Can someone lose their salvation?

[livingbygrace]

so....you can't do it i guess.
thats' okay.
Oh I am happy to leave you with your thoughts, sarcasm, pride in your knowledge, such mature Christianity. But I guess that is what' head knowledge' produces


thanks anyways.
maybe some other time.

(i know what you mean about wearying over the suuuuuuper long debates over imaginary things)

Your welcome. Enjoy your 'head theology'

And of course, how could I ever compete with someone who knows better than Jesus what belief is required to have eternal life. After all he cannot have explained properly what belief is required, but luckily for us you are here, to further expound the neccessary beliefs required

 

[livingbygrace]

It sure does and I have never deserved it but was available to be taught from those that do know the grace of God and have been through the fire and have come out of it with purity of heart. I like to learn from those that have lived and experienced the grace of God by faith. That have allowed the cross to crucify and reduce them to nothing so that they would have to depend on the grace of God. Men who recognize their own depravity and have nothing but mercy and grace toward others.

They are men that do not try to be spiritual but allow God through the Holy Spirit to give them an abundant of grace in all things. They do not take grace for granted but embrace it because it comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, who was full of grace and truth. These are true men of God that are not foolish enough to charge God's grace of not providing a perfect and complete salvation to keep the believer hid with Christ in God. Only those that have no capacity for God's matchless grace could consider such a strange thing about God's nature and great salvation that was provided through Christ to sinful man.

Would you say that you have purity of heart?

Have you been reduced to nothing in and of yourself?

Have you nothing but mercy and grace towards others in your heart?

 

[Red33]

The problem is here that your 'head theology' is ridiculous, so you have not the courage to answer the question continually asked, so you have no choice but to deflect, deflect, deflect. But as you feel you are such an authority on scripture you can deny so much of the basics for your own personal brand of grace, no wonder you come unstuck and have to shy away from answering so many questions put to you

Do you think that 'head knowledge' can't be put into practice by faith? When we receive God's knowledge through the word and doctrine is goes right into the mind (Rom 7:25). Then God provides a plan for that knowledge to be put into practice and it is done when we mix faith with that knowledge and obey God in the plan (Heb 4:2). That's called wisdom, the application of knowledge (Prov 4:7).

When we have applied God's word and doctrine to a situation or detail in the plan of God, we gain understanding and experiential knowledge. The 'head knowledge' becomes experiential knowledge when applied by faith and God gives us grace to do that so that we can grow in grace and knowledge of Christ (2Pt 3:18). All that head knowledge in the mind gets transferred to the heart to establish our heart in grace (Heb 13:9). This is what gives us a capacity in our heart to grow and be established in the grace of God.

The more we do this the stronger we get in grace (Lk 2:40, 2Tim 2:1) and the more we understand the sufficiency of God's grace in all things (2Cor 12:9). Now that is good sound doctrine for the believer and something he can sink his teeth into because it's meat and it the will of God (Jn 4:34, Heb 5:12-14).

 

[Red33]

Would you say that you have purity of heart?

Have you been reduced to nothing in and of yourself?

Have you nothing but mercy and grace towards others in your heart?

We have these things as much as God has been able to work them in our life through His plan, through the cross and our cooperation through faith. In the measure that we have grown in grace and knowledge through His plan, will be the same measure that we have these things in our heart to reveal Christ to those in need. You understand that? I hope so, because it is loaded!

 

[livingbygrace]

Do you think that 'head knowledge' can't be put into practice by faith?

No I do not. It doesn't work like that.

I hear people who have much 'head knowledge' on this and another site tell people they are heretics if they do or do not believe in filique, they are heretics if they do or do not believe in the pre trib rapture, and they are heretics if they believe much else besides

But most of these people will not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the neccessary belief in him for a person to have eternal life

It is not that I wish to repeat myself, but you did ask the question

Therefore, would the Holy Spirit contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ concerning how a person must see him to have eternal life

Answer, definately not

Therefore we have people driven by a 'head knoiwledge' that is not Holy Spirit inspired. Therefore they are speaking for themselves, and scripoture tells us they are then seeking honour for themselves, quite simple really

But the person who loves God and seeks in true humility from the heart to know truth. does not trust in themselves for understanding and earnestly asks God from the bottom of their heart to show them truth.
They totally rely on the Holy Spirit to show them truth, for in themselves thery know they can know nothnig. So there is no room for pride in any knowledge the Christian has and understands. And true knowledge depends on loving God and from the heart yielding to him, for then the Holy Spirit becomes more dominant in the person and reveals therefore more truth to them

And the surest wayu to know a true Christian is not whether they believe in filique or not(but one example) but whether from their heart they truly want God to have all the glory, therefore they cannot seek to impress man, that would be utterly impossible


So anyone who wants to impress their 'knowledge' on anyone else and is proud of heart definately is consumed by 'head theology' that in effect is their god.

When the Holy Spirit reveals truth it goes straight to the heart, not the head

 

[Red33]

Do you think that 'head knowledge' can't be put into practice by faith?

No I do not. It doesn't work like that.

I hear people who have much 'head knowledge' on this and another site tell people they are heretics if they do or do not believe in filique, they are heretics if they do or do not believe in the pre trib rapture, and they are heretics if they believe much else besides

But most of these people will not accept the plain and continuous words of Christ as to the neccessary belief in him for a person to have eternal life

It is not that I wish to repeat myself, but you did ask the question

Therefore, would the Holy Spirit contradict the plain and continuous words of Christ concerning how a person must see him to have eternal life

Answer, definately not

Therefore we have people driven by a 'head knoiwledge' that is not Holy Spirit inspired. Therefore they are speaking for themselves, and scripoture tells us they are then seeking honour for themselves, quite simple really

But the person who loves God and seeks in true humility from the heart to know truth. does not trust in themselves for understanding and earnestly asks God from the bottom of their heart to show them truth.
They totally rely on the Holy Spirit to show them truth, for in themselves thery know they can know nothnig. So there is no room for pride in any knowledge the Christian has and understands. And true knowledge depends on loving God and from the heart yielding to him, for then the Holy Spirit becomes more dominant in the person and reveals therefore more truth to them

And the surest wayu to know a true Christian is not whether they believe in filique or not(but one example) but whether from their heart they truly want God to have all the glory, therefore they cannot seek to impress man, that would be utterly impossible


So anyone who wants to impress their 'knowledge' on anyone else and is proud of heart definately is consumed by 'head theology' that in effect is their god.

When the Holy Spirit reveals truth it goes straight to the heart, not the head

Is does work like that and it's the same for all believers. To put it simply, you have set yourself into a 'spiritual rut' with your understanding and you keep spinning and grooving your way deeper into that 'rut'. Reach up and grab hold of God's grace while you can lest the Holy Spirit become your adversary.

 

[livingbygrace]

Is does work like that and it's the same for all believers. To put it simply, you have set yourself into a 'spiritual rut' with your understanding and you keep spinning and grooving your way deeper into that 'rut'. Reach up and grab hold of God's grace while you can lest the Holy Spirit become your adversary.

You mean by refusing to accept the plain words of Christ as to the required belief in him to have everlasting life

And by seeking praise from man rather than the praise that comes from the one true God

Should I call people heretics and tell them they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist if they stand on plain scripture for belief

Should I demand that people believe what is not written in the Bible

Should I believe I have such knowledge that I have the spiritual authority to do so

Should I lash out at people and be nasty to them if they will not accept what I say

Will the above give me God's grace?

 

[Red33]

You mean by refusing to accept the plain words of Christ as to the required belief in him to have everlasting life

And by seekling praise from man rather than the praise that comes from the one true God

Should I call people heretics and tell them they are possessed by the spirit of antichrist if they stand on plain scripture for belief

Should I lash out at people and be nasty to them if they will not accept what I say

Will the above give me God's grace?

Not only are you in a 'spiritual rut' but you also have a psychological complex with all of these introspections listed, that come from your own insecurity concerning your position to the greatness of God's mercy and grace. It doesn't have to be that way and any doctrines that you have been seduced by and given place to, that has caused confusion in your understanding, can also be remedied by a steady intake of sound doctrine that comes from an approved pastor-teacher in your neck of the woods. Being without a local assembly it won't be easy, because you need the edification and the supply of God's grace from other believers in your life. But you like to go it alone and do your own thing and that is not going to cut it and will only limit you to the grace of God that Jesus Christ, as the head, is revealing to those that assemble themselves together with other believers under a pastor-teacher.

 

[livingbygrace]

Not only are you in a 'spiritual rut' but you also have a psychological complex with all of these introspections listed, that come from your own insecurity concerning your position to the greatness of God's mercy and grace. It doesn't have to be that way and any doctrines that you have been seduced by and given place to, that has caused confusion in your understanding, can also be remedied by a steady intake of sound doctrine that comes from an approved pastor-teacher in your neck of the woods. Being without a local assembly it won't be easy, because you need the edification and the supply of God's grace from other believers in your life. But you like to go it alone and do your own thing and that is not going to cut it and will only limit you to the grace of God that Jesus Christ, as the head, is revealing to those that assemble themselves together with other believers under a pastor-teacher.

Well after reading your beliefs Red, I consider myself fortunate not to be at a church that teaches what you have been taught

 

[Red33]

Well after reading your beliefs Red, I consider myself fortunate not to be at a church that teaches what you have been taught

... taught that grace and mercy is for everyone no matter what kind of sinner they may be and God's great salvation is for them. A local church that has taken that grace into all the world and preached the gospel with it and trained up disciples in over (80+) countries with over (400) established local churches and assemblies of believers. This grace bears fruit, forgives sins, edifies and builds up believer no matter where they come from or what culture or social background. This grace sees them all one in Christ without being a respecter of persons or a judge of evil thoughts. This grace has seen over the past (35) years 1,000s of souls come to Christ and be freed from sin and learn how to walk by faith in the grace of God, and that includes entire families over three generations. I wouldn't call that kind of transforming grace too shabby, if you do, then you do not know the grace of God in action or its fruit and maybe for you it is just 'head knowledge' with not life.

 

[livingbygrace]

... taught that grace and mercy is for everyone no matter what kind of sinner they may be and God's great salvation is for them.
I would hope we all know that Red. I would not have to learn that from a church


A local church that has taken that grace into all the world and preached the gospel with it and trained up disciples in over (80+) countries with over (400) established local churches and assemblies of believers. This grace bears fruit, forgives sins, edifies and builds up believer no matter where they come from or what culture or social background.
I hope they did not teach them that it does not matter how they act they are saved regardless

This grace sees them all one in Christ without being a respecter of persons or a judge of evil thoughts. This grace has seen over the past (35) years 1,000s of souls come to Christ and be freed from sin and learn how to walk by faith in the grace of God, and that includes entire families over three generations. I wouldn't call that kind of transforming grace too shabby, if you do, then you do not know the grace of God in action or its fruit and maybe for you it is just 'head knowledge' with not life.

So if all this is true, why are you like you are? A genuine question. Has the church failed with you?

 

[livingbygrace]

so....you can't do it i guess.
thats' okay.

thanks anyways.
maybe some other time.

(i know what you mean about wearying over the suuuuuuper long debates over imaginary things)

Tell you what I'll do Zone. Lets you and me go through the first eight chapters of Romans together

I'll do an exposition of a chapter then you do one and so on. You can add your own thoughts to my chapters and me yours. Hows that?

Now obviously I have grammatical errors as you have lovingly pointed out. I can only hope if you agree to this you will be patient and bear with my lack of grammer in love

Also I have not read up on theologians as you have and have not put in the 'hard work' in this area as have you, neither would I say I am an authority on scripture, so I hope you will in love bear with my failings
Also as I have never done anything like this before I hope you will be especially patient with me and bear with me as I am sure you will at times find my inadequate exposition exasperating

So if you agree I will get statrted on CH 1 and then it is up to you if you continue with ch 2 or not, but at least I have shown willing.

RED

As this would be expositions by Zone and I, if possible could you reserve your criticism of what I write until we have finished all eight chapters. I want to be able to fully concentrate on my dialogue with Zone.

Zone, if you agree to do this, please do not make your expositions too long of each chapter, I have trouble concentrating on too much at a time to read
Thank you

CH 1

verses 1-4

Paul affirms he is a servant of Christ and called to be an Apostle of Christ who was foretold through the scriptures and was through the spirit declared to be the son of God

In verse 5 Paul who had been an arch Pharisee sets out his stall of the Gospel he has been called to preach. He stresses that obediance comes from faith.

Paul then exhorts the faith of the people he is writing to and and affirms he longs to see them.

He is not ashamed of the Gospel which is for all Jew and Gentile.

verse 17

Paul after writing that we have an obediance that comes from faith now goes further and says our righteousness before God is also by faith, and this is from first to last, the whole of our Christian lives
In other words. We could be burned alive for preaching the Gospel and give all we had to the poor but we would still only have one righteousness for Heaven, faith, and that is also our obediance.

Paul then goes on to speak of God's wrath against mankind for their ungodliness and wickedness. God's invisible qualities have been plain to see since the begining of creation from what has been made so man is without excuse to deny God exists.

Although man thought himself so wise he was foolish, exchanging the glory of God for man made images

So God gave them over to the sinful desires of their heart. Paul then speaks of the sinfulness of man, his depravity and the evil he commits. Paul says that man knew God's righteous decrees but ignored them, even though he knew he deserved death for doing so.
A pretty bleak picture of man is portrayed

Well I am sure that is not much of a start but at least I am showing willing

Please feel free to add ot what I hjave written. If you feel I should be writing more please tell me

I will do an exposition of ch 3 once you have done one on ch 2

 

[zone]

Tell you what I'll do Zone. Lets you and me go through the first eight chapters of Romans together

I'll do an exposition of a chapter then you do one and so on. You can add your own thoughts to my chapters and me yours. Hows that?

~

um...nooooo....... but thank you.

i wanted to see your reading of it. if it flows, what illustrative language paul uses in each, how they are more than the sum total of each part. i don't think your reading/understanding would be fairly presented this way you propose. (not sure what it has to do with me - i could do one later i guess...but you already know what i believe)

the "team" idea might be an interesting experiment for some other time and purpose, though.

so...just carry on...i wanted to see your reading.
zone

CH 1

verses 1-4

Paul affirms he is a servant of Christ and called to be an Apostle of Christ who was foretold through the scriptures and was through the spirit declared to be the son of God

In verse 5 Paul who had been an arch Pharisee sets out his stall of the Gospel he has been called to preach. He stresses that obediance comes from faith.

Paul then exhorts the faith of the people he is writing to and and affirms he longs to see them.

He is not ashamed of the Gospel which is for all Jew and Gentile.

verse 17

Paul after writing that we have an obediance that comes from faith now goes further and says our righteousness before God is also by faith, and this is from first to last, the whole of our Christian lives
In other words. We could be burned alive for preaching the Gospel and give all we had to the poor but we would still only have one righteousness for Heaven, faith, and that is also our obediance.

Paul then goes on to speak of God's wrath against mankind for their ungodliness and wickedness. God's invisible qualities have been plain to see since the begining of creation from what has been made so man is without excuse to deny God exists.

Although man thought himself so wise he was foolish, exchanging the glory of God for man made images

So God gave them over to the sinful desires of their heart. Paul then speaks of the sinfulness of man, his depravity and the evil he commits. Paul says that man knew God's righteous decrees but ignored them, even though he knew he deserved death for doing so.
A pretty bleak picture of man is portrayed

Well I am sure that is not much of a start but at least I am showing willing

Please feel free to add ot what I hjave written. If you feel I should be writing more please tell me

I will do an exposition of ch 3 once you have done one on ch 2

 

[AnandaHya]

lol hey Zone here's a sermon on Romans 3. sorry haven't had a chance to read/listen to it yet but just thought I'd throw it out there LBG if you wanted another viewpoint

http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2010-07-04am-PJ.mp3

phil Johnson is a pastor recommended by a friend thanks.

http://www.swordandtrowel.org/philsermons.htm

 

[livingbygrace]

~

um...nooooo....... but thank you.

i wanted to see your reading of it. if it flows, what illustrative language paul uses in each, how they are more than the sum total of each part. i don't think your reading/understanding would be fairly presented this way you propose. (not sure what it has to do with me - i could do one later i guess...but you already know what i believe)

the "team" idea might be an interesting experiment for some other time and purpose, though.

so...just carry on...i wanted to see your reading.
zone

OK

But I would have commented on the chapters you did expositions on so I would have commented on all the chapters you requested

But OK, never mind. I've never been asked to do a sermon/exposition on three continuous chapters before, not being a theologian or scholar I would have found it more interseting this way

 

[livingbygrace]

lol hey Zone here's a sermon on Romans 3. sorry haven't had a chance to read/listen to it yet but just thought I'd throw it out there LBG if you wanted another viewpoint

http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2010-07-04am-PJ.mp3

phil Johnson is a pastor recommended by a friend thanks.

Sermons :: Pastor Phil Johnson

I'll tell you what I think of Rom ch 3 a little later, I won't go to the link first

Have to go for a while, the wife is calling, and I am an obediant husband

I tried to get my wife to read all Paul wrote on the role of woman but she wasn't interested

 

[livingbygrace]

lol hey Zone here's a sermon on Romans 3. sorry haven't had a chance to read/listen to it yet but just thought I'd throw it out there LBG if you wanted another viewpoint

http://gracelifepulpit.media.s3.amazonaws.com/GL-2010-07-04am-PJ.mp3

phil Johnson is a pastor recommended by a friend thanks.

Sermons :: Pastor Phil Johnson

Hi Anandya

Can I cheat and statrt at verse 9?

In Romans one and two Paul seems to speak much of the sinfulness of man, by the time we get to verse 9 of ch 3 he seems to me to sum up the state of man in verses that by some are described as the 'Total depravity of man.'

verse 9

What then shall we conclude? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written

There is no-one righteous, not even one
There is n-one who understands, no-one who seeks God
All have turned away, they have together become worthless
There is no-one who does good, not even one
Their throats are open graves
Their tongues practice deceit
The poison of vipers in on their lips
Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness
Their feet are swift to shed blood
Ruin and misery mark their ways
And the way of peace they do not know
There is no fear of God before their eyes

So it seems the law given to Moses had not made the Jews a Godly people. They were as guilty as the Gentiles. When I read those verses it just keeps hitting me that no-one could ever be good enough for God, we are all inherrently sinful.
So the standards God set could not be met by man
And how did man know what God required? Well the Jews had been given the law, but according to Paul the law when given had resulted in more sinning, the law did not just reveal the sin(Rom 5:20)

So no-one could be good enough, not one, the whole world was hushed and guilty before God.

Whether you had God's good laws as a Jew, or whether you were expected to believe in God because of all you saw that he had made(Rom 1:20) no-one could persist in doing good and living as God required

Now we know that whatever the law says is says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather througfh the law we become concious of sin
verses19&20

Verse 20 has always been impressed on my mind. The law can only make us concious of our sin. Whenever we strive to be good enough for God, we just become aware of our faliures and sin. So if we are sincere and really want to be with God in our hearts it all seems hopeless from those verses doesn't it. If we try to live a good life for God(has to be trying in effect to obey His good laws) we will fail and simply become concious of our sin. Our very effort it seems to strive to live as God would have us live can only result in faliure and we stand condemned.(I wish I could mention Rom 7 here but I suspect that would be cheating)

But then Paul speaks of a righteousness from God apart from being good enough(the law) The arch Pharisee who had pinned his hopes of Heaven on obnediance to the law was now speaking of a righteousness apart from obediance to it. So man had a righteousness with God apart from being good enough, wow! He didn't have to struggle to attain a certain level of goodness to be with God, secure with him. And then for the first time in Romans he tells us what this righteousness is, faith in Christ.
Paul tells us that God justifies the one who has faith in Christ.
Paul then tells us that boasting is excluded, because we are not saved by being good enough/righteous by standards of goodness, but by faith in Christ who died for us. We are justified apart from obnserving the law

When I was a child I believed Christ died for the sins I committed before I becamec a Christian, but after that I was in effect back under law. The slate was wiped clean, but after that I had to shape up myself to what God required. I just found myself back at verse 20 that way. Chjrist died for ALL our sin.

Don't know about you but I often wonder how many Christians really in their heart believe their only righteousness in God's eyes for the whole of their Christian life is faith in Christ. The natural temptation of man is to try and earn what he gets, he must deserve what he gets. How many Christians slip back after conversion and with all good intyntion try and be good enough, maintain a righteousness of their own in effect for God? And how many actually stand on faith in Christ no matter what happens, knowing they are saved and kept by trusting him. Easy to say, but not always easy to do

So God justifies Jew and Gentile through faith ion his son though they have done nothing to deserve it, and they have not observed the law to be justified. A persons justification/righteousness before God had nothnig to do with the law, just faith in Christ. The law was irrelevant to this process

Now Paul must have known what the charge wpould be with this approach

'If I am not justified in God's sight by observing the law I can do what I want, I don't have to be 'good enough' to be saved or strive to obey the law, so I may as well ignore it and live as I please.

But in one of the most understated verses in the NT IMO Paul put that notion to bed.

Do we then nullify the law byu this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
verse 31

So according to Paul. By not living under the law, by not having to observe the law or strive to be good enough to get to Heaven, the law would be upheld in our lives. Why?

 

[AnandaHya]

ok listen to the sermon and tell me what you think...

 

[Red33]

So if all this is true, why are you like you are? A genuine question. Has the church failed with you?

Do you doubt that a local assembly of believers that God has His hand upon can have that kind of fruit? I have not been failed by God because He is faithful, or by the local assembly or the grace of God. The new testament church is built up and upon the word and doctrine and the grace of God is upon it. This is what can happen any where in the world, and it is happening in the world when believers abide in Christ and let His words abide in them. The focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one that is magnified and preached in all the world. He is the one on the throne of His grace and the life we have comes from an ascended Lord. We are to seek those things from above where Christ sits, at the right hand of God, and set our affections on things above (Col 3:2).

 

[livingbygrace]

Do you doubt that a local assembly of believers that God has His hand upon can have that kind of fruit? I have not been failed by God because He is faithful, or by the local assembly or the grace of God. The new testament church is built up and upon the word and doctrine and the grace of God is upon it. This is what can happen any where in the world, and it is happening in the world when believers abide in Christ and let His words abide in them. The focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the one that is magnified and preached in all the world. He is the one on the throne of His grace and the life we have comes from an ascended Lord. We are to seek those things from above where Christ sits, at the right hand of God, and set our affections on things above (Col 3:2).

The church my mother went to has reached out in many countries. I went to some services with her during her terminal illness.
I remember one week the minister spoke of the Gospel of grace, but he only touched on it really, he never spoke in depth on the heart of what Paul wrote
But he said if he preached that sermon in the US he would not be invited back to half the churches he preached it in
I don''t know why. He only mentioned the Mosaic law and not being under it, he did not speak of the Ten Commandments at all, or expound on what Paul wrote in Romans, He did say there was nothing wrong with a drink of alcohol as long as a person did not get drunk.(that is a long long way from where that church was years ago) I was a bit disappointed if I am honest, but he was a nice man, always kind to me and my mother