Should we oppose what Constantine did for the church?

[Blik]

The church today is almost nothing like what it was under Constantine.
What we have today is a product of many changes through out the centuries.

In my studies I was told that what Constantine did was based in part in his statement that "anything the Jews do, we must not do for they are a wicked people". The apostles who had been taught by Christ were the last word before Constantine and the people trained by these people. They looked to scripture, not to opposing Jews.
Then I learned that the councils were looked to for the answer to questions, not scripture. I checked this out by reading the reports of the councils for the next years, and sure enough, that is what they did.

What these councils decided is very much what the main body of church doctrine is today. Luther pioneered not following these councils, but it was only partially successful.

So when you say the church today is nothing like the church Constantine led, I found that not true. A major difference is in the power that was given to the church councils and the state. Before the power was in scripture.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

In my studies I was told that what Constantine did was based in part in his statement that "anything the Jews do, we must not do for they are a wicked people". The apostles who had been taught by Christ were the last word before Constantine and the people trained by these people. They looked to scripture, not to opposing Jews.
Then I learned that the councils were looked to for the answer to questions, not scripture. I checked this out by reading the reports of the councils for the next years, and sure enough, that is what they did.

What these councils decided is very much what the main body of church doctrine is today. Luther pioneered not following these councils, but it was only partially successful.

So when you say the church today is nothing like the church Constantine led, I found that not true. A major difference is in the power that was given to the church councils and the state. Before the power was in scripture.

I don't know who taught you that, bui learned something quite different.
I invite you to have a look at this short video.

 

[Blik]

I don't know who taught you that, bui learned something quite different.
I invite you to have a look at this short video.

This post is looking for the change in Christianity that came because of the actions of Constantine, it is not a post to bring up tales against him. It is to look at the church, not to set ourselves up as a god who has a right to judge a man.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

This post is looking for the change in Christianity that came because of the actions of Constantine, it is not a post to bring up tales against him. It is to look at the church, not to set ourselves up as a god who has a right to judge a man.

On that we can agree.
Some of the results of Constantine have been very good, sadly power and money corrupts, even men who love God can find themselves in that quandary.

 

[Angela53510]

Thanks Angeleta, I am in awe of all your have learned. I have not studied the languages and you have. I am going by what people who have studied it tells me.

I cannot see that what I have been told is nonsense though, for aren't the scrolls that were studied still in Hebrew? What language did Gamalier use? It was my understanding that these scrolls he used were in Hebrew. I also was under the impression that the Hebrew scholars still used Hebrew. So many words in scripture need Hebrew to fully understand, it seemed to me, like shalom or Torah.

As I said, the boys were taught Hebrew in the synagogue schools. So the men could read and maybe pronounce Biblical Hebrew. But it was a dead language, since it was not used in normal conversations or in the market place or homes. Even Jesus spoke Aramaic when he spoke to the crowds, not Hebrew. He also told jokes, mostly puns, that don't come through in Greek. That is how scholars know Jesus was speaking Aramaic, because the jokes don't work in other languages.

When Jesus went before Pilate, there was nothing that said there was a translator. Jesus would have known Greek, from his work with Joseph as a carpenter. The Romans were constructing buildings and whole cities (not mentioned in the Bible, but known by archeology!) These building projects would have provided jobs for tradespeople. Jesus would have learned Greek there and maybe he even studied it, like Paul did.

Probably some could read the scrolls. I wonder what language the scroll Jesus read from Isaiah in the synagogue to announce he was the Messiah, and that he fulfilled the prophecy was?

It might well have been Hebrew, because that was the last place Hebrew was used. But by the time of Jesus, no one was thinking in Hebrew as their basic heart language. Alexander made sure that in a few generations his Greek kingdom would be Greek talkers and thinkers. Many Jewish men tried to have their circumcisions undone so they would be able to go to the gymnasiums and compete, with a more beautiful (according to the Greeks) body. They were undoing their old covenant symbol of being set apart to God.

Again, God did have a purpose. Israel had failed as God's chosen people. Hebrew was dead, Greek replaced it. When the Bible manuscripts were written in Greek and then copied and sent out, everyone understood Greek. There was no complicated process of translating the Greek NT scrolls into multiple obscure languages. Instead, the world was ready and waiting to hear the gospel in Greek, a language they knew. The Jews had failed God, by sinning, worshipping other gods, putting their children through the fire. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken into captivity by the Assyrians in 722 BC. They were dispersed into the nations, and ceased to exist as a nation. Judah also failed God, and were taken into captivity by the Babylonians. But God preserved them, and the lineages, so when Jesus returned, he could prove he was a descendent of David, and part of the house of Judah. All those separations, along with the Greeks and then the Romans, broke up the Jewish culture, including their language. Hebrew was replaced by Aramaic and Greek.

 

[Blik]

This post has resulted in a full explanation of language, and I think it shows the language of Hebrew had importance even if it wasn't in everyday use, but this is not establishing the effect Constantine had on the church, and if some of how he affected it is with us today. I would so like to hear thoughts about that.

My studies has shown that there was a dramatic change in the church that the Nicene Council brought on, some good and some bad. The overall affect was that the church lost its tremendous power and became a state religion more than a spiritual guide.

 

[posthuman]

That along with the revivalist format, the whole notion of praise and worship song service, and the idea of preachers preaching 45 minutes and only using three verses of scripture.
Along with the liberalism that you speak of.

you're lucky if you get 45 minutes lol

i think the average is probably under 30, and that, with surprisingly low information-density

 

[Truth7t7]

you're lucky if you get 45 minutes lol

i think the average is probably under 30, and that, with surprisingly low information-density

One thing I do know, sin and repentance being preached is hard to find at pulpits today.

John Hagee ran off with the college girl Diana Castro 12 years younger from the church he pastored, divorced his wife Martha and children, went across town and started a Mega Church

How's John Hagee gonna preach on the sin of Adultery, when he wakes up every morning swimming in it?

Just One Example

 

[Blik]

you're lucky if you get 45 minutes lol

i think the average is probably under 30, and that, with surprisingly low information-density

Why is this? What do you think went wrong, and how can we fix it?

The earliest church hung tight to Christ. They thought their eternal life was more important than their earthly one, and lived their life on earth as a preparation for eternity. In what they did day to day for that end was to love and care for each other as an expression of caring for the Lord. They looked to the people closest to Jesus for answers to their questions, after Constantine they looked to the councils.

The councils were made of men, it was the same as looking to men for answers instead of looking to the Lord. The council lied to them, and to themselves by saying anything they thought came from the Holy Spirit. They didn't seem to understand that the Holy Spirit was God, and God never ever contradicts himself. They could not add to scripture, the addition was NOT the Holy Spirit. They could not change scripture. Passover was scripture, as an example, Easter was not. They had no right to add Easter. God was the one to establish what was of God, Constantine took over that right by making laws and saying they were God's.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

you're lucky if you get 45 minutes lol

i think the average is probably under 30, and that, with surprisingly low information-density

When I preach you get an old testament passage, a new testament passage, a Psalm, and something Jesus said from one of the gospels, all corresponding passages. Next Sunday I will connect an OT passage anticipating the first coming of Jesus, and a new testament passage anticipating the return of Jesus, with Jesus promising to return from the gospel. My message will be short, just as the saints of old waited the coming of the Lord so also we await his return. As it was important to them so it is with us.

 

[Blik]

When I preach you get an old testament passage, a new testament passage, a Psalm, and something Jesus said from one of the gospels, all corresponding passages. Next Sunday I will connect an OT passage anticipating the first coming of Jesus, and a new testament passage anticipating the return of Jesus, with Jesus promising to return from the gospel. My message will be short, just as the saints of old waited the coming of the Lord so also we await his return. As it was important to them so it is with us.

I love this answer. It is an individual, part of the remnant, holding fast to the Lord. It is all done one man at a time.

 

[Jackson123]

Many of our doctrines accepted today are as Constantine picked out the doctrines he wanted established as law, and he made secular law into church law.

Can you give us Example?

 

[Jackson123]

I don't know who taught you that, bui learned something quite different.
I invite you to have a look at this short video.

Yep, before Christian was under persecution after church persecute real christian

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Yep, before Christian was under persecution after church persecute real christian

Give an example of the church persecuting someone during the life of Constantine.

 

[Jackson123]

Give an example of the church persecuting someone during the life of Constantine.

Not during his life, but after.

It may not because If constantine, but It Seem he stop persecution, and move the church focus from spiritual into,political, wordly power.

Rome was try to obliterate Christian by killing It member, now constantine implement new strategy, by give them power and money. Christian Will disappear, leaving only the name.

They call It Christian but the teaching is pagan.

 

[Jackson123]

What constantine did remind me about Prosperity theology. Make Christian rich to weaken their faith.
In muslim country where new Convert from muslim suffer from persecution, the faith were strong.
Stronger than Christian living in persecution free country.
I hear a big muslim Imam say. Christian is like a Ping pong ball, the harder It is bea ten the more It bounces. This muslim Imam may speak from history.

 

[Blik]

Can you give us Example?

Before, questions were taken to the people closest to the apostles who heard directly from Christ, afterward questions were taken to a council and that council wasn't trying to strictly follow Christ as scripture gave Christ.

God laid out plans for celebrations and holidays, after Constantine it was law that only man made holidays were accepted. Before Constantine many Christians even went to synagogue and the division between those who accepted Christ and those who didn't wasn't so intense. There was more acceptance and love. In fact the majority of churches were home churches with an emphasis on living for Christ. Constantine made doctrine king, not living for Christ.

The Holy Spirit was thought of in a different way. Constantine told them the council had the Holy Spirit that gave them the right to add to scripture.

There was a separation between the Christian Church and government before Constantine. After, Christianity was under the government. We are finally separating them again. Constantine was the father of being against Jews. Constantine said "anything the Jews do we must not do for they are an evil people". That it was scripture to bless them was ignored.

 

[Jackson123]

The Holy Spirit was thought of in a different way. Constantine told them the council had the Holy Spirit that gave them the right to add to scripture.

Adding Holy scripture is against Christian teaching, so the chuch after constantine is not a christian

 

[gb9]

my pastor has a saying- " constantine was a lot more roman and a lot more emperor than he was holy".

 

[Jackson123]

my pastor has a saying- " constantine was a lot more roman and a lot more emperor than he was holy".

I don't think he was Holy et all