they are suuch an authority concerning time before we know it began feel they have the spiritual authority to therefore condemn others based on an issue dependant on such time

Of couurse if a person claims a salvation experiance and shows no change in there life for years afterwards, no problem, that is different of course

And of course if a person will not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the required belief in him to have eternal life, that is no problem either, these things are acceptable, but believing the Father the one true God existed before all including his son is definately a no no

Oh the pride and arrogance of man AND WOMAN

YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME THING...that's the whole point.
you do it in a softer tone.

get real LBG.

 

[zone]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the Baptism in whihc John the Baptist prophesied (He will baptise with holy spirit) vs the only other option of spiritual baptism left men (baptism of fire)

Baptism of the HS is mentioned in 1 cor 12 and romans 6. it is the spiritual act of God separating the wheat from the chaff. By cleansing the wheat.

The stuff pentecostles believe in is that baptism of the HS is what brings about gifts. This is a false belief. it is the annointing, Or comming into a believe which gives gifts. Yet this does not happen until after the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If your not baptised with the HS you will be baptised in fire. Which as John said shall never be quenched. Scripture says there will be weeping and nashing of teeth.

agree (i think). need clarification on the purple part.
do you believe the apostolic era gifts are in operation today? (i.e. prophets, apostles, miraculous healing BY THE APOSTLES)? and what about tongues? were they known languages? or something lese)?

 

[livingbygrace]

YOU HAVE DONE THE SAME THING...that's the whole point.
you do it in a softer tone.

get real LBG.

Oh I am content with the reality I have Zone. It is strange, you and Red believe you have so much knowledge in spiritual matters, you are both here to teach others, but neither of you will aceept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the neccessary belief in him to have eternal life.

So, are you both being led of the Holy Spirit?

The question is therefore. Would the Holy Spirit contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the neccessary belief in him to have eternal life?
If the answer is no, you and Red are simply speaking for yourselves

He who speaks on his own does so to gain honour for himself
John 7:18

So now we get down to the nitty gritty

 

[ActaSanctorum]

How is it that when these discussions come up, everyone seems to forget about the book of James?

 

[zone]

We obviously have different views here which is ok with me. Any time you would like to discuss this issue thus comparing the different views in light of scripture I'd be up for it seeing as you seem quite capable of defending your views both rationally as well as respectfully.

This topic is more my speed as far presenting scripture is concerned. I'm sure both of us could bring certain points to the discussion to make one another dig deep into the scriptures as well as personal prayer time in order to seek genuine truth. I view such discussions as iron sharpening iron. While we may not change one another's mind concerning our personal perspectives, such conversations give us a better idea of how to defend our views as well.

I personally do not like debating issues with those who can't keep their own carnality and emotions out of the discussion which is why I have blocked certain people who frequent this thread.

charismatics are the most carnal bunch in "christendom".

paying heed to doctrines of devils in thier lust for power and attention, they have accepted counterfeit "gifts", which means they do not understand the regenerating of the Holy Spirit at all.

cessationism just blows that whole "movement" out of the water....its the most unbiblical thing out there today, with Christ's Name attached no less.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

now now EG.
you can't change the Strawman's issues!

he's LBG's and we have to argue about him based on his unchangeable characteristics.

if LBG says the strawman has an obligation to do something, that is the ground on which you must argue.



carry on.

I just try to stick with facts as I see them, or at least scripture.

As for your comment about red. Yes I know LBG does not believe Jesus is God, We disagree on this issue. Like you and I disagree dan 9 has been completely fulfilled. It does not mean we can't agree on other things. Like we have shown to do.

I don't call what LBG said to red a strawman because it is a perfectly legitament question. It is an example of a licentious person who claimed to have faith. This is not like David. David loved God. did many things for him, SHowed he was a son. Then commited those sins. The person in LBG's example never showed any love for God, or did what he wanted. See the difference??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

agree (i think). need clarification on the purple part.
do you believe the apostolic era gifts are in operation today? (i.e. prophets, apostles, miraculous healing BY THE APOSTLES)? and what about tongues? were they known languages? or something lese)?

To annoint means to come in or come on.

It was prefigured by the pouring of holy oil on the priest and high priest in the levitical law.

When the HS enters you to dwell in you. You are said to be annointed.

This annointment gives many things.

The seal of the spirit.
the guidance of the spirit
God in you.
spiritual gifts.
etc etc.

Gifts are just one thing which the annointment brings. and this is another subject I will not dwell on here.