A saving faith vs a dead faith

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"Dispensationalism" is wrong, God transcends time, is eternal and almighty and has always, and will always grant salvation by his grace.

God's salvation throughout the ages has always been by grace, and never, ever, in any "dispensation", by self-righteousness.

The imputed righteousness of his Son on the cross is for those who received salvation of all who ever lived, currently live, or will live - it is not a "dispensation", but an eternal truth, it transcends time, and our names have been written in the book of salvation before the foundation of the world. How do you think was Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets saved to be in God's Kingdom, other than the sacrificial offering of God's son Christ Yeshua? The sacrificial offering of animals could never pay like-for-like for any man's sins. The sacrificial offerings pointed to what God's son Christ Yeshua would accomplish for us on the cross. There will even again be remembrance sacrificial offerings in future, in Ezekiel's prophesied temple, again pointing back to what God's son Christ Yeshua accomplished already for us on the cross (Ezekiel 46:20).


Luke 13 (ESV)


28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out.


Ephesians 1 (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


Ezekiel 46 (ESV)


20 And he said to me, "This is the place where the priests shall boil the guilt offering and the sin offering, and where they shall bake the grain offering, in order not to bring them out into the outer court and so transmit holiness to the people."
Salvation is always by grace from God, but our responsibility is to respond in faith.

I already mentioned the examples in Hebrews 11, how the OT saints showed faith in God before the cross.

If Noah believed God that a flood is coming, but show no works, i.e not building an ark, his family and him would have perished.

As James would say for him, his faith without works could not save him.
 

BenjaminN

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Salvation is always by grace from God, but our responsibility is to respond in faith.

I already mentioned the examples in Hebrews 11, how the OT saints showed faith in God before the cross.

If Noah believed God that a flood is coming, but show no works, i.e not building an ark, his family and him would have perished.

As James would say for him, his faith without works could not save him.

Agreed, maybe just to stress, our faith is not our own doing, it is the gift of God - ie. if you have faith in Christ Yeshua, dying for our sins on the cross, your beliefs in such, had been granted to you by God, before the foundation of the world.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Agreed, maybe just to stress, our faith is not our own doing, it is the gift of God - ie. if you have faith in Christ Yeshua, dying for our sins on the cross, your beliefs in such, had been granted to you by God, before the foundation of the world.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
I can agree, its very easy for us to be saved now in this dispensation because we can rely just on Christ finished work.

But as I have said before, during the Tribulation, believe in Christ is no longer sufficient, obeying what God commands also includes, among other works, not taking the mark of the beast.

To show faith in God, during the Tribulation, means meeting additional requirements. By meeting them, God sees that as faith in him, and he saves us because of that faith too.
 

BenjaminN

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I can agree, its very easy for us to be saved now in this dispensation because we can rely just on Christ finished work.
By your own fruits you will know yourself, if you are a beneficiary of God's saving grace, and whether you have received that kind of childlike, eternal, unwavering faith, which is the gift of the eternal God, traversing all manly dispensations.


Matthew 7 (ESV)


21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


1 Peter 1 (ESV)


20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
 
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By your own fruits you will know yourself, if you are a beneficiary of God's saving grace, and whether you have received that kind of childlike, eternal, unwavering faith, which is the gift of the eternal God, traversing all manly dispensations.


Matthew 7 (ESV)


21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


1 Peter 1 (ESV)


20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Both Matthew and 1 Peter was written to Israel, so they are not directly written as doctrine for the Body of Christ now.

But since you quoted 1 Peter, to give you an example why I said the above, have you realized in chapter 4, Peter told Israel

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved. Thus, even if you believe in Jesus during the Tribulation, your salvation is not guaranteed.

Paul does not teach the Body of Christ that. We are saved the moment we believe in his death burial and resurrection for our sins.
 

throughfaith

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Actually it just means the person who claims that faith but shows no works has never had real faith.
Belief is a work, studying the bible to be approved by God is a work.....not every work has to involve some ministry or other.
God save us from the church of perpetual motion. (and the church of perpetual EMOTION.)
1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that [a]it would be evident that they all are not of us.
Beilef is not a work . Just the very idea should intuitively be recognised as a strange concept .
 

BenjaminN

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Both Matthew and 1 Peter was written to Israel, so they are not directly written as doctrine for the Body of Christ now.

But since you quoted 1 Peter, to give you an example why I said the above, have you realized in chapter 4, Peter told Israel

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Vs 18 is very enlightening when I came across it for the first time. According to Peter, there is no such thing as OSAS. Even one who is righteous can scarcely be saved. Thus, even if you believe in Jesus during the Tribulation, your salvation is not guaranteed.

Paul does not teach the Body of Christ that. We are saved the moment we believe in his death burial and resurrection for our sins.

That's another error of your "dispensationalism", trying to separate the Body of Christ from the Gentiles grafted into renewed Israel, when in Christ Yeshua they are made one. Read the whole of the chapter of Romans 11 and Ephesians 2:


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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That's another error of your "dispensationalism", trying to separate the Body of Christ from the Gentiles grafted into renewed Israel, when in Christ Yeshua they are made one. Read the whole of the chapter of Romans 11 and Ephesians 2:


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
You believe the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel"?
 

BenjaminN

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You believe the Body of Christ is "spiritual Israel"?
As we are both physical and spiritual beings, I believe that Christ Yeshua is head of his physical and spiritual body, the Church, of which the Gentiles and the Israel he came to renew is part of, so that in the fulness of time, he will be the King of the restored Israel, into which Gentiles are grafted into, when they make Christ Yeshua their King as well, as will Israel when they come out of their partial hardening (Romans 11:25).


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."


Romans 11 (ESV)


1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and bend their backs forever." 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. 25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
 
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As we are both physical and spiritual beings, I believe that Christ Yeshua is head of his physical and spiritual body, the Church, of which the Gentiles and the Israel he came to renew is part of, so that in the fulness of time, he will be the King of the restored Israel, into which Gentiles are grafted into, when they make Christ Yeshua their King as well, as will Israel when they come out of their partial hardening (Romans 11:25).
So are you answering with a Yes, the Body of Christ is Israel?
 

BenjaminN

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So are you answering with a Yes, the Body of Christ is Israel?
Yes, Israel is being restored as the Body of Christ.

Some Jews (not all), and some Gentiles (not all) alike, is grafted in, during the restoration of Israel, forming the Body of Christ, and culminating in the restored Kingdom of Israel, under Kingship of Christ Yeshua, at the fulness of time.


Galatians 3 (ESV)


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

Guest
I said thank you Jesus this morning upon waking up, how many saving faith points is that worth?
How many do you need to be saved?
 

BenjaminN

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I said thank you Jesus this morning upon waking up, how many saving faith points is that worth?
How many do you need to be saved?
We don't need to count brother, God prepared our lives to live our thank you Jesus.


Ephesians 2 (ESV)


10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


James 2 (ESV)


17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Yes, Israel is being restored as the Body of Christ.

Some Jews (not all), and some Gentiles (not all) alike, is grafted in, during the restoration of Israel, forming the Body of Christ, and culminating in the restored Kingdom of Israel, under Kingship of Christ Yeshua, at the fulness of time.


Galatians 3 (ESV)


28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
Yep, then naturally, we will disagree there.

I believe the Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the nation Israel after the Tribulation.
 

BenjaminN

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Yep, then naturally, we will disagree there.

I believe the Body of Christ has a separate destiny from the nation Israel after the Tribulation.
You put words in my mouth (see your bold text above), and that is bearing false witness.

The "nation of Israel" is not the Israel me nor Romans 11 is referring to (is it to you?). The Restored Kingdom of Israel, under Kingship of Christ Yeshua, is obviously for his Body of believers in Christ. How can you separate Christ Yeshua from his body of believers, grafted into the restored Israel from all "in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."?


Acts 1 (ESV)


6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."
 

GraceAndTruth

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Beilef is not a work . Just the very idea should intuitively be recognised as a strange concept .
When the disciples asked Jesus......what work must we do to be saved?
Jesus gave a one answer - "BELIEVE"

John 6: 28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
 

throughfaith

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When the disciples asked Jesus......what work must we do to be saved?
Jesus gave a one answer - "BELIEVE"

John 6: 28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
New testament. Rom 3
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27¶Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

1) of works?
2) law of faith

notice the contrast?

Faith is not ' works ' .
Then read rom 4 and see it contrasted. Works and faith . OPPOSITE .
 

throughfaith

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When the disciples asked Jesus......what work must we do to be saved?
Jesus gave a one answer - "BELIEVE"

John 6: 28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
I take it you have a bible that has the books of the new testament ?
 

BenjaminN

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GraceAndTruth said:
When the disciples asked Jesus......what work must we do to be saved?
Jesus gave a one answer - "BELIEVE"

John 6: 28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

I take it you have a bible that has the books of the new testament ?
Of our Bibles as the complete Word of God, apart from the Old Testament, does the New Testament have 27 books?
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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GraceAndTruth said:
When the disciples asked Jesus......what work must we do to be saved?
Jesus gave a one answer - "BELIEVE"

John 6: 28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



Of our Bibles as the complete Word of God, apart from the Old Testament, does the New Testament have 27 books?
The new testament only begins with the death of Christ. So that would be after Mathew 27. To make doctrinal statements without taking this into account causes confusion.