Is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 A Pre-Trib Rapture As Many Teach?

[Truth7t7]

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[JaumeJ]

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The words are simple and clear; how anyone can think this is before the last day, is well beyond reason.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The words are simple and clear; how anyone can think this is before the last day, is well beyond reason.

A few things:

1)--"day" here speaks of a very lengthy duration of time "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire within it (it is not referring to "a singular 24-hr day");


2)--Paul (in 1Cor15:51-54--addressed to "the Church which is His body [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN]") said, "Behold, I shew you A MYSTERY..." and then proceeded to speak of "THIS corruptible" [i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"] and "THIS mortal" [i.e. the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto"], IOW a particular body of people to/for/about whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains (not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods), he's not referring to what, say, Martha and Job and Daniel (all OT saints) already WELL-KNEW!;


3)--in 1Th5:2-3 Paul's words agree with Jesus' words, when Paul said to the Thessalonians:
"2 for yourselves have known [perfect indicative] thoroughly that the day of the Lord as a thief in the night doth so come [/ARRIVE], 3 for when they may say, Peace and surety, then sudden destruction doth stand by them, as the travail [SINGULAR ("the PANG")--same word Jesus used in the PLURAL when He referred to "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]"] [doth] her who is with child, and they shall not escape,"
...IOW, the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes UPON a woman in labor... but MANY MORE "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" follow on from there (and we see Jesus described those in the early section of the Olivet Discourse: Matt24:4-8/Mk13:5-8/Lk21:8-11, but MUCH MORE comes AFTER those, even!... Those are just "THE BEGINNING" of what all will unfold upon the earth FOLLOWING that INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' ['a certain one' bringing deception]" [and in a few other parallel passages, same])

 

[Truth7t7]

--"day" here speaks of a very lengthy duration of time "IN WHICH" MUCH will transpire within it (it is not referring to "a singular 24-hr day");

No "The Last Day" does no mean a long period of time, it is (Singular) Day not Days

(The Last Day) is the time of Final Judgement, and no it's not a long period as you claim

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^


I've posted this before about the "days" (and/or "day") issues (the ones that are not "singular 24-hr days"):

Hosea 5:14-6:3 [re: Israel] -

14 For I am like a lion to Ephraim

and like a young lion to the house of Judah.

I, even I, will tear them to pieces

and then go away.

I will carry them off

where no one can rescue them.

15 Then I will return to My place

until they admit their [Israel's] guilt and seek My face;

in their [Israel's] affliction

they [Israel] will earnestly [or, early] seek Me.”

6:1 Come, let us [Israel] return to the LORD.

For He has torn us [Israel] to pieces,

but He will heal us [Israel];

He has wounded us [Israel],

but He will bind up our [Israel's] wounds.

2 After two days He will revive [H2421] us [Israel]; [see H2421 in Ezekiel 37 also, vv.3,5,6,9,10,14]

on/in the third day He will raise [H6965] us [Israel] up, [see H6965 in Isaiah 26 also, v.19]

that we [Israel] may live [H2421 (ditto the above note)] in His presence.

3 So let us [Israel] know—

let us [Israel] press on to know the LORD.

As surely as the sun rises, ['the SUN of righteousness ARISE' aspect of 'the Day of the Lord' time-period]

He will appear;

He will come to us [Israel] like the rain,

like the spring showers that water the earth [/as the latter rain unto the earth].



^ This last part corresponds with the parallel passages of Matthew 24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:12-13 (at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth FOLLOWING the Trib yrs):

12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one [note: not 'AS ONE' as we will be!], O ye children of Israel. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.
[i.e. they are gathered into one place upon the EARTH, from where THEY have been 'SCATTERED']




"The Day of the Lord" / "IN THAT DAY" includes all THREE ASPECTS:

1) the trib yrs (judgments unfolding upon the earth),

2) His Second Coming (RETURN to the earth) AND

3) the entire MK age (1000 yr reign on/over the earth)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verse 39 is speaking of a distinct thing from what v.40 is speaking of (tho both refer to the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19; Dan12:13[12]; etc)

--v.39 says, "[in order] that ALL THAT" (referring to certain THINGS [i.e. His (earthly) throne, His kingdom-rule/governance/judgment & rod/sceptre [Rev19:15b], etc, etc]);

--v.40 says, "[in order] that ALL WHO" (referring to PERSONS)



...Jesus is not merely repeating Himself here.

 

[Truth7t7]

Verse 39 is speaking of a distinct thing from what v.40 is speaking of (tho both refer to the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (Rev19; Dan12:13[12]; etc)

--v.39 says, "[in order] that ALL THAT" (referring to certain THINGS [i.e. His (earthly) throne, His kingdom-rule/governance & rod/sceptre [Rev19:15b], etc, etc]);

--v.40 says, "[in order] that ALL WHO" (referring to PERSONS)



...Jesus is not merely repeating Himself here.

Neither one of your post's disprove the fact that (Last Day) is singular, not multiple (Days) as you suggest

A very simple teaching, that the resurrection and judgement will be on the (Last Day) and you bend and twist to suit your need

We will disagree

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Acts 3:21 -
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophets and OT prophecies... the ones yet to be fulfilled, i.e. one of which is the promised AND PROPHESIED earthly Millennial Kingdom age--see also Acts 17:31 - "because He has fixed [/established] a day [not merely 'a singular 24-hr day'] in which He will judge the world in righteousness [see Psalm 72 the KING chpt] through/in a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead." ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "KING" is only used TWO times in all of the epistles... and both of them are "FUTURE"

in which He will judge the world in righteousness [see Psalm 72 the KING chpt] through/in a Man whom He has appointed [...]

https://biblehub.com/bsb/psalms/72.htm (Psalm 72--the KING chapter)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Neither one of your post's disprove the fact that (Last Day) is singular, not multiple (Days) as you suggest

Oh it's "singular" alright... it just is not "a singular 24-HR day," see (just like Hosea 5:14-6:3 shows...).

It speaks of a very lengthy time-period of MUCH DURATION, "in which" MUCH will transpire:

--"IN THE NIGHT" aspect (the trib yrs [judgments unfolding] upon the earth; when they will "LIGHT" the LAMPS)

--the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect (His "RETURN" to the earth--Rev19)

--the "REIGN... GLORIOUSLY" aspect (His 1000-yr reign on/over the earth)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"3 that day will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST, and [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED" (he is revealed when that time-period ARRIVES to unfold upon the earth with its judgments unfolding over the course of some time [i.e. when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Rev5:6, Isa3:13, etc etc, at the START of the trib years! (SEAL #1 opened)])

 

[JaumeJ]

Perhaps one needs to rethink the berb tenses and order of what is to occur stated by our quotes.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Perhaps one needs to rethink the berb tenses and order of what is to occur stated by our quotes.

Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean (perhaps you could clarify?), but in a different thread recently, I placed a parallel passage speaking of the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (and what immediately precedes and leads up TO THAT [i.e. NOT a "rapture passage"]) in the following:

Daniel 7 -

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them [see Rev13:5-7,1]; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints [comp Rev20:4a] of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean (perhaps you could clarify?), but in a different thread recently, I placed a parallel passage speaking of the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth (and what immediately precedes and leads up TO THAT [i.e. NOT a "rapture passage"]) in the following:

Daniel 7 -

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; 20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them [see Rev13:5-7,1]; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints [comp Rev20:4a] of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. 24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

You haven't changed the fact of the OP, the second coming, resurrection, and final judgement takes place on (The Last Day), there is no mortal earthly time beyond this

The OP is presented at a 5th grade level for understanding, basic, simple, and clear.

It appears you have a pre-determined bias, in maintaining John N. Darby's Dispensationalism's Pre-Trib Rapture, that doesn't exist in scripture.

 

[Scribe]

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

We'll see.

 

[Truth7t7]

We'll see.

You can lead a horse to water, and we pray that he drinks

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You haven't changed the fact of the OP, the second coming, resurrection, and final judgement takes place on (The Last Day), there is no mortal earthly time beyond this

Not "ON the last day".

The phrase is literally: "IN the last day" (and it is not 'a singular 24-hr day" kind--Just like Hosea 5:14-6:3 shows, and like Peter said to "BE NOT IGNORANT of this ONE THING" ! ).


As for the underlined part ^ , Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 correlates with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], where that passage [same as the Dan7 passage, and same as Rev20] shows that A TIME PERIOD *follows* that FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words, before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out (i.e. the GWTj in Rev20:11-15).

Isa24 -

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall PUNISH H6485 [1] the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/PUNISHED H6485 [2].
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.


The "Amill-teachings" rip out the phrase "and after many days" [the time-period following Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5] as though it does not exist. However, Scripture shows that it does.

 

[Truth7t7]

Not "ON the last day".

The phrase is literally: "IN the last day" (and it is not 'a singular 24-hr day" kind--Just like Hosea 5:14-6:3 shows, and like Peter said to "BE NOT IGNORANT of this ONE THING" ! ).


As for the underlined part ^ , Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 correlates with the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23], where that passage [same as the Dan7 passage, and same as Rev20] shows that A TIME PERIOD *follows* that FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words, before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out (i.e. the GWTj in Rev20:11-15).

Isa24 -

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall PUNISH H6485 [1] the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/PUNISHED H6485 [2].
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.


The "Amill-teachings" rip out the phrase "and after many days" [the time-period following Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5] as though it does not exist. However, Scripture shows that it does.

You aren't gonna convince me, (The Last Day) is the end of this world, there are no more days beyond (The Last Day)

Your only kidding yourself, and your presentation isn't convincing whatsoever.

You believe and teach of John N Darby's Pre-Trib rapture, it's my opinion you give this baseless argument, in a Pre-Determined bias to maintain this teaching

We will strongly disagree

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Pre-Mill = "and He SHALL SHEPHERD/RULE [FUTURE TENSE] them [the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]..." Rev19:15b

--this is what FOLLOWS His "RETURN" to the earth at that point in the chronology (i.e. "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come [on the earth]," etc)

--"nations" are located on the earth



... but, believe as you wish...


[for the readers: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal (G347; see this also Matt8:11 and parallel, etc)]

 

[Truth7t7]

Pre-Mill = "and He SHALL SHEPHERD/RULE [FUTURE TENSE] them [the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]..." Rev19:15b

--this is what FOLLOWS His "RETURN" to the earth at that point in the chronology (i.e. "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]," aka "the age [SINGULAR] to come [on the earth]," etc)

--"nations" are located on the earth



... but, believe as you wish...


[for the readers: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal (G347; see also Matt8:11 and parallel, etc)]

As I stated (Many Times) you postings are complete confusion, unreadable.

Caps, underline, bold, different sizes?

Complete Chaos

In Love