Can someone lose their salvation?

[zone]

So thats all your going to say about my whole post?

answer my post then I will show you where I see you contradict yourself.

 

[livingbygrace]

First off, The question is what is the kingdom of God, is it heaven. or our life here on earth until we get to heaven. This question has yet to be dealt with.

As for your two examples. I do not know enough to give you an answer. Has the one who killed someone never looked to God, Never showed a life of spirituality? Or is this person one who did many things for many years. And something happened in his or her life which made them snap and do the things you claim they did.

If it is the first type of person. They were never saved (in my mind) if it is the second. I would not tend to question their salvation. maybe they were saved and snapped. Like David did when he found out the lady he had an affair with got pregnant. Or maybe they never were saved. and it was all a game. and as scripture said a dog always returns to their vomit. But am I going to condemn him to hell? No. For in doing so I would have to condemn king david to hell.

The point I am trying to make is a habitual liar is just as bad as a serial killer in Gods eyes. Christ had to die for both sins, or neither would make it.

There are sins in which God knows is more damaging to society (muder, rape, adultry, forniaction etc etc) and God has imposed harsher (temporal) punishments for these sins than others. We see this not only in the law. But in Pauls writtings. That some sins will prevent us from inheriting all the wonderful blessings God wants to give us while here on earth. But eternal consequences and temporal consequences are not the same. ALL sin has eternal consequences. Some sins have more severe temporal consequences than others.

The pharisees thought they were righteous. They did not murder. Commit sexual sin. They were not drunks, nor did they do any of the type sins spoken of by Paul. Yet Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds theirs we have no hope. Why, Because they were not sinless. They were just as guilty in Gods eyes as the people who commited those sins.

when we say that those people will not make it to heaven. But we will because we do not do those things. we ar no better than the pharisee. And I think this is a dangerous doctrine. Why would I want to try to live for God when I struggle with sexual sin, and if I do not break free from it I have no hope? what message are we sending them? a message of despair. not of hope.

If I am a perosn struggling with htis sin and am told this thing. I would not share it. Would not admit it. or show my weekness by showing my sorrow (even if it was killing me inside that I could not stop it) because I know I would be judged, not loved. And I would commit another sin of "pride" which would keep me from seeking help. because the only help I know I can get would only bring judgment and condemnation. Not love.




No I disagree. The person is not going to be kept from heaven because he is a serial killer. Christ paid for that sin. He is going to not make it to heaven because he has not repented. He does not think he is doing wrong. or he would at least try to stop it and get help. Again, that is the difference betwen a licentious gospel, and a legalistic gospel of works. A licentious gospel teaches you say a few words and your in;. A legalistic gospel says you have faith. say a few words. then stop doing this and that, and do this or that or else your free gift is taken away. Both are evil gospels not from God.




No but he did not stop sleeping with all his wives. thus commiting adultry.



How much time. What if the person died before he stops. is he then declared guilty and condemned to hell?



God can only change us if we allow him. God may change many of my sin habits. One might be so strong a desire I have that I can't break it. Does God condemn me because I could not make it and stop a particular sin? even though I found victory in many others?




yet what you say you say, and what you actually say do not appear to be the same. You seem to contradict yourself in a few areas.

EG

I am sorry if I have offended you by not responding to every detail of this post. I will later this evening as you took the time to write it all out. But after concentrating on this subject for many days to respond to a long post I do find wearynig. This is nothing against your post, just that maybe I need a break from constant discussion on the same subject. But like I say I will respond to this later

But pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease, do not then respond with a hugely long post!!!

Please keep it simple and short(maybe I am feeling older than my years)

God Bless

 

[Red33]

BTW

We are not talking here of a person never once getting drunk etc we are talking of ceaseless and constant sin that has seen no victory over it. I have said many times we all fall, biut there is a great difference between slipping up and getting drunk say one night and constant/continuous drunkeness as a normal lifestyle . That I believe is what Paul is talking about

Do us all a huge favour and consider your 'strawman' to be a man that is living in sin and from what you can observe is not a regenerated man. That should suffice. If others like myself do not want to judge this man as you do, let that be on us and go on to something else and continue to appreciate the grace of God as you do. May the 'strawman' come to know the Lord before the fowls of the air come to lodge on its limbs.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OK

A person comes to God through Christ. They know they are secure with God by faith in his son, not their own personal goodness, they stand on their one and only righteousness for Heaven, faith in Christ.

But it is because a person knows they are secure with God, not by their own striving and effort to be good enough/obey the good laws of God, but by faith in Christ that sin MUST BIBLICALLY start to lose its power in their life.
So if the person is sincere(something I believe we agree on) change must then be seen in their life, for they are living in the truth of the Gospel of grace.

Agreed. But how much change? Is a little change good enough. or does a man have to be perfected? See the problem with just saying change. There is no set limit. Again I go back to wood hay and stubble. Why did this person not have any reward?

And if a person is sincere and loves God and is living in the truth of the Gospel of grace they will see much victory over sin in their life, for there is great power in the cross of Christ, it is inevitable, to believe anything else is to believe the cross of Christ lacks power and the Holy Spirit is weak and ineffective to sanctify a person.

Again I agree. but we also agree this person will not be perfect. He will still sin. And that is the point I am trying to make. Does it matter if the persons sin is just a menatal attitude sin such as lust and pride, or if it is an overt sin such as adultry and fornication? In Gods eyes sin is sin is it not?

So the truth of the Gospel of grace is that becaise a person knows they are secure with God through faith in his son, because they know being with God does not depend on their own personal effort but by faith in Christ their one and only righteousness for Heaven THEY MUST BE FREED OF WHAT BINDS THEM BY CHRIST.

They are free of what Binds them. The penalty of sin is removed. But sin is not removed otherwise we would be perfect. If your saying sin must be removed, your again teaching a gospel of works. One must earn their salvation by doing something, and if they do not do it, they are lost forever. Your right the power of God can free us from sin. But if we do not allow it or fight against it and do not stop lieing, or being covetious, or proud. Are we any less saved than if we fall into sexual sin?.

So the lifestyle Paul speaks of that would bar someone from the kingdom of God would not apply to the sincere Christian living in the truth of grace, for Christ would set them free of those things as they trust in him and live in the truth of the Gospel of grace.

What if they do not trust him in some areas? What if their flesh is stronger than the spirit because they only have a little faith? What if they were a murderer. And they trusted God and no longer kill, They trust God and no longer lie cheat and steel. They no longer show signs of pride but humility. But they can't stop having sex with beautiful women because they are week in the flesh. And a beautiful woman comes and seduces him and he has no power to stop it. Does that count them out? Are they lost forever?

Now if a person was run over by a bus the day after they accepted Christ into their life obviously their salvation is secure by faith in Christ despite not seeing the changes in their life that a person would normally expect to see

Agreed, But what about a person who followed God for years. and due to some circumstance started sleeping with a woman not his wife. And this goes on for a few months before the man repents. And one day driving home he is struck by a drunk driver and is killed. Is this man lost forever because he did not repent? What if he never did repent, Divorced his wife and married this other girl. Is he lost forever? You see the problem we have with basing ones eternal life on a particular sin?

So a sincere conversion must bring much victory over sin

If this was the case we would stop sinning altogether. Which even you state you do not believe.

Saying one must have victory to be saved is placing a person back under law.

And whether you admit it or not or whether the head theologists admit it or not if you knew someone who claimed to be a Christian and over much time did not show any improvement, or victory over certain sin in their life you in your heart would question their salvation

I would question their faith and their repentance. I would not question their salvation because of sin. Christ paid the penalty for sin. Not only ours, but the sin of the whole world. It is not their sin that has kept them from Grace, it is their lack of faith and repentance.

This has nothing to do with a person earning their way to Heaven, but an assuredness that Christ will deal with sin in a persons life if they trust in him, and the sin that is most urgent to deal with I suggest would be dealt with first

The gospel states we are sinners. God loved us so much he came to earth and took the penalty we all deserve for sin. And because of this he offers us eternal life. If we trust him. If we admit we are sinners. Admit we are guilty. Admit we can not save ourselves. Admit we have no hope without Christ. This is totally against human nature. And our flesh. So one must repent in order to agree with all these things.

The gospel never promises we will have total victory over sin. This is just not true. It says we CAN HAVE. but that is not the same as WILL HAVE.

One can trust God to save them by true faith and repentance. But because the power of the flesh, Never come to fully trust God in a particular sin issue. Does this make them unsaved? If it does. We are back under law.

Now please tell me

If a person claims to be a Christian, goes to your church for a couple of years, raises their hands in the airc and professes to be a Christian, what would you think if you knew they were constantly having affairs and getting drunk?
Forget the head theology, what would you in your heart think?

Can we not just agree that yupon a sincere conversion things as mentioned would have to be dealt with, not by the individual, but an assurity that Christ would deal with them

If I have not convinced you by this answer I know I never will

God Bless

What would I think. First I would ask.

1. Has the guy always done this, never having shown signs of repenantce? If this is the case. i would confront him. Show him the gospel. and ask him why he thinks he is saved when he evidently has not repented of anything. Because he first needs the HS before he can even have the possability of having victory over this sin.

2. If he at one time did show signs of salvation. and this is a new sin in his life. I would do as God said. Confront him as a brother. Ask him ewhy he is doing it. See if he needs help. If he continues, I would bring him in front of a witness, and confront him again. If he still does not change, I would take him in front of the church. And if he still fails. He would be asked to leave and not to return until he realises what he is doing is damaging to himself, the church and those around him.

Would I judge man 1 for his sin? No. Because he needs saved first. God was not sent to judge but to save. He has believed in a licentious gospel. And if he does not repent he will not be saved, But that is between him and God.

would i judge man 2? No. I have enough planks in my eye to worry about judging or condemning a brother in Christ.

Would I help discipline number 2? Yes. Scripturally.

Would I judge his salvation? No. If he was saved before. He is still saved. He may not get any reward when he gets to heaven. He may suffer loss./ But he will still be saved, even though as through fire.

 

[allyseshawree]

You are saved one time, when you enter Heaven. None are saved until then. God sees who has entered and who has not, and has written your name in the beginning. But we don't know, so yay for guessing!

 

[livingbygrace]

First off, The question is what is the kingdom of God, is it heaven. or our life here on earth until we get to heaven. This question has yet to be dealt with.

I believe in the context of what Paul was writing he was meaning the kingdom of God was a person inheriting eternal life in Heaven

As for your two examples. I do not know enough to give you an answer. Has the one who killed someone never looked to God, Never showed a life of spirituality? Or is this person one who did many things for many years. And something happened in his or her life which made them snap and do the things you claim they did.

OK let me give you another, hopefully plainer example. Someone joins your church. They say they are a Christian. During the next year they commit six murders(I know this is extreme but you understand it is an examplre to make my point) ten rapes, have ten different affairs and constantly most nights of the week get drunk.
In your heart would you believe they are saved or question their salvation? Undoubtedly you would question their salvation. Why? They are committting sin the same as the person sitting next to you commits sin.
It surely is because deep inside of us whatever the head theologists say we agree with Paul. There is continuous sin that proves a person is not saved
Theologically it does not sit well with people driven by head theology, but please, answer and reflect honestly. What Would you in your heart say concerning a person thus described

They are saved because their salvation is secure by faith in Christ, not because of obediance to law or personal goodness. I do not believe in your heart you would say that concerning the person described, and I have never met any Christian who would


If it is the first type of person. They were never saved (in my mind) if it is the second. I would not tend to question their salvation. maybe they were saved and snapped. Like David did when he found out the lady he had an affair with got pregnant. Or maybe they never were saved. and it was all a game. and as scripture said a dog always returns to their vomit. But am I going to condemn him to hell? No. For in doing so I would have to condemn king david to hell.

King David had been a man after God's own heart. He delighted in his statutes and was careful to obey all God told him. Although Saul kept trying to kill him, David would not kill him when he had the oppurtunity as Saul had been the Lord's annointed. David had proved his loyalty to God and desired to follow him.
Yes he fell and committted terrible sin, but he repented and did not continue to over and over again commit that sin
I have never said a person cannot fall, but rather if no victory is seen in a life over sin
There is a difference between someonme slipping up and once getting drunk and someone who continuously gets drunk and that is their lifestyle


The point I am trying to make is a habitual liar is just as bad as a serial killer in Gods eyes. Christ had to die for both sins, or neither would make it.

When it comes to God acceptng us through faith in Christ our past is irrelevant and so is the sins committed in our past
As long as we are then trusting in Christ and standing in the truth of grace that he is our one and only righteousness for Heaven, as long as we seek in earnest to be changed of that which should not be in our lives, we will not be judged guilty of any deep rooted sin we take into our Christian life from our former life that in our hearts we are desperate to be free from, for we are not under law but under grace. And we are following after the Holy Spirit and trusting in Christ to set us free of what we do not desire in our lives

But once we have been set fre of such sin to commit it wilfullfully and deliberately when we do not have to because we have been set free is to be viewed differently as I believe you would accept


There are sins in which God knows is more damaging to society (muder, rape, adultry, forniaction etc etc) and God has imposed harsher (temporal) punishments for these sins than others. We see this not only in the law. But in Pauls writtings. That some sins will prevent us from inheriting all the wonderful blessings God wants to give us while here on earth. But eternal consequences and temporal consequences are not the same. ALL sin has eternal consequences. Some sins have more severe temporal consequences than others.
I ask again. If we are living in the truth of grace and earnestly trusting Christ for deliverence from that which should not be in our lives is it possible for Christ to leave us wallowing in sin that makes us miserable?
Would Christ leave us as a drunkard say?
Would he refuse to give us victory over having affairs?
If he would not something is badly wrong somewhere. And what Christianity do we have if people then see a message(which they must) that you can be a Christian and have affairs and constantly get drunk.

The pharisees thought they were righteous. They did not murder. Commit sexual sin. They were not drunks, nor did they do any of the type sins spoken of by Paul. Yet Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds theirs we have no hope. Why, Because they were not sinless. They were just as guilty in Gods eyes as the people who commited those sins.


The Pharisees pinned their hopes of Heaven on self righteousness. They were a proud people, they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God
God requires a humble, contrite heart who loves him and will trust in his son, he will not refuse to help such a person. The proud could not accept the grace on offer. And God wants all trhe glory the true Christian in their heart can give God all the glory, the Pharisees wanted the credit
Why is circumcision(ie law) according to Paul the true offence of the cross?
when we say that those people will not make it to heaven. But we will because we do not do those things. we ar no better than the pharisee. And I think this is a dangerous doctrine. Why would I want to try to live for God when I struggle with sexual sin, and if I do not break free from it I have no hope? what message are we sending them? a message of despair. not of hope.
If we believed we by our own effort attained Heaven because of things we do and do not do we would be no better than the Pharisees, agreed
But we are set free by faith in Christ, because he paid the price of our sin we are not under law but under grace, therefore sin shall not be our master, for its power(the law) has been removed.

Therefore if we live by faith in Christ and rejoice in our salvation, knowing we are not saved by our own personal goodness but faith in Christ in whom we are secure with God, SIN MUST START TO L.OSE ITS POWER IN OUR LIVES.

Please think on the examples I gave you earlier in this post, reflect on them. Sometimes head theology can be a barrier in our Christian walk, that is true
I chatted to a Godly woman who has been a Christian for sixty years. She said it is not head theology that matters but heartfelt belief and the conviction of the spirit



If I am a perosn struggling with htis sin and am told this thing. I would not share it. Would not admit it. or show my weekness by showing my sorrow (even if it was killing me inside that I could not stop it) because I know I would be judged, not loved. And I would commit another sin of "pride" which would keep me from seeking help. because the only help I know I can get would only bring judgment and condemnation. Not love.

EG you cannot defeat any sin by struggling against it, you must trust Christ and he will deliver you and give you victory. Your job is to have faith in him, that is your battle never from shifting to believe he will deliver you, not struggle in yourself to defeat the sin if you do you will fail. What a glorious Gospel!
You will not or never be judged for any sin if in your heart you are looking to Christ to give you victory over it. He is your righteousness, and he will give you victory if you trust him HE MUST
But when he has given you victory it is your responsibility to resist temptation in the power of the Holy Spirit and keep looking to Christ in your heart


No I disagree. The person is not going to be kept from heaven because he is a serial killer. Christ paid for that sin. He is going to not make it to heaven because he has not repented. He does not think he is doing wrong. or he would at least try to stop it and get help. Again, that is the difference betwen a licentious gospel, and a legalistic gospel of works. A licentious gospel teaches you say a few words and your in;. A legalistic gospel says you have faith. say a few words. then stop doing this and that, and do this or that or else your free gift is taken away. Both are evil gospels not from God.

There is no way a person could be a true Christian and at the same time be a serial killer, that is the point.
I agree to say stop doing this or that or you are not saved/lose your salvation is a legalistic Gospel, but we are set free because we are in a loving, secure relationship with God through faith in Christ. As it is Christ's responsibilitry to change us and not our own WE MUST BE CHANGED IF WE WILL TRUST CHRIST TO CHANGE US. FAITH IN HIM CANNOT GO DISAPPOINTED, AMEN? I wonder if some struggle because they are not trusting on Christ to free them but in all sincerity trying to free themselves of the sin


No but he did not stop sleeping with all his wives. thus commiting adultry.

Can you give me a scripturte where God forbade David to marry any of his wives

How much time. What if the person died before he stops. is he then declared guilty and condemned to hell?

I explained in a previous answer that if someone died under the wheels of a bus the day after they became saved they would be aquitted by faith in Christ. We are ta;lking of people who see no chgange in their life. If someone does not have time to see the changes God desires as they die, the proof of their true salvation will be seen by the changes that have occured

God can only change us if we allow him. God may change many of my sin habits. One might be so strong a desire I have that I can't break it. Does God condemn me because I could not make it and stop a particular sin? even though I found victory in many others?

I mean this respectfully EG from your words I wonder if in your heart you believe in grace but believe you must break the sin in your life YOU CANNOT, NOR ARE YOU EXPECTED TO
It is Christ's responsibility to change you if you will let him. Most do not in their hearts believe that so they see little victory. They say they believe in grace, but then struggle in themselves to be free of their sin.

If there is a specific sin in your life that you feel you are not in earnest about? ask God to make you earnest. The glory is God's for a reason, he changes you through faith in Christ, so the Christian unlike the Pharisee has nothingt to boast of in themselves
But if you were a drunkard(don't think you are) and you were not in earnest to stop drinking, there would be problems wouldn't there?


yet what you say you say, and what you actually say do not appear to be the same. You seem to contradict yourself in a few areas.

I mean this sincerely. If you believe I contradict myself please show me where. But please, could you respond with shorter posts and questions. It is not just you I find it hard with many questions in one post
I have tried to answer without any evasion and directly answering your points, I hope you agree

God Bless
And remember the victory is Christ's in us not our own, but we must put our faith in him to do it

 

[livingbygrace]

EG

Can I add this

Paul in his personal life was in a terrible state. Not many like to admit this but he by his own admittance was consumed by lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) Rom 7:7-11

And why should Paul before he bacame a Christian not have been in such a state. He was as human as we are. But look how he changed. The difference between what he wrote concerning sin in Roms 7 and 8 is huge. Why the difference?
Bercause he learnt the truth of the Gospel of grace. He went from being a slave to sin to deamnding so much from the Christian concerning victory over sin

ie

Therefore brothers we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature to live acording to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die Rom 8:12&13

Was Paul being super Holy or demanding what is impossible to be achieved? No! He understood the power and victory that the true message of grace can achieve in a persons life

But I have been to fundamentalist born again churches for more years than the majority on cc have been saved. I never once heard the Gospel of grace Paul preached in its fulness preached in any churches I went to

THERE IS GREAT POWER IN THE TRUTH

Many say they believe in grace, but do they? They are still stuck in much deep sin they are desperate to be free of. They may try and convince themselves that as they are under grace and not law they will be fine, but deep in their heart they have no peace?

Why not? because they are not sincere? I believe most are, but they do not understand the truly glorious Gospel of grace
For the grace that freed Paul and gave him such victory is freely available to every Christian now, if only they would truly follow it

But we have many legalistic churches in effect who say they stand in grace
And many now who promote a licentious Gospel

The true victory is the narrow road in the middle that is wide in an abundance of grace

We are FREE, REALLY FREE we should be jumping up and down for joy but the reality is most do not, why not? Are they trying to change themselves? They cannot?

We have a Gospel where we can do nothing, nor are we expected to to have the victory over sin, apart from trusting in Christ our Saviour. We have to accept we cannot be 'good enough' or earn our salvation. But when we in our hearts accept we can do nothing and trust Christ to do it he will and the spirit will sanctify us.

No we will not be perfect in the flesh, but those sins we in our hearts hate so much and are a barrier to being truly close to God througfh Christ will be broken by Christ as we trust in him

Jesus said

The worlds sin is unbelief in me
John 16:9

That is the Christians true sin as well, not trusting Christ to change them, trying instead to do it themselves

And it is impossible for Christ not to change us if we trust him to do it, absolutely impossible

But how many truly in their hearts live in the truth of grace? If they do they will be deliriously happy and see great victory over much sin in their life, if they do not, they need to understand grace

 

[zone]

And why should Paul before he bacame a Christian not have been in such a state. He was as human as we are. But look how he changed. The difference between what he wrote concerning sin in Roms 7 and 8 is huge. Why the difference?

that chapter isnt about Saul the Pharisee.

its Paul the Christian.

its talking to the new convert who expects to perfected upon conversion.

 

[livingbygrace]

that chapter isnt about Saul the Pharisee.

its Paul the Christian.

its talking to the new convert who expects to perfected upon conversion.

So Paul as a Christian was full of lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) verse v7-11 and a slave to sin(verse14)?

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yoiurselves to someone to obey him as slaves you are slaves to the one whom you obey, WHETHER YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN , WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, or to obediance which leads to righteousness
Roms 6:15&16

So Paul is heading for death as a Christian?

Therefore brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the spirit you piut to death the misdeeds of the body you will live.
Rom 8:12&13

So Paul is condemned if he is speaking of life as a Christian in Rom ch 7

But I guess you will come up with something to say plain scripture is wrong

 

[Red33]

Every single believer is capable of committing any sin that any wicked unbeliever is capable of committing because God did not eradicate our old sin nature when we were saved and the heart is still deceitful and desperately wicked (Jer 17:9). Do either one of you understand that? We will not be free from the old sin nature until we put on our new glorified bodies. It is in the members of our body that the old sin nature resides (Rom 7:23), in the flesh, where any form of lust can take over in an instant. The things that exist in the human heart listed in (Mt 15:19, Mk 7:21-23) are also in the heart of the believer, that is why we are to keep and guard our heart for out of it proceed the issues of life (Prov 4:23). Don't you understand that?

The believer is capable of any sin that resides in the heart and it goes much deeper then that. The word has to go deep into the joints and marrow and discern the thoughts and intents of the imaginations of the heart (Heb 4:12) because this is where the strongholds of sin and iniquity are located as a framework (2Cor 10:4,5, Ps 94:20). Does anyone of you know what (Ps 94:20) is talking about? You guys don't even talk about iniquity and what that is and we are living right in the midst of the mystery of iniquity and it is working as part of this world system to blind the minds of those that believe not (2Cor 4:4, 2Thes 2:7, Eph 6:12, 1Jn 5:19).

There are things in the imaginations of the heart that have set up images upon the tables of man's heart (Jer 17:1, Hos 10:2, Ez 8:12) that he subconsciously worships and that is a form of idolatry (1Chr 28:9, 1Sam 15:23, Prov 6:18, Rom 1:21, 2Cor 10:5, Gen 8:21, Deut 29:19, 31:21, 1Chr 29:18, Jer 7:24, 13:10, Lk 1:51). We as believers do this in our heart and do not even know that we are doing it. There is nothing spiritual about it and it is far more deceitful then any outward sin. God must smash these images within the heart through the word and doctrine and through much grace without condemning the believer. This is the hammering that goes on that is described in (Jer 23:29). This is the work that is going on in the inner man and when God is dealing with these images people tend to react and do things outwardly that we have no understanding or ability to comprehend.

We are told not to judge according to what we see outwardly because God is looking upon the heart (1Sam 16:7). When we see a brother having a problem with sin, we have no idea what is going on in his heart between him and God and it is best that we stay out of it and let God do his work because we would mess it up and cause setbacks all in the name of sincerity and wanting to help.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I believe in the context of what Paul was writing he was meaning the kingdom of God was a person inheriting eternal life in Heaven

I must disagree. If Paul is talking about eternal life here he contradicts himself by at one time saying we are not saved by our own righteous deeds, or good works. And then here saying if we do not do righteous deeds will can not be saved. This makes no sense.

OK let me give you another, hopefully plainer example. Someone joins your church. They say they are a Christian. During the next year they commit six murders(I know this is extreme but you understand it is an examplre to make my point) ten rapes, have ten different affairs and constantly most nights of the week get drunk.

In your heart would you believe they are saved or question their salvation? Undoubtedly you would question their salvation. Why? They are committting sin the same as the person sitting next to you commits sin.
It surely is because deep inside of us whatever the head theologists say we agree with Paul. There is continuous sin that proves a person is not saved
Theologically it does not sit well with people driven by head theology, but please, answer and reflect honestly. What Would you in your heart say concerning a person thus described

They are saved because their salvation is secure by faith in Christ, not because of obediance to law or personal goodness. I do not believe in your heart you would say that concerning the person described, and I have never met any Christian who would

To be honest this is an extreme example, and I would not even see it happen. I would rather talk about real life situations. Like the man who for years had victory over his sexual desires through Christ and did many things for God. Then one day fell into sexual sin, and could not get out of it, And he died before ever stopping. So we will never know if he would have repented or not

Is this man saved? or is he not? According to your interpretation of what Paul said, he would not be. but what do you say?

King David had been a man after God's own heart. He delighted in his statutes and was careful to obey all God told him. Although Saul kept trying to kill him, David would not kill him when he had the oppurtunity as Saul had been the Lord's annointed. David had proved his loyalty to God and desired to follow him.

Yes he fell and committted terrible sin, but he repented and did not continue to over and over again commit that sin
I have never said a person cannot fall, but rather if no victory is seen in a life over sin
There is a difference between someonme slipping up and once getting drunk and someone who continuously gets drunk and that is their lifestyle

King david had many wives, Which means he commited adultry many times. Yes he repented of hsi sin with Bathsheba, But he never repented of his many wives and divorced them all and just kept one. Again. I must disagree.

When it comes to God acceptng us through faith in Christ our past is irrelevant and so is the sins committed in our past

As long as we are then trusting in Christ and standing in the truth of grace that he is our one and only righteousness for Heaven, as long as we seek in earnest to be changed of that which should not be in our lives, we will not be judged guilty of any deep rooted sin we take into our Christian life from our former life that in our hearts we are desperate to be free from, for we are not under law but under grace. And we are following after the Holy Spirit and trusting in Christ to set us free of what we do not desire in our lives

But once we have been set fre of such sin to commit it wilfullfully and deliberately when we do not have to because we have been set free is to be viewed differently as I believe you would accept[/quote]

I will just say I do not believe any sin we commit is unwillful or unknowing. If we really did not want to do it, and knew it was wrong. we would never sin. But we do sin, And we do it willfully and knowingly. The only sin I would say we unknowingly or unwillingly do is sin we do not know yet is sin. The habitual liar is willingly sinning just like the man in sexual sin is willingly sinning. There is no difference. And both sins are condemned with a spiritual death penalty unless one is washed in the blood of the lamb. If doing sin willfully condemns us, We would all be condemned.

I ask again. If we are living in the truth of grace and earnestly trusting Christ for deliverence from that which should not be in our lives is it possible for Christ to leave us wallowing in sin that makes us miserable?

Would Christ leave us as a drunkard say?
Would he refuse to give us victory over having affairs?
If he would not something is badly wrong somewhere. And what Christianity do we have if people then see a message(which they must) that you can be a Christian and have affairs and constantly get drunk

I am not passing this message. God has a way to deal with a brother in sin. That is why a licentious person will deem me legalistic. Because I do not think a brother should get away with sin.

second, It is not that God has failed. It is that we have failed. Yes God can heal anyone from sexual sin. Thats not the point. the point is does the person trust or think God can heal them? If they do not., they will never be healed. That does not make God weak. It makes man weak. The corinthian church lived in sin, thats why they were still babes. And why Paul had to chasten them. I am sure many of them died before Paul helped them. I do not think they are damned because they had a sin they struggles with and did not trust God to heal them. God does not remove our will.

If we believed we by our own effort attained Heaven because of things we do and do not do we would be no better than the Pharisees, agreed

But we are set free by faith in Christ, because he paid the price of our sin we are not under law but under grace, therefore sin shall not be our master, for its power(the law) has been removed.

Therefore if we live by faith in Christ and rejoice in our salvation, knowing we are not saved by our own personal goodness but faith in Christ in whom we are secure with God, SIN MUST START TO L.OSE ITS POWER IN OUR LIVES.

Please think on the examples I gave you earlier in this post, reflect on them. Sometimes head theology can be a barrier in our Christian walk, that is true
I chatted to a Godly woman who has been a Christian for sixty years. She said it is not head theology that matters but heartfelt belief and the conviction of the spirit

If I am a perosn struggling with htis sin and am told this thing. I would not share it. Would not admit it. or show my weekness by showing my sorrow (even if it was killing me inside that I could not stop it) because I know I would be judged, not loved. And I would commit another sin of "pride" which would keep me from seeking help. because the only help I know I can get would only bring judgment and condemnation. Not love.

EG you cannot defeat any sin by struggling against it, you must trust Christ and he will deliver you and give you victory. Your job is to have faith in him, that is your battle never from shifting to believe he will deliver you, not struggle in yourself to defeat the sin if you do you will fail. What a glorious Gospel!

You will not or never be judged for any sin if in your heart you are looking to Christ to give you victory over it. He is your righteousness, and he will give you victory if you trust him HE MUST
But when he has given you victory it is your responsibility to resist temptation in the power of the Holy Spirit and keep looking to Christ in your heart

No I disagree. The person is not going to be kept from heaven because he is a serial killer. Christ paid for that sin. He is going to not make it to heaven because he has not repented. He does not think he is doing wrong. or he would at least try to stop it and get help. Again, that is the difference betwen a licentious gospel, and a legalistic gospel of works. A licentious gospel teaches you say a few words and your in;. A legalistic gospel says you have faith. say a few words. then stop doing this and that, and do this or that or else your free gift is taken away. Both are evil gospels not from God.

There is no way a person could be a true Christian and at the same time be a serial killer, that is the point.

I agree to say stop doing this or that or you are not saved/lose your salvation is a legalistic Gospel, but we are set free because we are in a loving, secure relationship with God through faith in Christ. As it is Christ's responsibilitry to change us and not our own WE MUST BE CHANGED IF WE WILL TRUST CHRIST TO CHANGE US. FAITH IN HIM CANNOT GO DISAPPOINTED, AMEN? I wonder if some struggle because they are not trusting on Christ to free them but in all sincerity trying to free themselves of the sin


No but he did not stop sleeping with all his wives. thus commiting adultry.

Can you give me a scripturte where God forbade David to marry any of his wives

How much time. What if the person died before he stops. is he then declared guilty and condemned to hell?

I explained in a previous answer that if someone died under the wheels of a bus the day after they became saved they would be aquitted by faith in Christ. We are ta;lking of people who see no chgange in their life. If someone does not have time to see the changes God desires as they die, the proof of their true salvation will be seen by the changes that have occured

God can only change us if we allow him. God may change many of my sin habits. One might be so strong a desire I have that I can't break it. Does God condemn me because I could not make it and stop a particular sin? even though I found victory in many others?

I mean this respectfully EG from your words I wonder if in your heart you believe in grace but believe you must break the sin in your life YOU CANNOT, NOR ARE YOU EXPECTED TO
It is Christ's responsibility to change you if you will let him. Most do not in their hearts believe that so they see little victory. They say they believe in grace, but then struggle in themselves to be free of their sin.

I think this goes for all of us, or we would be sinless. Grace says God loves us even when we fail. Legalism says if we fail, we are condemned.

If there is a specific sin in your life that you feel you are not in earnest about? ask God to make you earnest. The glory is God's for a reason, he changes you through faith in Christ, so the Christian unlike the Pharisee has nothingt to boast of in themselves
But if you were a drunkard(don't think you are) and you were not in earnest to stop drinking, there would be problems wouldn't there?

Yes there would be. I would suffer from the results of being a drunk. I would not be usefull to God. I would not be blessed by God. I would struggle to do anything for God. In other words, I would not reap the benefits the kingdom of God should bring me.

I am a smoker. I have stopped smoking many times. Once I stopped for almost a year. But I have fallen again. Does it mean I think it is ok? No. Does it mean God can not help me? No. Does it mean I am weak in faith God can help me? Yes. Does it mean I am condemned to hell because I can't quit? No. This is no different than a man addicted to alcohol or a man addicted to sex. They may have victory. They may have only small victories but fall back again. Does it mean God does not love them? Does it mean they are condemned because they do not have the strength or trust to break this habit.

I mean this sincerely. If you believe I contradict myself please show me where. But please, could you respond with shorter posts and questions. It is not just you I find it hard with many questions in one post
I have tried to answer without any evasion and directly answering your points, I hope you agree

God Bless
And remember the victory is Christ's in us not our own, but we must put our faith in him to do it

I hope I showed you the contradiction. As I said, If paul is condemning sinners. He can not teach a gospel of grace apart from our righteous deeds.

Yes God can help us. It does not mean we will always have faith he can. God will not force us. We have to learn to trust him. As the one man said, I have little faith. Help me have more faith. Sometimes this is easier said than done.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

sorry I tried to format it right. it is all messed up!!

 

[zone]

So Paul as a Christian was full of lust and concupiscence(sexual desire) verse v7-11 and a slave to sin(verse14)?

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yoiurselves to someone to obey him as slaves you are slaves to the one whom you obey, WHETHER YOU ARE SLAVES TO SIN , WHICH LEADS TO DEATH, or to obediance which leads to righteousness
Roms 6:15&16

So Paul is heading for death as a Christian?

Therefore brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the spirit you piut to death the misdeeds of the body you will live.
Rom 8:12&13

So Paul is condemned if he is speaking of life as a Christian in Rom ch 7

But I guess you will come up with something to say plain scripture is wrong

Romans 7 is about the believer’s relationship to THE LAW, and THE LAW'S inability to sanctify.

if you understood that, you would know why Chapter 6 is about the believer and SIN.

then you would understand Chapter 8.

~

2 Peter 3
Final Words
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

 

[unclefester]

Romans 7 is about the believer’s relationship to THE LAW, and THE LAW'S inability to sanctify.

if you understood that, you would know why Chapter 6 is about the believer and SIN.

then you would understand Chapter 8.

Very much agreed. You can lead a horse to the well.... but...............................

2 Peter 3
Final Words
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

A BIG AMEN !

 

[livingbygrace]

Romans 7 is about the believer’s relationship to THE LAW, and THE LAW'S inability to sanctify.

Well that of course is true, but not the way you mean it.

So Paul spent the whole of his Christian life being consumed by lust and concupiscence, a slave to sin, and doing the things he did not want to do, and instead of doing the good he wanted to do he kept doing the evil he did not want to do.
But then he demanded that others put to death the misdeeds of the body and said that those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. He also said that we are not controlled by the sinful nature if the spirit of God lives in us.(ch 8)
But in ch 7 when you say he is speaking of when he was a Christian, he was controlled by the sinful nature and a slave to sin
That would kinda make Paul a hypocrite I think, which I KNOW HE WAS NOT

It seems to me Zone you are trying reeeeeeeeeeal hard here to try and tell me that a Christian is a slave to sin and therefore controlled by their lower nature. You seem almost desperate that people accept the Paul of Rom ch 7 was speaking of when he was a Christian. And any mention of sin being overcome in a persons life by faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit seems to bring accusations of an attempt at being super Holy and a person claiming perfection and a Phariseeical attitude

I can only wonder why all this is

if you understood that, you would know why Chapter 6 is about the believer and SIN.

I understand why many try and convince themselves of what you are saying here

then you would understand Chapter 8.

Ch 8 is so different because now Paul is living in the truth of grace

~

2 Peter 3
Final Words
14 Therefore, beloved, since you are waiting for these, be diligent to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

That is a good back up isn't it!! Many fall back on those words when they are uncomfortable with what Paul wrote

Still. you didn't dissapoint me, you contrived a way to overturn plain scripture

 

[livingbygrace]

I must disagree. If Paul is talking about eternal life here he contradicts himself by at one time saying we are not saved by our own righteous deeds, or good works. And then here saying if we do not do righteous deeds will can not be saved. This makes no sense.





To be honest this is an extreme example, and I would not even see it happen. I would rather talk about real life situations. Like the man who for years had victory over his sexual desires through Christ and did many things for God. Then one day fell into sexual sin, and could not get out of it, And he died before ever stopping. So we will never know if he would have repented or not

Is this man saved? or is he not? According to your interpretation of what Paul said, he would not be. but what do you say?


Yes he fell and committted terrible sin, but he repented and did not continue to over and over again commit that sin
I have never said a person cannot fall, but rather if no victory is seen in a life over sin
There is a difference between someonme slipping up and once getting drunk and someone who continuously gets drunk and that is their lifestyle

King david had many wives, Which means he commited adultry many times. Yes he repented of hsi sin with Bathsheba, But he never repented of his many wives and divorced them all and just kept one. Again. I must disagree.

When it comes to God acceptng us through faith in Christ our past is irrelevant and so is the sins committed in our past

As long as we are then trusting in Christ and standing in the truth of grace that he is our one and only righteousness for Heaven, as long as we seek in earnest to be changed of that which should not be in our lives, we will not be judged guilty of any deep rooted sin we take into our Christian life from our former life that in our hearts we are desperate to be free from, for we are not under law but under grace. And we are following after the Holy Spirit and trusting in Christ to set us free of what we do not desire in our lives

But once we have been set fre of such sin to commit it wilfullfully and deliberately when we do not have to because we have been set free is to be viewed differently as I believe you would accept[/quote]

I will just say I do not believe any sin we commit is unwillful or unknowing. If we really did not want to do it, and knew it was wrong. we would never sin. But we do sin, And we do it willfully and knowingly. The only sin I would say we unknowingly or unwillingly do is sin we do not know yet is sin. The habitual liar is willingly sinning just like the man in sexual sin is willingly sinning. There is no difference. And both sins are condemned with a spiritual death penalty unless one is washed in the blood of the lamb. If doing sin willfully condemns us, We would all be condemned.


Would Christ leave us as a drunkard say?
Would he refuse to give us victory over having affairs?
If he would not something is badly wrong somewhere. And what Christianity do we have if people then see a message(which they must) that you can be a Christian and have affairs and constantly get drunk

I am not passing this message. God has a way to deal with a brother in sin. That is why a licentious person will deem me legalistic. Because I do not think a brother should get away with sin.

second, It is not that God has failed. It is that we have failed. Yes God can heal anyone from sexual sin. Thats not the point. the point is does the person trust or think God can heal them? If they do not., they will never be healed. That does not make God weak. It makes man weak. The corinthian church lived in sin, thats why they were still babes. And why Paul had to chasten them. I am sure many of them died before Paul helped them. I do not think they are damned because they had a sin they struggles with and did not trust God to heal them. God does not remove our will.





If I am a perosn struggling with htis sin and am told this thing. I would not share it. Would not admit it. or show my weekness by showing my sorrow (even if it was killing me inside that I could not stop it) because I know I would be judged, not loved. And I would commit another sin of "pride" which would keep me from seeking help. because the only help I know I can get would only bring judgment and condemnation. Not love.




No I disagree. The person is not going to be kept from heaven because he is a serial killer. Christ paid for that sin. He is going to not make it to heaven because he has not repented. He does not think he is doing wrong. or he would at least try to stop it and get help. Again, that is the difference betwen a licentious gospel, and a legalistic gospel of works. A licentious gospel teaches you say a few words and your in;. A legalistic gospel says you have faith. say a few words. then stop doing this and that, and do this or that or else your free gift is taken away. Both are evil gospels not from God.



God can only change us if we allow him. God may change many of my sin habits. One might be so strong a desire I have that I can't break it. Does God condemn me because I could not make it and stop a particular sin? even though I found victory in many others?

I think this goes for all of us, or we would be sinless. Grace says God loves us even when we fail. Legalism says if we fail, we are condemned.

Yes there would be. I would suffer from the results of being a drunk. I would not be usefull to God. I would not be blessed by God. I would struggle to do anything for God. In other words, I would not reap the benefits the kingdom of God should bring me.

I am a smoker. I have stopped smoking many times. Once I stopped for almost a year. But I have fallen again. Does it mean I think it is ok? No. Does it mean God can not help me? No. Does it mean I am weak in faith God can help me? Yes. Does it mean I am condemned to hell because I can't quit? No. This is no different than a man addicted to alcohol or a man addicted to sex. They may have victory. They may have only small victories but fall back again. Does it mean God does not love them? Does it mean they are condemned because they do not have the strength or trust to break this habit.

I hope I showed you the contradiction. As I said, If paul is condemning sinners. He can not teach a gospel of grace apart from our righteous deeds.

Yes God can help us. It does not mean we will always have faith he can. God will not force us. We have to learn to trust him. As the one man said, I have little faith. Help me have more faith. Sometimes this is easier said than done.

EG

I am just going to give some short and simple answers to some of your points. There comes a time when if the same point is continuously debated that the usefulness of it being debated ceases.

1)

I may have given you an extreme example of the man committing rape, murder etc but it proves the point. We can using head theology say 'all sin is sin' and from one view point that is correct as I earlier explained, so will not go over it again here. But I have never met any Christian(and I have met a lot believe me) who would believe all sin is viewed the same if continually committed by someone who professes Christianity. It just does not happen that way
Paul insisted that the man sleeping with his Father's wife be put out of the church, but Paul knew the Corinthian church was not sinless didn't he. But he did not instruct that all the members were put out of the church
But when we are led to believe the man ceased being in a relationship with his Father's mother Paul instructed them to bring him back into the church. So all sin is not viewed the same.

I am not going to respond publically to an individual case, if you want a reply to the instance given please pm me

King Davids wives

The Pharisees said to Jesus that according to Moses law a man could simply write his wife a letter of dismissal to divorce her. Jesus saide that was a concession to their hard hearts, not what God desired to see.
If I remember correctly Solomon had over 300 wives but God became angry not because of the amount of wives he had, but because in the end he married some women from other countries who worshipped other gods. If God considered David or Solomon was committing adultery by having more thasn one wife He would have had to immediately instruct them of this. I do not see this mentioned in scripture
Could it not be that God made concessions to their hearts concerning having more than one wife, as Christ said He did concerning writing a letter of dismissal to your wife? That is my view of it anyway.

I do believe that we carry sin into our Christian life from our former life that is deep rooted that we in our hearts are desperate to be free from. I believe such sin is to be viewed very differently from the sin committed once a person has been set free of such sin(Spurgeon sees it this way too)

Can God heal anyone of sexual sin?

From what you have written(and that is all I can go by) It does not matter how weak the individual is, but how great God is to change them, if they understand the Gospel of grace, if they do not, they will not have the faith. I am assuming you are refering here to affairs

You could smoke and still give God first place in your heart. You could not have an affair and do the same. That answer could be gone into in detail but I don't want to get bogged down here

If Paul is condemning sinners he cannot teach a Gospel of grace apart from our righteous deeds

Paul was the greatest preacher of grace this world has ever seen. He said he was the worst of sinners. But he knew the power and victory available in the true Gospel of grace. I cannot write it all out again here to make the point.
It is not 'our righteous dees' it is what Christ does in us and the Holy Spirit sanctifies us.

And Spurgeon who preached grace as Paul wrote it and saw prostitues chanfged, their hearts become as he said 'pure as the driven snow'
Alcoholics totally changed as the starving flocked to his services. But he said that certain sin if not dealt wigth would keep a person from Heaven

And I believe that if the full and true Gospel of grace Paul wrote was preached in any church today that church would be packed with standing room only as the desperate and starving would flock to that church, and that to my mind is without question
Someone said
The non Christian could probably recognise a miracle far faster than most who go to church and they would respond to the pure truth of the Gospel of grace being preached.

It is not a Gospel of our deeds, it is a Gospel where Christ won the victory at calvary, but so many settle for a ten cent Christianity where one of thousand dollar bills is on offer

One more point

If a man went to Red's church and claimed to be a Christian, and in the next year he killed six people and committed ten rapes and got drunk every night of the week, would Red put his arm round him and say

Don't worry about the sin brother, God is dealing with it, you are under grace, none of your sin will be counted against you, it takes longer for some than others to see the victory, but God is patient and don't let anyone tell you different. You are assured of your place in Heaven'

But then again, I cannot be sure what Red would say!

Therte is head theology and heartfelt belief being convicted by the Holy Spirit and it is the latter that the Christian needs

 

[livingbygrace]

sorry I tried to format it right. it is all messed up!!

EG

I don't really like to keep putting up ther following scriptures because some may feel a works based Gospel is being preached which it isn't. But the Gospel of grace MUST BRING RESULTS FOR THE CROSS OF CHRIST IS NOT WEAK, and this is the point to all of this

But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyonme who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolator or a slanderer a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you niot to judge those inside?
God will judge those outside. Ex0pel the wicked man from among you

1 Cor 5:11&12

That is my last comment on this subject, I am concerned some may think a works based Gospel is being spoken of, it is not.

But anyone living in the truth of grace(not what they may believe is living in grace) will see by faith in Christ much victory in their life over sin, they have to because sins power to be their master has been broken. And it is Christ who changes them, so it is not their own works

I hope you have read my comments on Gal 2:17&18 for I do not therefore believe in a Gospel where upon conversion a person is immediuately expected to see all of these issues dealt with
Neither do I say that a person cannot fall or slip up, we all do. But there is a great difference between that and a life that does not change and see much victory over sin. And a life lived in grace must see that victory, otherwise the person is not living in the grace of the Gospel

I will leave it there, thank you for the discussion

 

[Red33]

One more point

If a man went to Red's church and claimed to be a Christian, and in the next year he killed six people and committed ten rapes and got drunk every night of the week, would Red put his arm round him and say

Don't worry about the sin brother, God is dealing with it, you are under grace, none of your sin will be counted against you, it takes longer for some than others to see the victory, but God is patient and don't let anyone tell you different. You are assured of your place in Heaven'

But then again, I cannot be sure what Red would say!

Therte is head theology and heartfelt belief being convicted by the Holy Spirit and it is the latter that the Christian needs

I think you have it a little twisted as usual and you like to pervert grace and make it appear to be something it is not so that you can accuse others and discredit them. That's par for the course but to address what you have said...

This next 'strawman' you have created would be in jail and not sitting in my church and God would have to minister to him behind bars (in this country) and thank God for that. I would go and visit him and give him the message that his sin has found him out and got him into alot of trouble and a terrible mess and that he will have to be judged by the law of the land for his crimes against humanity. It could cost him his life and is he prepared to met his Maker. Being behind bars is a great place for God to meet sinners because they can't go anywhere, they have had time to think about what they have done and they are in a good place to listen to what you have to say, for the most part.

There is not one of their horrendous sins that they have committed that was not paid for by the blood of Christ on the cross. They can be forgiven and cleansed from their wicked sin and be justified by grace in an instant. All they have to do is believe that Christ shed His blood for their wicked sins and is available to cleanse them by His blood. God deals with their heart and brings conviction into that heart through His mercy and grace. If a man responds to that conviction despite all his wicked sin and calls upon the name of the Lord by faith, God will save that man and justify him and cleanse him, leaving that man without a single sin in his life. That is the goodness of God that is available to sinful men when they agree with God against themselves and receive forgiveness and cleansing.

Is that the kind of church that preaches and ministers that kind of grace that you go to? Is that the kind of justice and love that God was in Christ ministering to the world through reconciliation by not imputing their sins and trespasses unto them? Is this the word and ministry of mercy and reconciliation that we have been given by grace to take into all the world?

You have this strange idea that grace has no power to deliver the guilty if they don't repent of their sin, but God commended His love toward us while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and put our sin away (Rom 5:8) and when we believe, as a sinner, upon Christ and what he did, we shall be saved. We could not believe unless God draws us and turns us to His Son. Believing on the cross and what was done to our sin is the focal point not me repenting of sin, for that does nothing. Being sorry for sin does not save me, but believing upon the one who shed His blood and was crucified for my sin does and that is redemption and it is all by grace through faith with no works on our part (not even repentance of sin).

 

[zone]

That is a good back up isn't it!! Many fall back on those words when they are uncomfortable with what Paul wrote

Still. you didn't dissapoint me, you contrived a way to overturn plain scripture

you mean overturn YOUR "plain scripture" reading?
the same plain words that tell us Jesus is a created entity?
the same plain words that tell us the apostolic era "giftings" are for today?
the same plain words by paul who said NO WOMEN in ministry?

zone:
Romans 7 is about the believer’s relationship to THE LAW, and THE LAW'S inability to sanctify.

Well that of course is true, but not the way you mean it.

zone:
soooo....i got it partly right, so tell me what he meant i got wrong.

So Paul spent the whole of his Christian life being consumed by lust and concupiscence, a slave to sin, and doing the things he did not want to do, and instead of doing the good he wanted to do he kept doing the evil he did not want to do.

zone:
uh.....huh? did he? or did he spend ONE CHAPTER teaching about the new believer, sin, sin & The Law, before proceeding to the believer and the Spirit....

Paul was a t-e-a-c-h-e-r. right?

THANK GOD HE CHOSE A GOOD TEACHER LIKE PAUL WHO WAS ABLE TO EXPLAIN TO THE NEW CONVERT WHAT HE/SHE WOULD EXPERIENCE, and that it was normal for the newly regenerate to try to war that way, but he then leads the believer into the way of victory in following chptrs.

Paul so perfectly describes the warring that goes on when we struggle with sin REFERENCING THE LAW, and whatever the sin or lust issue, he shows us the Law is good, we are not, the Law can't sanctify.

did i get it wrong LBG?....tell me about Romans 6, 7 and 8 please.

i know some peole have to rip Romans 7 out of its beautiful polemic position and pretend its him thinking back to being Saul.....i feel sorry for those people because they miss the teaching entirely.

But then he demanded that others put to death the misdeeds of the body and said that those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. He also said that we are not controlled by the sinful nature if the spirit of God lives in us.(ch 8)

ya....they miss the teaching, interup the flow, and make a muddy mess of the whole thing.
these lazy people who claim to just like"the plain" words of scripture never quite get around to reading with understanding as paul takes the new convert through their journey of a new awareness of their sin, their new knowledge of the Law, the law's inbility to sanctify them, no matter how good they try to be....then in to the wonder and majesty of the new believer understanding that he is NO LONGER an unregenerate man, but is indeed born again by The Spirit and in this way will see his victories.

nah....we gotta tear and cut up that beautiful book to make it fit our "plain reading".


But in ch 7 when you say he is speaking of when he was a Christian, he was controlled by the sinful nature and a slave to sin
That would kinda make Paul a hypocrite I think, which I KNOW HE WAS NOT


*shrug*
try reading it again. i dunno. whatever.

It seems to me Zone you are trying reeeeeeeeeeal hard here to try and tell me that a Christian is a slave to sin and therefore controlled by their lower nature.

zone:
i can't help it if you don't understand Romans.
and i've given my testimony before.

let's see.........you mean: this isn't what your church looks like?



maybe you're right about me. i didn't know i had to quit drinking and using IV drugs and stuff!
tsk. DARN IT. do i have give back the guns and money i stole yesterday?

can i keep the guy i dragged home last night?

i wish i'd read Romans "plainly". now i'll have to figure out how to "walk in the Spirit"....is it kind of like struggling against the Law? is it something i DO beacuse i'm cool and saved and obedient?

or is it something i do NOW THAT I AM REGENERATE?

You seem almost desperate that people accept the Paul of Rom ch 7 was speaking of when he was a Christian. And any mention of sin being overcome in a persons life by faith in Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit seems to bring accusations of an attempt at being super Holy and a person claiming perfection and a Phariseeical attitude

zone:
you're willing to do and say anything to discredit me because of your own heretical beliefs.
not my problem....your problem.

i've overcome more sin than you'll ever committ LBG
difference between you and me is i don't brag (but oh-so"humbly") about how holy and obedient i am.

I can only wonder why all this is

zone:
i have no idea why you can not see clearly. pray about it.
the evidence shows the carnal desire for the charismatic superstars and their signs and wonders dulls the true spiritual senses. *shrug* just something to think about

zone:
if you understood that, you would know why Chapter 6 is about the believer and SIN.

I understand why many try and convince themselves of what you are saying here

zone:
um.......because it's the correct reading? you mean....6 ISN'T about the believer and SIN?
(i'll wait for your exposition of those chapters then please. enlighten me.)

zone:
then you would understand Chapter 8.

Ch 8 is so different because now Paul is living in the truth of grace

zone:
OH! so the chapters are a trip through PAUL'S journey. its not teaching for the reader to understand what their conversion experience is about.

all that trouble in 6 & 7 and NOW paul is living in the truth of grace. whew! glad he made it in time to write most of the NT.

 

[livingbygrace]

I think you have it a little twisted as usual and you like to pervert grace and make it appear to be something it is not so that you can accuse others and discredit them. That's par for the course but to address what you have said...

This next 'strawman' you have created would be in jail and not sitting in my church and God would have to minister to him behind bars (in this country) and thank God for that. I would go and visit him and give him the message that his sin has found him out and got him into alot of trouble and a terrible mess and that he will have to be judged by the law of the land for his crimes against humanity. It could cost him his life and is he prepared to met his Maker. Being behind bars is a great place for God to meet sinners because they can't go anywhere, they have had time to think about what they have done and they are in a good place to listen to what you have to say, for the most part.

There is not one of their horrendous sins that they have committed that was not paid for by the blood of Christ on the cross. They can be forgiven and cleansed from their wicked sin and be justified by grace in an instant. All they have to do is believe that Christ shed His blood for their wicked sins and is available to cleanse them by His blood. God deals with their heart and brings conviction into that heart through His mercy and grace. If a man responds to that conviction despite all his wicked sin and calls upon the name of the Lord by faith, God will save that man and justify him and cleanse him, leaving that man without a single sin in his life. That is the goodness of God that is available to sinful men when they agree with God against themselves and receive forgiveness and cleansing.

Is that the kind of church that preaches and ministers that kind of grace that you go to? Is that the kind of justice and love that God was in Christ ministering to the world through reconciliation by not imputing their sins and trespasses unto them? Is this the word and ministry of mercy and reconciliation that we have been given by grace to take into all the world?

You have this strange idea that grace has no power to deliver the guilty if they don't repent of their sin, but God commended His love toward us while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us and put our sin away (Rom 5:8) and when we believe, as a sinner, upon Christ and what he did, we shall be saved. We could not believe unless God draws us and turns us to His Son. Believing on the cross and what was done to our sin is the focal point not me repenting of sin, for that does nothing. Being sorry for sin does not save me, but believing upon the one who shed His blood and was crucified for my sin does and that is redemption and it is all by grace through faith with no works on our part (not even repentance of sin).

And I thought for a moment you may have addressed the point in question, oh well.