Is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 A Pre-Trib Rapture As Many Teach?

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

...says the one using "parenthesis" and "color"... and "capital letters" mid-sentence.

For you (a re-post... hope it meets your requirements, style-wise

):

Pre-Mill = "and He shall shepherd/rule [future tense] them [the nations] with a rod/sceptre of iron [righteousness and strength]..." Rev19:15b

--this is what *follows* His "RETURN" to the earth at that point in the chronology (i.e. "the kingdom of the heavens [on the earth], aka "the wedding feast/supper [on the earth]," aka "the age [singular] to come [on the earth]," etc)

--"nations" are located on the earth

... but, believe as you wish...

[for the readers: Lk12:36-37,38,40-42 "when he will return from the wedding"... THEN the meal (G347; see this also Matt8:11 and parallel, etc)]

[end of "re-post"

... underline for emphasis of the oft-overlooked phrases and passages

]

pottersclay · Nov 17, 2020

And this is my reason for the banning of replacement theology.

1. The church becomes Israel.
2. No pre trib....mid trib...only post trib.
3. No physical millennium on earth.

So now that I've rearranged scripture to prove my theory let me tell you the truth.
I'm not heartless, I'm not cruel, I'm very concerned.

Corban · Nov 17, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

I have joined the debate a litle late. Please forgive if I repeat things that have been said on it.

Your premise is what 1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 IS NOT. Perhaps we should examine it for what IT IS. Here is the immediate text.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;

13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

The first and important thing is Paul's (and thus the Holy Spirit's) appreciation for this Church. In Acts of the Apostles we see that Paul had three short weeks in Thessaloniki before he was forced to flee. But despite such a short visit, the Holy Spirit had worked mightely and Chapter 1 and Chapter 3 are glowing report not seen in any other Church in the New Testament, except maybe Philadelphia. But the short visit has its drawback. Paul could not school the new Church in all the doctrine that is important. So despite their state as a Church, they were short on teaching. From Paul's prayer in Chapter 5:23-24 Paul had no doubt taught the Rapture. The usage of the Greek word that we render "coming" in 5:23 is not wrong but can be misleading. The Greek word is "Parousia" which means PRESENCE. Paul is not praying about the COMING to EARTH by the Lord, but His PRESENCE in the clouds before he continues to earth. The Greek word for His ARRIVAL is "Erchomia". In Matthew 24:30 our Lord bursts out of the clouds to touch down on Mount Olives and is seen ARRIVING by all.

The problem of lack of teaching in Thessaloniki was not the Rapture. It was that in the months the after Paul lef, one or more of the believers had died. And the Thessalonian Church thought that if one was dead, one would miss the Rapture. The problem was that Paul, facing a Church in great persecution, had taught the Rapture, but had not taught enough on the RESURRECTION. 1st Thessalonians 4:13-14 shows the problem;

13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

The LIVING saints were SORROWING for the DEAD saints because they believed that they had missed the Rapture through death. So in verse 14, Paul says that BASED on the resurrection of JESUS, the dead saints will also be there in the sky. Zechariah 14:5 predicts that when Messiah comes the saints will be with Him, and Jude reports that Enoch, who was Raptured, also said so (Jude 1:14). Sp what Paul is telling the believers at Thessaloniki is that when the Lord comes from the clouds, He will not only "BRING WITH HIM" the LIVING saints who were Raptured bu the ones who were dead will be WITH HIM as well. The next verses tell how that is possible.

There is no rocket science involved in the Rapture. Enoch, Zechariah and John in Revelation 19 all predict our Lord coming from the sky with His Believers. To make this possible, the dead, who are in Hades, must RISE in resurrection, to the surface of the earth. There they pause while those who are alive, and who did not get a resurrection body, are CHANGED (1st Cor.15:51-55), and then TOGETHER ALL ARE RAPTURED. In the air, and because He is traveling, our Lord then judges His Church at the "BEMA" (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10). Then ALL return to earth with Him. Those Christians found WORTHY will join Christ for (i) the Battle of Armageddon, and (ii) the Wedding Feast (Rev.19). Those Christians NOT found worthy still return to earth with Christ, but have no part of the Lord's glorious military victory at Armageddon, NOR do they have part in the Wedding Feast (The Ten Virgins).

1st Thessalonians 4:13-18 is not complicated. It just explains HOW God has planned that ALL Believers can come back to earth with Christ as the prophets say. Rapture is a fact of the Bible since Enoch. A Pre-Tribulation Rapture is also a simple matter in the Bible. The problem comes with those Christians, who like the five foolish Virgins, think that everything is for free. Even Darby missed that.

Wall · Nov 17, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

I thought it was just me Truth7t7. I havent been able to follow any of his posts

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

What (about the following) is hard to grasp, from your perspective?

This is matter of CHRONOLOGY.

Many people do find that a difficult concept to grasp, in Scripture. Do not feel bad. You're not alone, in that.

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

Corban said:

I assume (could be mistaken) that you are equating "the five foolish Virgins" (or even all 10 of them) with "the Church which is His body" (aka, the "Bride/Wife [singular]," pertaining to "the MARRIAGE" itself--Rev19:7 [DISTINCT FROM the "plurals" in 19:9]).

If so, I disagree. "The 10 Virgins [and even "the five" who go in with Him to "the wedding feast/supper"] NEVER lift off the earth, but are present on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (see also Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "RETURN" [as well as Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"], among other passages re: this time-slot).

It is my contention (in past posts) that these [10 Virgins] "TAKE/TOOK LAMPS" [and "lamps lit"] in the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect of "the DOTL" time-period (the "DARK/DARKNESS" aspect, i.e. the 7-yr trib), that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture".

IOW, they ain't US.

If, however, you are just saying we [can be] LIKE them, say, in carelessness, then I agree this affects "reward" (and not "salvation status"), however, I do not believe this results in "Millennial exclusion" as the "Millennial Exclusion Theory" has it (with regard to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"... Often passages are mis-applied, which actually speak of the non-believers/unbelievers/faithless IN THE TRIB YRS, who will experience such

... However, Paul's wording in 1Th5:10 [same two Grk words in v.6!] negates such an outcome for members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," where he says, "who died for us THAT whether we may watch OR whether we may sleep [same two words/ideas as in v.6!! (NOT the same "sleep" word as in chpt 4, meaning "sleep-IN-DEATH," NO! )], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] Him" [a distinct "with" word from the one in Matt25:10, G3326 meaning "accompany" --re: "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [i.e. the earthly MK age, and pertaining to the "5 Virgins [PLURAL]" (NOT who He is coming TO MARRY!)]])

Wall · Nov 17, 2020

Truth7t7 said:

The 2nd coming= Last day= Day of the Lord

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

The 2nd coming= Last day= Day of the Lord

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

I agree 100%

The second coming,resurrection, day of the Lord, final judgement, last day, all the same event on the last day

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

Are you saying:

--that the BOLD ^ refers to a singular 24-hr day (what you are calling, the Day of Christ's 2nd Coming)?

--OR, that the bold occurs AFTER His Second Coming (Matt24:29-31), during a time period FOLLOWING His "Return"?

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

Me neither

I have been telling this poster in love for months, I dont read 50% of his postings, impossible

Chaos

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

pottersclay said:

That's correct A+

1. The Church Is the Israel of God, Roman's 9:6-8

2. The church will be caught up at the second coming, immediately after the tribulation Matt 24:29-30

3. There wont be a future Millennium, Jesus Christ returns in fire and Final judgement, dissolving this earth by fire, Luke 17:29-30, 2 Peter3:10-12

Corban · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Thank you for your response. I am the first to agree with you that up up until Revelation 19, the Bride is pointedly missing. I have a reason for this, but I'm not sure if I want to derail the thread. However, may I make an observation. In the Parable of the Virgins BOTH parties made a journey. The Virgins both RAISED UP and "WENT FORTH" to meet the Bridegroom. The Bridegroom also "COMES" twice, once in verse 6 and once in verse 10. I judge that in verse 6 is speaks of the Lord's COMING to meet the Virgins (in the clouds), and that in verse 10 He comes for the Wedding Feast On earth).

As to them "sleeping", I judge this to be physical death. The reason is that the questions that the Disciples asked the Lord in 24:3 - all to do with His coming and the end of the age. So you have those Christians through the centuries who have died, and those who are alive at His coming - because He delayed. Normally the number of God's people is 12. If we take the "TWO" in the filed and "TWO" at the mill - the living and active servants, and add them to all those who "slept", we get 12.

The matter of the Tribulation is moot for the Virgins because they are asleep, so it is not mentioned. But what is brought to the fore is that nearly all the problems with the Church start because the Lord delays His coming. The Parable of the ten Virgins is a second witness to this because a few verses earlier the faith servant turned bad because the Lord delayed His coming (24:44-51). Israel fall because Moses delayed on the mountain. Peter, when the Lord seemed to be gone, said "I go fishing" - and caught nothing.

Returning to the thread, the Tribulation is very much in view in 1st Thessalonians because, contrary to popular opinion, the saving work of Jesus Christ is PRIMARILY to save men from God's WRATH. We Christians are advised to bear with MEN'S wrath, but to believe in Jesus to AVOID God's wrath. "WRATH" appears in 13 verses in Revelation. 10 of them are God's WRATH. The PREMISE of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is not far wrong. It is in keeping with the saving work of Christ. But the PREMISE of God is that we Christians be found ABIDING IN HIM; not fraternizing with the world.

Wall · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

Nope

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

MARK 13 [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see that AFTER the great tribulation the sun is darkened and the moon.....

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

I, too, see two DISTINCT points in time (but not in the same way you see this, it seems).

--"[moon into blood] BEFORE the GREAT" refers to "before the GREAT tribulation [i.e. "GREAT"=second half; so BEFORE *THAT*]" aspect of the trib yrs (so, IN the FIRST HALF--This corresponds with the 6th Seal in Rev6 [EARLY-ish in the trib yrs!], which is also FOLLOWING "our Rapture," just as the FIRST SEAL is)

--"moon shall not give her light" is a distinct point in time (not the same as the "moon into blood" Joel2:31/Rev6:12/6th SEAL which is in the first HALF of trib); "moon shall not give her light" FOLLOWS AFTER the [entire] trib yrs, at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth

The STARTING point of "the DOTL" is way back at SEAL #1 (parallel with a number of other passages I've pointed out before), ALL FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (SEAL #1 et al... all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture" event)... "the Day of the Lord so cometh [ARRIVES] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the very lengthy DOTL in its ENTIRETY [which includes the MK age also]).

The phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" speak of the SAME TIME-PERIOD when used in close proximity / same contexts... (this holds true for these two occurrences of these two phrases in 2Th1-2 [chpts])

TheDivineWatermark · Nov 17, 2020

^ Well... anyway... most ppl I talk with at least agree that the "6th SEAL [events]" and "Christ's Second Coming [to the earth]" are further apart than, say, 2-weeks' time, or something similar.

['moon into blood'... 'moon shall not give her light'... completely distinct points in time, in the chronology]

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

I, too, see two DISTINCT points in time (but not in the same way you see this, it seems).

--"[moon into blood] BEFORE the GREAT" refers to "before the GREAT tribulation [i.e. "GREAT"=second half; so BEFORE *THAT*]" aspect of the trib yrs (so, IN the FIRST HALF--This corresponds with the 6th Seal in Rev6 [EARLY-ish in the trib yrs!], which is also FOLLOWING "our Rapture," just as the FIRST SEAL is)

--"moon shall not give her light" is a distinct point in time (not the same as the "moon into blood" Joel2:31/Rev6:12/6th SEAL which is in the first HALF of trib); "moon shall not give her light" FOLLOWS AFTER the [entire] trib yrs, at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth

The STARTING point of "the DOTL" is way back at SEAL #1 (parallel with a number of other passages I've pointed out before), ALL FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (SEAL #1 et al... all of this FOLLOWS "our Rapture" event)... "the Day of the Lord so cometh [ARRIVES] as a thief IN THE NIGHT" (the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect of the very lengthy DOTL in its ENTIRETY [which includes the MK age also]).

The phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" speak of the SAME TIME-PERIOD when used in close proximity / same contexts... (this holds true for these two occurrences of these two phrases in 2Th1-2 [chpts])

50% better, keep it up,tone it down

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

75% almost there, how long can you keep it toned down?

Truth7t7 · Nov 17, 2020

Wall said:

Revelation 16:12-17KJV
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Dino246 · Nov 17, 2020

TheDivineWatermark said:

^^^ Exactly. ^^^

I have addressed T7t7 several times regarding his misuse of brackets. He ignores correction, so his comments are utterly hypocritical.

Truth7t7 · Jan 29, 2021

Truth7t7 said:

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

There ya have it

Is 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 A Pre-Trib Rapture As Many Teach?

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