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I did notice that and that’s what got me to thinking that the resurrection has nothing to do with raising dead bodies but has to do with bringing from death to life. We are born dead in our sins and when we accept Christ, we are passed from death to life. The OT saints couldn’t be raised from death to life until Christ paid for their redemption.
I believe that some but not all of the OT saints rose up bodily and walked the streets of Jerusalem in judgement against Israel. And I base that idea on this:
Mat 12:42 (KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
The bodily resurrection of those saints did two things, one it concealed what the resurrection really is and it was a judgement against Israel.
I believe that some but not all of the OT saints rose up bodily and walked the streets of Jerusalem in judgement against Israel. And I base that idea on this:
Mat 12:42 (KJV) The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
The bodily resurrection of those saints did two things, one it concealed what the resurrection really is and it was a judgement against Israel.
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Yeah, my post was pretty loaded and requires an explanation that may help you understand where I'm coming from. I believe in a historicist view of prophecy; that Revelation has been progressively fulfilling itself throughout time since the Messiah ascended to heaven. I've shared this with others but not with you yet, I don't think...
Below I've focused on a few elements of your post to help try to make my case.
Is it plausible that the Great Tribulation (of Jacob) = The Time of the Gentiles = The Church Age?
Matthew 24 sets the beginning of the Great Tribulation, mentioning Daniel's abomination of desolation in Matt 24:15, which links us to Daniel 12:1 that describes this "time of trouble". So the Great Tribulation = the Time of (Jacob's) trouble that starts after the AOD.
At the beginning of Matthew 24 we're given a series of events by the Messiah that would occur before the Great Tribulation began, and they are:
1. False Gospel spreading
2. Wars & Rumors of wars
3. Famines
4. Pestilences
5. Persecution of His Apostles (he specifically says "you will be persecuted")
6. Abomination of desolation
Well in Revelation 6 the first 5 seals are described as:
1. White Horse (conquering)
2. Red Horse (peace removed)
3. Black Horse (scales measuring food)
4. Pale Horse (death)
5. Souls slain for their testimony
6. Wrath of the Lamb
The very same events that the Messiah predicted also match the very same seals He opens in heaven, in order. Now there are a few noteworthy elements to point out:
Revelation 6:11 says the fellow-servants of the slain souls must be killed as they were. Historically, the Apostles were indeed beheaded, crucified, exiled, stabbed, stoned, clubbed, and burned in the 1st century.
Luke 21 gives the same order of events as Matthew 24 prior to the desolation of the temple and then says...
Luke 21:20-23
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Revelation 6:15-16 says of the 6th seal...
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
This matches Luke 23:27-30 which matches Luke 21:23 saying...
And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Jerusalem is the target of the Lamb's wrath. And historically, Jerusalem was surrounded and utterly desolated in 70 AD. There's even testimony that women ate their babies because they were starving to death.
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Next, the 7th seal is opened but there is silence........nothing happens for a short time.......and just before that, we're told that the winds are held back from blowing while the 144,000 Israelites are marked. We're then told that a great multitude is seen coming out of great tribulation.
Matthew 24 says that after the AOD - which we now know is Jerusalem's destruction - the great tribulation begins and that if not for the elect, no flesh would be saved.
Luke 21:24 says after the desolation of Jerusalem there would be wrath on "this" people: being killed, taken captive, and being scattered to the nations "until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled".
Romans 11 then links this fall of Israelites, as well as the word "elect(ion)" and the phrase "fullness of Gentiles", explaining that the gentiles receive the opportunity for salvation because of Israel's fall.
Romans 11:5-7, 11-12, 15, 25 [brackets mine]
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead [i.e. the resurrection]?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Historically, after the 70AD destruction, there was a lull when Jews didn't suffer any serious persecution until 538AD when they began to be persecuted relentlessly through inquisitions, holy wars with the Holy Land caught in the middle, suffered exile and diaspora and other atrocities.
Meanwhile, as you say the gospel spread to the nations as the bible was reproduced through the advancement of the printing press. And as Christianity spread the Jews suffered as "murderers of Christ" for 1260 years (from 538 AD to 1798 AD). Then gentile believers (protestants) began to suffer persecution from Catholics for 1260 years (from 688 AD to 1948 AD).
This time also saw two world wars and the advent of the atomic bomb.
This is why I believe the Great Tribulation (of Jacob) = The Time of the Gentiles = The Church Age
Below I've focused on a few elements of your post to help try to make my case.
Is it plausible that the Great Tribulation (of Jacob) = The Time of the Gentiles = The Church Age?
Matthew 24 sets the beginning of the Great Tribulation, mentioning Daniel's abomination of desolation in Matt 24:15, which links us to Daniel 12:1 that describes this "time of trouble". So the Great Tribulation = the Time of (Jacob's) trouble that starts after the AOD.
At the beginning of Matthew 24 we're given a series of events by the Messiah that would occur before the Great Tribulation began, and they are:
1. False Gospel spreading
2. Wars & Rumors of wars
3. Famines
4. Pestilences
5. Persecution of His Apostles (he specifically says "you will be persecuted")
6. Abomination of desolation
Well in Revelation 6 the first 5 seals are described as:
1. White Horse (conquering)
2. Red Horse (peace removed)
3. Black Horse (scales measuring food)
4. Pale Horse (death)
5. Souls slain for their testimony
6. Wrath of the Lamb
The very same events that the Messiah predicted also match the very same seals He opens in heaven, in order. Now there are a few noteworthy elements to point out:
a) Persecution of Messiah's Apostles = The souls slain of the 5th seal
Revelation 6:11 says the fellow-servants of the slain souls must be killed as they were. Historically, the Apostles were indeed beheaded, crucified, exiled, stabbed, stoned, clubbed, and burned in the 1st century.
b) The Abomination of desolation = The 6th seal Wrath of the Lamb = The 70AD destruction of Jerusalem
Luke 21 gives the same order of events as Matthew 24 prior to the desolation of the temple and then says...
Luke 21:20-23
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Revelation 6:15-16 says of the 6th seal...
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
This matches Luke 23:27-30 which matches Luke 21:23 saying...
And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Jerusalem is the target of the Lamb's wrath. And historically, Jerusalem was surrounded and utterly desolated in 70 AD. There's even testimony that women ate their babies because they were starving to death.
----
Next, the 7th seal is opened but there is silence........nothing happens for a short time.......and just before that, we're told that the winds are held back from blowing while the 144,000 Israelites are marked. We're then told that a great multitude is seen coming out of great tribulation.
Matthew 24 says that after the AOD - which we now know is Jerusalem's destruction - the great tribulation begins and that if not for the elect, no flesh would be saved.
Luke 21:24 says after the desolation of Jerusalem there would be wrath on "this" people: being killed, taken captive, and being scattered to the nations "until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled".
Romans 11 then links this fall of Israelites, as well as the word "elect(ion)" and the phrase "fullness of Gentiles", explaining that the gentiles receive the opportunity for salvation because of Israel's fall.
Romans 11:5-7, 11-12, 15, 25 [brackets mine]
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant [of Israel] according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead [i.e. the resurrection]?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Historically, after the 70AD destruction, there was a lull when Jews didn't suffer any serious persecution until 538AD when they began to be persecuted relentlessly through inquisitions, holy wars with the Holy Land caught in the middle, suffered exile and diaspora and other atrocities.
Meanwhile, as you say the gospel spread to the nations as the bible was reproduced through the advancement of the printing press. And as Christianity spread the Jews suffered as "murderers of Christ" for 1260 years (from 538 AD to 1798 AD). Then gentile believers (protestants) began to suffer persecution from Catholics for 1260 years (from 688 AD to 1948 AD).
This time also saw two world wars and the advent of the atomic bomb.
This is why I believe the Great Tribulation (of Jacob) = The Time of the Gentiles = The Church Age
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Well, the ritual of "the day of firstfruit" describes the high priest gathering the first bushel of barley of the new harvest from the earth, baking unleavened cakes with it, and then offering it to the Almighty where it is either fully consumed or whatever's left placed on the altar and burned to allow its smoke specifically to ascend to heaven.
The Messiah is the fulfillment of the High Priest, and so on the day of firstfruits, He was to present an unleavened offering of the earth to the Father that was to ascend to heaven. The souls who were raised to life when He raised was this firstfruit offering. This is why the Messiah couldn't be touched by Mary, not until he finished the ritual. Later he returned and allowed people (like Thomas) to touch him.
I believe all the righteous will be raised when Daniel 12:2 is fulfilled in the future, I just think that's at the mass resurrection event just before the millennium. Those raised with the Messiah were the firstfruits offering He was to give to the Father as High Priest on the Day of firstfruits.
It was like a guarantee of the future harvest He's been working to bring to the Father.
The Messiah is the fulfillment of the High Priest, and so on the day of firstfruits, He was to present an unleavened offering of the earth to the Father that was to ascend to heaven. The souls who were raised to life when He raised was this firstfruit offering. This is why the Messiah couldn't be touched by Mary, not until he finished the ritual. Later he returned and allowed people (like Thomas) to touch him.
I believe all the righteous will be raised when Daniel 12:2 is fulfilled in the future, I just think that's at the mass resurrection event just before the millennium. Those raised with the Messiah were the firstfruits offering He was to give to the Father as High Priest on the Day of firstfruits.
It was like a guarantee of the future harvest He's been working to bring to the Father.
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"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.
Those at His coming, is referring to the church. We're next. There has been no one in between who has been raised immortal and glorified.
No one was raised immortal and glorified with the Messiah. As I said, those people who came out of the tombs died again, as did Lazarus. Jesus alone rose immortal and glorified. To be clear, no human being has yet received his immortal and glorified body. That will take place when the Lord appears and resurrects the dead and changes the living where we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
The first resurrection has stages to it:
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing (dead and living)
* The two witnesses
* OT saints of Israel (not sure where to place them)
* The great tribulation saints
Once again, if you have the church resurrecting after the tribulation and just before the millennium, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already suffered it.
The time of God's wrath is an event that was prophesied by both OT saints and the apostles known as the Day of the Lord. It will be an unprecedented time of wrath unequaled from the beginning, till now and never to be equaled again and will affect the whole world. It is not the same as the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him. It will be God's direct wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:13-18, will take place prior to God's wrath which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. Otherwise you would have God punishing the righteous with the wicked.
Those at His coming, is referring to the church. We're next. There has been no one in between who has been raised immortal and glorified.
No one was raised immortal and glorified with the Messiah. As I said, those people who came out of the tombs died again, as did Lazarus. Jesus alone rose immortal and glorified. To be clear, no human being has yet received his immortal and glorified body. That will take place when the Lord appears and resurrects the dead and changes the living where we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
The first resurrection has stages to it:
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing (dead and living)
* The two witnesses
* OT saints of Israel (not sure where to place them)
* The great tribulation saints
Once again, if you have the church resurrecting after the tribulation and just before the millennium, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God, which we are not appointed to suffer and that because Jesus already suffered it.
The time of God's wrath is an event that was prophesied by both OT saints and the apostles known as the Day of the Lord. It will be an unprecedented time of wrath unequaled from the beginning, till now and never to be equaled again and will affect the whole world. It is not the same as the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have because of our faith in Him. It will be God's direct wrath being poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore, the Lord's promise in John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:13-18, will take place prior to God's wrath which is initiated by the opening of the first seal. Otherwise you would have God punishing the righteous with the wicked.
I hear you. At first it would seem that there are two types, or standards of "salvation". But is the Rapture anything to do with one's salvation? To answer this we have to define "salvation". The general definition of salvation is to be exempted, or removed, from a situation of dire suffering. In the case of a Christian this applies to several things.
It is a REWARD for a race run. Salvation is mostly passive - done by another - a GIFT. But a PRIZE is something YOU EARNED. A man is swift on his feet. That is his natural talent. But then he lays aside drinking, partying and sleeping late and trains and trains. His friends laugh, and others think he is mad to forego enjoyment. But then the man is invited to the Olympic Team for his country. He is, in essence, no different to his friends, but now he has REWARD and HONOR. So it is with the pre-Tribulation Rapture. The five points above are valid for all Christians, but some pay a price that others do not. This price is NOT for one of the five points above. It is a REWARD due because he sweated for it and went without for it.
But let us settle it forever. Matthew 13:39 says that the end of the age is a harvest, and that the angels are the reapers. This automatically opens two avenues of study. (i) According to Romans 1, nature shows the things of God, and (ii) we have the Bible to show us the harvest, especially in Leviticus Chapter 23. We have a double witness, approved by God, of how the end of the age will be - that is, a harvest. And both in nature and in the Bible, the harvest - though ONE Harvest, has THREE gatherings; (i) The firstfruits, then a little while later (ii) the general harvest, and what it left then is (iii) the gleanings - to be gathered for the poor and weak. It is at once clear who the firstfruits are - those who lived on the fringes and suffered more heat and dryness than the comfortable center. That is, there will be a harvest of Christians. SOME are ripe before others. Being ripe first has nothing to do with the seed, the crop, the nature of the grain and its ultimate end. Those who are first ripe are exactly the same as those who are ripe later - except they suffered more heat and dryness than the rest.
The Rapture does not ad dor subtract from one's salvation. It is a REWARD for walking through the added heat with the Master. The Rapture does not create a two-class system of salvation. It is simply a mechanism to transport men. And if the transport is from one place, and you want to be somewhere else, that is not a change of status before God. It is was because you chose it.
- God has a right to retribution for the way man has offended him. Man must be "saved" from a just retribution that ends in the Lake of Fire
- But man was designed as a Vessel. A vessel is made contain something. The tripartite man is a Temple, and his innermost sanctuary, the human spirit, was designed to host God. So the human spirit needs God to dwell in it. If not, the man is useless for the intended purpose and suffers loss (Jn.3:6; 1st Cor.6:17)
- The soul of man, his thinking, feeling and deciding organs, are badly corrupted by his flesh (Gen.6:5). Man's soul needs to be transformed into soul like Christ's (Rom.8:29; 2nd Cor.3:18)
- The body of man is corrupt to the uttermost. It's logical end is death. It needs salvation from the pangs of death. It needs resurrection. And this resurrection must be a release from the corrupt and an ushering in of incorruption
- Finally, man was made to subdue and rule this earth and its immediate environs (Gen.1:26-28). If he does not end up doing that, he is useless for the intended purpose and suffers a loss.
It is a REWARD for a race run. Salvation is mostly passive - done by another - a GIFT. But a PRIZE is something YOU EARNED. A man is swift on his feet. That is his natural talent. But then he lays aside drinking, partying and sleeping late and trains and trains. His friends laugh, and others think he is mad to forego enjoyment. But then the man is invited to the Olympic Team for his country. He is, in essence, no different to his friends, but now he has REWARD and HONOR. So it is with the pre-Tribulation Rapture. The five points above are valid for all Christians, but some pay a price that others do not. This price is NOT for one of the five points above. It is a REWARD due because he sweated for it and went without for it.
But let us settle it forever. Matthew 13:39 says that the end of the age is a harvest, and that the angels are the reapers. This automatically opens two avenues of study. (i) According to Romans 1, nature shows the things of God, and (ii) we have the Bible to show us the harvest, especially in Leviticus Chapter 23. We have a double witness, approved by God, of how the end of the age will be - that is, a harvest. And both in nature and in the Bible, the harvest - though ONE Harvest, has THREE gatherings; (i) The firstfruits, then a little while later (ii) the general harvest, and what it left then is (iii) the gleanings - to be gathered for the poor and weak. It is at once clear who the firstfruits are - those who lived on the fringes and suffered more heat and dryness than the comfortable center. That is, there will be a harvest of Christians. SOME are ripe before others. Being ripe first has nothing to do with the seed, the crop, the nature of the grain and its ultimate end. Those who are first ripe are exactly the same as those who are ripe later - except they suffered more heat and dryness than the rest.
The Rapture does not ad dor subtract from one's salvation. It is a REWARD for walking through the added heat with the Master. The Rapture does not create a two-class system of salvation. It is simply a mechanism to transport men. And if the transport is from one place, and you want to be somewhere else, that is not a change of status before God. It is was because you chose it.
B
Why does Jesus say after the tribulation of those days he will come and gather his people? And why does revelation say that the mass of people are those who came out of the tribulation?
This pretrib rapture thing has Jesus making several trips back to earth, and makes Jesus into a liar and a false prophet.
This pretrib rapture thing has Jesus making several trips back to earth, and makes Jesus into a liar and a false prophet.
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How in the world could you possibly leave out the heart and purpose of the gathering????
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
TO HEAVEN
FOR THE WEDDING/ WEDDING SUPPER.
leave that out/leave out the pretrib rapture verses (as you demonstrate) ....and pooooof!
Postrib rapture "works" in your own circles.
The rapture is the gathering of the bride.
TO HEAVEN
FOR THE WEDDING/ WEDDING SUPPER.
leave that out/leave out the pretrib rapture verses (as you demonstrate) ....and pooooof!
Postrib rapture "works" in your own circles.
Unpacking and studying verses is your friend,not to be despised.
If you will acknowledge them,you do well.
Look at all the impossibilities.
1) you have Jesus resurrecting the dead in Christ AFTER the living that are gathered in rev 14 DURING THE GT.....impossible.
2) You have Jesus ascending in acts as warrior, killing people,with millions of saints accompanying him,and all on horses....that is your re framing of Jesus ascention. (Beyond weird)....and impossible
3)If the saints are raptured to intercept Jesus's DECENTION to earth,they never see heaven,or become the wife IN HEAVEN....another impossibility.
4) You have the virgin parable in a war setting with the groom coming for the bride as a warrior killing millions of his enemies,on a white horse,with the bride never marrying but RETURNING TO HER ORIGINAL LOCATION!!!
(YOU can not destroy the virgin parable for the sake of your conjecture while feebly ascribing us as liars)
Yes another impossible reframe job of postribs.
Your deal is impossible.
If you will acknowledge them,you do well.
Look at all the impossibilities.
1) you have Jesus resurrecting the dead in Christ AFTER the living that are gathered in rev 14 DURING THE GT.....impossible.
2) You have Jesus ascending in acts as warrior, killing people,with millions of saints accompanying him,and all on horses....that is your re framing of Jesus ascention. (Beyond weird)....and impossible
3)If the saints are raptured to intercept Jesus's DECENTION to earth,they never see heaven,or become the wife IN HEAVEN....another impossibility.
4) You have the virgin parable in a war setting with the groom coming for the bride as a warrior killing millions of his enemies,on a white horse,with the bride never marrying but RETURNING TO HER ORIGINAL LOCATION!!!
(YOU can not destroy the virgin parable for the sake of your conjecture while feebly ascribing us as liars)
Yes another impossible reframe job of postribs.
Your deal is impossible.
I meant to put this in my last post to you but forgot...
I don't believe the great tribulation is the wrath of the Almighty. For an explanation why please see my longer post above...
https://christianchat.com/bookmarks/confirm?content_type=post&content_id=4425610
I believe it (the GT) starts off as the "wrath of the lamb" against the Jews for rejecting him (i.e. 70AD destruction), and then continues as satan's persecution of Jew and gentile believers for 1260 years respectively...the same persecution that's happened nestled within the last 2000 years for followers of the Messiah.
...and because they've been persecuted by satan's beast kingdom & citizens (which I believe has been here), the wrath of the Almighty falls on this kingdom and its citizens. But final wrath doesn't fall until the full number of gentile believers (i.e. "fullness of the gentiles") comes in and all believers (Jew & Gentile) are gathered.
I believe we who are alive today were blessed to be born after the time of great tribulation and are now at the cusp of our gathering to Him before final wrath falls.
I don't believe the great tribulation is the wrath of the Almighty. For an explanation why please see my longer post above...
https://christianchat.com/bookmarks/confirm?content_type=post&content_id=4425610
I believe it (the GT) starts off as the "wrath of the lamb" against the Jews for rejecting him (i.e. 70AD destruction), and then continues as satan's persecution of Jew and gentile believers for 1260 years respectively...the same persecution that's happened nestled within the last 2000 years for followers of the Messiah.
...and because they've been persecuted by satan's beast kingdom & citizens (which I believe has been here), the wrath of the Almighty falls on this kingdom and its citizens. But final wrath doesn't fall until the full number of gentile believers (i.e. "fullness of the gentiles") comes in and all believers (Jew & Gentile) are gathered.
I believe we who are alive today were blessed to be born after the time of great tribulation and are now at the cusp of our gathering to Him before final wrath falls.
Why would it concern me, we all know that the house of God is the body of Christ. If anyone can come up with other scripture that describes ANOTHER house of God with many mansions, that wasn't built until Christ was crucified, I will consider it.
Remember, the Jews that sat under the teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees had absolutely no understanding of scripture. So much so that when Jesus quoted Psalms on the cross, they thought he was calling out for Elijah.
Remember, the Jews that sat under the teachings of the Scribes and Pharisees had absolutely no understanding of scripture. So much so that when Jesus quoted Psalms on the cross, they thought he was calling out for Elijah.
I see your reasoning. And certain things we see in common. I also don't think I'll be able to change your view. But here is my view.
The Church is not revealed to the prophets of old. That does not mean that there are no shadows and types of it - like Eve, but, there is nothing that predicts it or describes it. Israel's prophets prophesied about Israel and the nations that had to do with them.
Our Lord Jesus is as intimately bound with Israel as He is with the Church. But in totally different aspects. The only common thing is that He, as the Lamb, puts away all sins ever committed. So He is both Redeemer and Atonement for BOTH Israel and the Church. But the differences are glaring otherwise. Example: Jesus is KING of the Jews, but HEAD of the Church. God is husband to Israel, Jesus is husband of the Church. Jesus is Emmanuel to Israel, meaning "God WITH us", but Jesus is IN the Church. Now Israel have the Covenant of Law made with Moses on Sinai. And in this Covenant, BOTH parties had duties. There were also PENALTIES if Israel broke this Covenant. They scattered throughout the Old Testament, but concentrated and summarized in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.
The last, and most grievous chastisement predicted on Israel is that they would (i) be scattered among all nations, (ii) serve foreign gods, and (iii) undergo continuous persecution by these nations. This came to fulfillment on three distinct occasions. Around 720 BC Assyria defeated and deported the TEN northern Tribes of Israel. They never returned and to day, as predcited by the prophets, are scattered throughout "every nation under the sun". Around 600 BC Babylon defeated and deported the TWO southern Tribes. Of these, 2.5% retunred to build the second Temple and their offspring were around in Judah for the arrival of our Lord Jesus. In 70 AD this remnant of Israel was defeated and deported and scattered by Rome.
Hosea, like the other prophets, predicted a time of chastisement among the Gentiles, but gives the time of this chastisement as "two days" (6:2), and a recovery of the Nation IN the third day. To this, Acts.15:14-16 agrees. That is, the Church must be complete before Israel are recovered. If we interpret scripture with scripture (for private interpretation is not allowed - 2nd Pet.1:20), we have no choice than to look at history and give the TIME of Hosea's "DAY" as 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet 3:8). This chastisement is NOT Jacob's Trouble. It is the fulfillment of the terms of the Covenant of Law. Jacob's Trouble is NOT connected with the SCATTERING of Israel, but the GATHERING of Israel under David again (Jer.30:3-10).
What happened to Israel since Assyria ripped them out of their Land is the penalties of their Contract (Covenant). What heppens to Israel in Jacob's Trouble is because they accept a Gentile king and worship him as their god at the end of the Church age. The end of the Church age is the starter signal for the restoration of Israel.
Now, we have to decide if the Book of Revelation has to do with the Church age, OR if it has to do PRIMARILY with events around the REVEALING of Jesus from the sky. The Book derives its name for the Greek word "Apokalypsis", which means, "THE REVEALING". It could be said that the first three Chapters are historical, and I can accept that. But TWO THINGS modify the rest of the book.
The Church is not revealed to the prophets of old. That does not mean that there are no shadows and types of it - like Eve, but, there is nothing that predicts it or describes it. Israel's prophets prophesied about Israel and the nations that had to do with them.
Our Lord Jesus is as intimately bound with Israel as He is with the Church. But in totally different aspects. The only common thing is that He, as the Lamb, puts away all sins ever committed. So He is both Redeemer and Atonement for BOTH Israel and the Church. But the differences are glaring otherwise. Example: Jesus is KING of the Jews, but HEAD of the Church. God is husband to Israel, Jesus is husband of the Church. Jesus is Emmanuel to Israel, meaning "God WITH us", but Jesus is IN the Church. Now Israel have the Covenant of Law made with Moses on Sinai. And in this Covenant, BOTH parties had duties. There were also PENALTIES if Israel broke this Covenant. They scattered throughout the Old Testament, but concentrated and summarized in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.
The last, and most grievous chastisement predicted on Israel is that they would (i) be scattered among all nations, (ii) serve foreign gods, and (iii) undergo continuous persecution by these nations. This came to fulfillment on three distinct occasions. Around 720 BC Assyria defeated and deported the TEN northern Tribes of Israel. They never returned and to day, as predcited by the prophets, are scattered throughout "every nation under the sun". Around 600 BC Babylon defeated and deported the TWO southern Tribes. Of these, 2.5% retunred to build the second Temple and their offspring were around in Judah for the arrival of our Lord Jesus. In 70 AD this remnant of Israel was defeated and deported and scattered by Rome.
Hosea, like the other prophets, predicted a time of chastisement among the Gentiles, but gives the time of this chastisement as "two days" (6:2), and a recovery of the Nation IN the third day. To this, Acts.15:14-16 agrees. That is, the Church must be complete before Israel are recovered. If we interpret scripture with scripture (for private interpretation is not allowed - 2nd Pet.1:20), we have no choice than to look at history and give the TIME of Hosea's "DAY" as 1,000 years (Ps.90:4, 2nd Pet 3:8). This chastisement is NOT Jacob's Trouble. It is the fulfillment of the terms of the Covenant of Law. Jacob's Trouble is NOT connected with the SCATTERING of Israel, but the GATHERING of Israel under David again (Jer.30:3-10).
What happened to Israel since Assyria ripped them out of their Land is the penalties of their Contract (Covenant). What heppens to Israel in Jacob's Trouble is because they accept a Gentile king and worship him as their god at the end of the Church age. The end of the Church age is the starter signal for the restoration of Israel.
Now, we have to decide if the Book of Revelation has to do with the Church age, OR if it has to do PRIMARILY with events around the REVEALING of Jesus from the sky. The Book derives its name for the Greek word "Apokalypsis", which means, "THE REVEALING". It could be said that the first three Chapters are historical, and I can accept that. But TWO THINGS modify the rest of the book.
- To the last four of the seven Churches of Revelation 2 and 3, our Lord promises His second coming. That is, Chapters 2 and 3 might be historical, but they end with the Second Coming
- Chapter 4 starts with "THINGS AFTER THIS". If we remove the Chapter and verse divisions (as they were not in the original texts), then Chapter 4 is a CONTINUATION of Chapter 3 and shows THINGS AFTER the second coming of Jesus FOR THE CHURCHES. That is, the rest of the events of Revelation are POST RAPTURE. And truly, to confirm this, the Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3. "Saints" .... yes, but "Church" ... NO!
I left it out because that was not the subject of the thread. The Marriage Feast is not subject to the TIMING of the Rapture.
But if we examine the two parables of the Marriage Feast, Matthew 22 and Matthew 25, what scripture do you give for the Wedding Feast IN HEAVEN. Is not the contrary the case? The five wise Virgins "bought" oil for their vessels. When did they do it? BEFORE THEY FELL ASLEEP. That is, IN THEIR LIFETIMES. Then the cry goes out "The Bridegroom COMETH!" From where does He COME? Heaven of course. So the meeting of the Bridegroom and the Virgins CANNOT be in heaven. The Bridegroom IS COME!
Then, when the five foolish Virgins are found short of oil, they are told to "buy from those that sell". If the five wise Virgins bought during their lifetimes, then "those that sell" MUST BE ON EARTH. But this is not all.
The five foolish Virgins return to try to enter the Marriage Feast but are refused. If it was in heaven then they would have to have a second journey to heaven - which is not said, nor found anywhere in scripture. But this is not all.
The Parable starts with "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE ... ." That is, the Parable is about the Kingdom, NOT "IN" heaven, but the "Kingdom (out) "OF" Heaven. God's Kingdom is set up on EARTH by the COMING of the BRIDEGROOM. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Daniel, through the prophets of the Old Testament, through the prophesies of the New, the KINGDOM is set up ON EARTH. It is;
"Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in heaven"
The Marriage Feast is LIKE the Kingdom - ON EARTH. And if so IT NEEDS NO RAPTURE!
Finally, if you produce Revelation 19 as proof, then I can only say that, YES, the Wedding Guests are raptured, and the Wedding Guests have the right Garment. But there is no talk of the Wedding Feast ACCOMPLISHED. The very next thing is they depart on white horses to FIGHT - not Feast. If the Wedding Feast is LIKE the Kingdom, then Armageddon must FIRST be won, and then only comes the Wedding. The Kingdom must be established if the Wedding Feast is to be feasted. There is no scripture that says the Wedding Feast is ACCOMPLISHED in Revelation 19.
But if we examine the two parables of the Marriage Feast, Matthew 22 and Matthew 25, what scripture do you give for the Wedding Feast IN HEAVEN. Is not the contrary the case? The five wise Virgins "bought" oil for their vessels. When did they do it? BEFORE THEY FELL ASLEEP. That is, IN THEIR LIFETIMES. Then the cry goes out "The Bridegroom COMETH!" From where does He COME? Heaven of course. So the meeting of the Bridegroom and the Virgins CANNOT be in heaven. The Bridegroom IS COME!
Then, when the five foolish Virgins are found short of oil, they are told to "buy from those that sell". If the five wise Virgins bought during their lifetimes, then "those that sell" MUST BE ON EARTH. But this is not all.
The five foolish Virgins return to try to enter the Marriage Feast but are refused. If it was in heaven then they would have to have a second journey to heaven - which is not said, nor found anywhere in scripture. But this is not all.
The Parable starts with "The KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS LIKE ... ." That is, the Parable is about the Kingdom, NOT "IN" heaven, but the "Kingdom (out) "OF" Heaven. God's Kingdom is set up on EARTH by the COMING of the BRIDEGROOM. From Genesis 1:26-28, through Daniel, through the prophets of the Old Testament, through the prophesies of the New, the KINGDOM is set up ON EARTH. It is;
"Thy (God's) Kingdom COME (to earth), Thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in heaven"
The Marriage Feast is LIKE the Kingdom - ON EARTH. And if so IT NEEDS NO RAPTURE!
Finally, if you produce Revelation 19 as proof, then I can only say that, YES, the Wedding Guests are raptured, and the Wedding Guests have the right Garment. But there is no talk of the Wedding Feast ACCOMPLISHED. The very next thing is they depart on white horses to FIGHT - not Feast. If the Wedding Feast is LIKE the Kingdom, then Armageddon must FIRST be won, and then only comes the Wedding. The Kingdom must be established if the Wedding Feast is to be feasted. There is no scripture that says the Wedding Feast is ACCOMPLISHED in Revelation 19.
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