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I'm saying that Amos 9:11-15 parallels what is being told in Acts 15:13-18 -
13 When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return and rebuild
the fallen tent of David.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things
18 that have been known for ages.’b
...are you seeing the SEQUENCE? (this isn't saying that all will be concluded in 32ad, which this passage was written/spoken some time after... Again, recall what I pointed out about the 70ad events [see also Matt22:7 / Lk19:41-44] spelled out in Luke 21:24 "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which are two very lengthy / of-MUCH-duration items!
]; IOW, the thing you are pointing out [taken from one, and given to the other] HAS NOT YET HAPPENED... and what intervenes is what is spelled out in v.14 above ^ i.e. the "NOW" stuff! ['this present age [singular]'!])
13 When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return and rebuild
the fallen tent of David.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things
18 that have been known for ages.’b
...are you seeing the SEQUENCE? (this isn't saying that all will be concluded in 32ad, which this passage was written/spoken some time after... Again, recall what I pointed out about the 70ad events [see also Matt22:7 / Lk19:41-44] spelled out in Luke 21:24 "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which are two very lengthy / of-MUCH-duration items!
]; IOW, the thing you are pointing out [taken from one, and given to the other] HAS NOT YET HAPPENED... and what intervenes is what is spelled out in v.14 above ^ i.e. the "NOW" stuff! ['this present age [singular]'!])-
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I'm saying that Amos 9:11-15 parallels what is being told in Acts 15:13-18 -
13 When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return and rebuild
the fallen tent of David.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things
18 that have been known for ages.’b
...are you seeing the SEQUENCE? (this isn't saying that all will be concluded in 32ad, which this passage was written/spoken some time after... Again, recall what I pointed out about the 70ad events [see also Matt22:7 / Lk19:41-44] spelled out in Luke 21:24 "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which are two very lengthy / of-MUCH-duration items! ]; IOW, the thing you are pointing out [taken from one, and given to the other] HAS NOT YET HAPPENED... and what intervenes is what is spelled out in v.14 above ^ i.e. the "NOW" stuff! ['this present age [singular]'!])
13 When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! 14 Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 ‘After this I will return and rebuild
the fallen tent of David.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 so that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things
18 that have been known for ages.’b
...are you seeing the SEQUENCE? (this isn't saying that all will be concluded in 32ad, which this passage was written/spoken some time after... Again, recall what I pointed out about the 70ad events [see also Matt22:7 / Lk19:41-44] spelled out in Luke 21:24 "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which are two very lengthy / of-MUCH-duration items!
]; IOW, the thing you are pointing out [taken from one, and given to the other] HAS NOT YET HAPPENED... and what intervenes is what is spelled out in v.14 above ^ i.e. the "NOW" stuff! ['this present age [singular]'!])
Paul delivered Hymenaeus and Philetus to Satan for execution because they taught wrong doctrine (destructive heresy) on the Second Coming of Christ thus overthrowing the faith of some Christians. 1Tim 1v20, 2Tim2v16-18.
Do you think the Lord will think any differently about the person who teaches a pre-tribulation advent and rapture (that isn't in the Scriptures) and when it doesn't come to pass and those Christians whom it was taught to, backslide and go into apostasy? Matt 24v45-25v13.
By adding a pre-tribulation advent and rapture (that isn't there), you will answer for this before the Lord Jesus. Rev 22v18,19, 2Cor 5v10 James 3v1.
Their error was the same error that most Christian teach today. They believed the resurrection was the raising of dead earthly bodies and they believed the resurrection had already come and gone.
2Ti 2:18 (KJV) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
2Ti 2:18 (KJV) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
I'm afraid Acts 2 says what it says, or Peter is liar. David is still (i) in a tomb, and (ii) his SOUL in Hades.
In Ephesians 4 you have taken words that do not say the SOULS of dead Christians go to heaven. Consider this:
In ca. 720 BC Assyria took the ten northern Tribes of Israel CAPTIVE. About a hundred years later, Babylon defeated Assyria. The ten northern Tribes went NOWHERE, but their CAPTOR was now Babylon. Captivity had been take CAPTIVE but the Captive went nowhere. In ca, 600 BC Babylon took CAPTIVE the two remaining Tribes of Israel. 70 years later Cyrus of Persia defeated Babylon. The CAPTIVES where no longer captives of Babylon but were CAPTIVES of the Medo-Persians. But the CAPTIVES themselves WENT NOWHERE. Cyrus let them free, but 97.5% of then decided to stay in CAPTIVITY. Again, CAPTIVITY was led CAPTIVE, but the CAPTIVES went nowhere.
Not only do the words "Led Captivity Captive" NOT indicate leaving Hades, BUT they CONFIRM that the CAPTIVES WENT NOWHERE.
Finally, our Lord did not preach to any SPIRITS in prison. First, the spirit of a man who has died goes UP to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). It is the SOUL of man that goes to Hades. But angels are SPIRITS and the only prison for angels is Tartaroo - a Prison for angels who mated with woman (2nd Pet.2:4; Jude 1:6). Secondly The context of 1st Peter 3:18-20 is not what Jesus did. The Context, and the grammar, is what the Holy Spirit did.
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which (SPIRIT) also he (NOAH) went and preached unto the spirits (NOW) in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I have not added to scripture. The words in brackets are IMPLIED by the context and the grammar). The Holy Spirit, inspiring Noah, preached to the spirits (angels), who refused the warning, and are NOW in Prison - is the sense of the sentence.
In Ephesians 4 you have taken words that do not say the SOULS of dead Christians go to heaven. Consider this:
- There is no record of a dead man ever going to heaven in the whole Bible - only live men
- Dead men are unclean - how could they appear before God in heaven?
- Dead men are naked - how can they appear naked before God?
- Hades means "unseen" - the exact place to put men so that God does NOT have to look upon them
- Death is God's mortal enemy - how would he host and entertain death in heaven?
In ca. 720 BC Assyria took the ten northern Tribes of Israel CAPTIVE. About a hundred years later, Babylon defeated Assyria. The ten northern Tribes went NOWHERE, but their CAPTOR was now Babylon. Captivity had been take CAPTIVE but the Captive went nowhere. In ca, 600 BC Babylon took CAPTIVE the two remaining Tribes of Israel. 70 years later Cyrus of Persia defeated Babylon. The CAPTIVES where no longer captives of Babylon but were CAPTIVES of the Medo-Persians. But the CAPTIVES themselves WENT NOWHERE. Cyrus let them free, but 97.5% of then decided to stay in CAPTIVITY. Again, CAPTIVITY was led CAPTIVE, but the CAPTIVES went nowhere.
Not only do the words "Led Captivity Captive" NOT indicate leaving Hades, BUT they CONFIRM that the CAPTIVES WENT NOWHERE.
Finally, our Lord did not preach to any SPIRITS in prison. First, the spirit of a man who has died goes UP to God (Eccl.3:21, 12:7). It is the SOUL of man that goes to Hades. But angels are SPIRITS and the only prison for angels is Tartaroo - a Prison for angels who mated with woman (2nd Pet.2:4; Jude 1:6). Secondly The context of 1st Peter 3:18-20 is not what Jesus did. The Context, and the grammar, is what the Holy Spirit did.
18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which (SPIRIT) also he (NOAH) went and preached unto the spirits (NOW) in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."
I have not added to scripture. The words in brackets are IMPLIED by the context and the grammar). The Holy Spirit, inspiring Noah, preached to the spirits (angels), who refused the warning, and are NOW in Prison - is the sense of the sentence.
How can David's soul be in Hades, when the Bible makes it clear that it is not?
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect...
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us... But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 11 & 12)
David's spirit is among "the spirits of just men made perfect" and dwelling in the New Jerusalem. One would think that every Christian knows that Hades is reserved for the unredeemed, the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. But evidently you do not. Which is a cryin' shame.
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions... And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect...
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us... But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 11 & 12)
David's spirit is among "the spirits of just men made perfect" and dwelling in the New Jerusalem. One would think that every Christian knows that Hades is reserved for the unredeemed, the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked. But evidently you do not. Which is a cryin' shame.
jb, you keep quoting this passage, but you are not grasping that the CONTEXT of everything in Matthew 24+ [forward--> (in His Olivet Discourse section--both chpts)] is speaking of what takes place FOLLOWING our Rapture/Departure... Jesus is not covering the Subject of "Rapture" at all, here, but all about what leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, that will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth. Now, there's much more I could say about WHY "the evil servant" says what he says IN THAT TIME-PERIOD (FOLLOWING our Rapture), but I'd like you to, first, simply consider the PARALLEL PASSAGE to this Matt24:45-51 section (about the "faithful and wise" and "evil" servants):
Note the parallel passages (for aid in discerning context/setting, etc):
--Matthew 24:48 - "But if that evil servant should say in his heart, 'My master delays,'"
--Luke 12:45 - "But if that servant should say in his heart, 'My master delays to come,' and should begin to beat the men-servants and the maid-servants, and to eat and to drink and to get drunk"
[but notice... the CONTEXT of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom [see Rev19:7,9])... THEN the meal [G347] (i.e. the earthly MK age)--IOW, this is a Second Coming to the earth passage (so preceding and LEADING UP TO *THAT*), NOT a Rapture passage...]
...so then (in view of that--that this is His "RETURN" to the earth passage, and what immediately precedes and leads up to THAT), we can proceed to ask the question "WHY does the evil servant think the Lord has delayed His Coming?" in such a context (that is, FOLLOWING "our Departure/Rapture" when they are existing IN/WITHIN/DURING the TRIB yrs that lead up to His "RETURN" to the EARTH).
WHY would they say such a thing, at such a time? (which time-period corresponds with 2Th2:10-12 [happening in/during/within the TRIB yrs], for example)
... I could tell you why (according to my viewpoint/explanation)...
but I'd like you and the readers to just consider the above two parallel passages (Matthew 24:45-51, etc alongside its parallel Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48, speaking of His "RETURN" to the earth [NOT "Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per context])
Note the parallel passages (for aid in discerning context/setting, etc):
--Matthew 24:48 - "But if that evil servant should say in his heart, 'My master delays,'"
--Luke 12:45 - "But if that servant should say in his heart, 'My master delays to come,' and should begin to beat the men-servants and the maid-servants, and to eat and to drink and to get drunk"
[but notice... the CONTEXT of Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom [see Rev19:7,9])... THEN the meal [G347] (i.e. the earthly MK age)--IOW, this is a Second Coming to the earth passage (so preceding and LEADING UP TO *THAT*), NOT a Rapture passage...]
...so then (in view of that--that this is His "RETURN" to the earth passage, and what immediately precedes and leads up to THAT), we can proceed to ask the question "WHY does the evil servant think the Lord has delayed His Coming?" in such a context (that is, FOLLOWING "our Departure/Rapture" when they are existing IN/WITHIN/DURING the TRIB yrs that lead up to His "RETURN" to the EARTH).
WHY would they say such a thing, at such a time? (which time-period corresponds with 2Th2:10-12 [happening in/during/within the TRIB yrs], for example)
... I could tell you why (according to my viewpoint/explanation)...
but I'd like you and the readers to just consider the above two parallel passages (Matthew 24:45-51, etc alongside its parallel Luke 12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48, speaking of His "RETURN" to the earth [NOT "Rapture [IN THE AIR]," per context])
You did not address the language and grammar of Acts 2. But we can leave that direct statement aside and deal with your proffered scriptures.
In your first Paragraph/quote, you will agree that you have "assumed" that "made perfect" mean resurrected. But you have created a bigger problem than that in doing so. They are NOT made perfect WITHOUT US! So either these men are resurrected AND SO ARE WE, or these men, as the verses says ARE NOT made perfect WITHOUT us, and so are NOT PERFECT - and NOT resurrected.
Next, I will agree that a "cloud" points to heaven. But Hebrews 3:1 tells why. Their CALL is heavenly. Their BIRTH is heavenly, They are "AS" the stars of heaven. But IN heaven??? Nothing says that. Are not you brother, of the heavenly calling? Was not your new birth "from above" (lit. Gk.). Are YOU, as you stand on earth, not Abraham's seed "as the stars of heaven"?
Next, Where is heavenly Jerusalem? Galatians 4:22-29, Revelation 12 and 21 answer. In Galatians text, which I leave below for your reference, TWO SEEDS ARE COMPARED, one FREE and one in BONDAGE, one with a Covenant of PROMISE and one with a Covenant of LAW, one who occupies earthly Jerusalem. But here it stops, for in verse 26 Jerusalem ABOVE is not only mother of the free, but "ALL". That is, She is heavenly in nature, BUT BOTH Jew and Believer (i) are her SEED, and (ii) ON EARTH. By using "US", Paul includes himself - a man living on earth. This is confirmed in Revelation 12 where bedside the Man-Child, the heavenly Woman, who has her offspring on earth, is mother of (i) those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Believers), and (ii) those who keep the commandments of God (the Jewish Remnant). Again, when consummated, in Revelation 21, New Jerusalem is heavenly, but down on earth with some of the peoples of the Nations allowed to visit. So it must be on earth as the nations do not ever go to heaven. And heavenly Jerusalem IS CONSTITUTED with Believer as her Walls and Israel as her Gates.
My point is that HEAVENLY Jerusalem IS NOT IN HEAVEN. It is only heavenly IN NATURE.
But you might cling to "an innumerable company of angels". Are they not in heaven? Well, scripture indicates them as heavenly beings, but if they are serving Jehovah in heaven or on earth is not said. BUT WHAT IS SAID is that "YE are come" - meaning the recipients and readers of Hebrews. Are the recipients and readers of Hebrews in heaven or on earth?
Lastly, you made some comments in your last paragraph, which I can understand looking at things from your point of view. My road to "shame" is not worth defending. But to make a statement that, "Hades is reserved for the unredeemed, the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked" is a bit thoughtless. Abraham is there (Luke 15). David is their according to Acts 2. But if you dispute the plain language that "DAVID is NOT YET ASCENDED", you still are faced with the fact that David WAS there. And then, of all the "unredeemed, unbelieving, ungodly and wicked" was not Jesus our sinless Lord THERE! And not only that, with this statement you designated all the faithful heroes of the Bible in the same category, for they died, and by your very own words were only resurrected from Hades hundreds, even thousands of years later. Are they too the "ungodly"?
For reference:
Galatians 4:22-29
22 "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."
In your first Paragraph/quote, you will agree that you have "assumed" that "made perfect" mean resurrected. But you have created a bigger problem than that in doing so. They are NOT made perfect WITHOUT US! So either these men are resurrected AND SO ARE WE, or these men, as the verses says ARE NOT made perfect WITHOUT us, and so are NOT PERFECT - and NOT resurrected.
Next, I will agree that a "cloud" points to heaven. But Hebrews 3:1 tells why. Their CALL is heavenly. Their BIRTH is heavenly, They are "AS" the stars of heaven. But IN heaven??? Nothing says that. Are not you brother, of the heavenly calling? Was not your new birth "from above" (lit. Gk.). Are YOU, as you stand on earth, not Abraham's seed "as the stars of heaven"?
Next, Where is heavenly Jerusalem? Galatians 4:22-29, Revelation 12 and 21 answer. In Galatians text, which I leave below for your reference, TWO SEEDS ARE COMPARED, one FREE and one in BONDAGE, one with a Covenant of PROMISE and one with a Covenant of LAW, one who occupies earthly Jerusalem. But here it stops, for in verse 26 Jerusalem ABOVE is not only mother of the free, but "ALL". That is, She is heavenly in nature, BUT BOTH Jew and Believer (i) are her SEED, and (ii) ON EARTH. By using "US", Paul includes himself - a man living on earth. This is confirmed in Revelation 12 where bedside the Man-Child, the heavenly Woman, who has her offspring on earth, is mother of (i) those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (Believers), and (ii) those who keep the commandments of God (the Jewish Remnant). Again, when consummated, in Revelation 21, New Jerusalem is heavenly, but down on earth with some of the peoples of the Nations allowed to visit. So it must be on earth as the nations do not ever go to heaven. And heavenly Jerusalem IS CONSTITUTED with Believer as her Walls and Israel as her Gates.
My point is that HEAVENLY Jerusalem IS NOT IN HEAVEN. It is only heavenly IN NATURE.
But you might cling to "an innumerable company of angels". Are they not in heaven? Well, scripture indicates them as heavenly beings, but if they are serving Jehovah in heaven or on earth is not said. BUT WHAT IS SAID is that "YE are come" - meaning the recipients and readers of Hebrews. Are the recipients and readers of Hebrews in heaven or on earth?
Lastly, you made some comments in your last paragraph, which I can understand looking at things from your point of view. My road to "shame" is not worth defending. But to make a statement that, "Hades is reserved for the unredeemed, the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the wicked" is a bit thoughtless. Abraham is there (Luke 15). David is their according to Acts 2. But if you dispute the plain language that "DAVID is NOT YET ASCENDED", you still are faced with the fact that David WAS there. And then, of all the "unredeemed, unbelieving, ungodly and wicked" was not Jesus our sinless Lord THERE! And not only that, with this statement you designated all the faithful heroes of the Bible in the same category, for they died, and by your very own words were only resurrected from Hades hundreds, even thousands of years later. Are they too the "ungodly"?
For reference:
Galatians 4:22-29
22 "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now."
Well said, I think the pastor from Colombus Bible Church explained well what "Led Captivity Captive" really meant in Ephesians, by linking it to Revelations 13
For me, I believe David, like all the OT saints are in Paradise now, or Abraham's bosom, that part on Earth that is separated from Hades, as Jesus explained in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus
For me, I believe David, like all the OT saints are in Paradise now, or Abraham's bosom, that part on Earth that is separated from Hades, as Jesus explained in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus
@ Coban "
" 1 There is no record of a dead man ever going to heaven in the whole Bible - only live men
Dead men are unclean - how could they appear before God in heaven
Dead men are naked - how can they appear naked before God?"
Lol adam did
Also,if resurrected,and raptured,as was Jesus,they are not dead men going to heaven.
" 1 There is no record of a dead man ever going to heaven in the whole Bible - only live men
Dead men are unclean - how could they appear before God in heaven
Dead men are naked - how can they appear naked before God?"
Lol adam did
Also,if resurrected,and raptured,as was Jesus,they are not dead men going to heaven.