Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

[Absolutely]

Hello Absolutely!

Where did you get the idea that I was saying that those who came out of their tombs did so in their immortal and glorified bodies? If you go back and read my posts (any of them), I have been teaching that all of the people that Jesus or the Apostles brought back to life such as Lazarus, Jairus' 12 year old daughter, Tabitha whom Peter raised and the young man who fell out of the window, etc. All of these and others were resurrected back into their mortal bodies and they died again. That is what I have been teaching. I have also been saying that no one but Jesus has yet been resurrected in His immortal and glorified. Jesus is the first fruits of those who rise from the dead in their immortal and glorified bodies and the church as a group, is next.



I did mention this in a recent post. Those that Jesus took captivity, would be those OT saints who were in the comfort/paradise area of Hades. Everyone in Christ who dies now, their spirits depart from their body and go to be in the presence of the Lord. I mentioned this in a previous post citing the following two scriptures:

==============================================================================
Therefore we are always confident, although we know that while we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord. For we walk by faith, not by sight. We are confident, then, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. So what shall I choose? I do not know. I am torn between the two. I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better indeed. But it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
=============================================================================

Therefore, the OT saints and those who have died in Christ, their spirits are in heaven in the presence of the Lord and are awaiting for the resurrection of their immortal and glorified bodies from heaven side.

No sir.
If those patriarchs did not resurrect and then ascend as firstfruits then they lived on for who knows how many years.
That would mean David,noah,Elijah, Elisha, Daniel, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc would have been part of the NT church.

That is extremely far fetched,and would have made bible headlines.
.....but no mention what so ever.

They were raised from the dead and then ascended as firstfruits.
Jesus took captivity captive. The souls in paradise raised bodily and ascended to heaven.

 

[Ahwatukee]

No sir.
If those patriarchs did not resurrect and then ascend as firstfruits then they lived on for who knows how many years.
That would mean David,noah,Elijah, Elisha, Daniel, Abraham, Moses, Jacob, etc would have been part of the NT church.

That is extremely far fetched,and would have made bible headlines.
.....but no mention what so ever.

They were raised from the dead and then ascended as firstfruits.
Jesus took captivity captive. The souls in paradise raised bodily and ascended to heaven.

Those people who came out of the tombs rose in their mortal bodies and died again. It was the spirits that were down in Hades that were taken to heaven. Those who came out of the tombs did so in their mortal bodies and died again.

No one but Jesus has been resurrected in His immortal and glorified body. Everyone else is in spirit in heaven.

 

[CS1]

And this comes from a person who is telling me that the resurrection comes in phases. Look I don't want to argue with you. You are free to believe whatever you want. I only present what God has shown me in the bible, people can take it or leave it.

phases hmm please show me where I used the term phases over the word different events?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So we’re pretty much tossing out Jesus saying the resurrection is on the last day?

Now what are you calling "the last day"?? The day Jesus rose from the dead (on Firstfruits, in 32ad)?? I did not think you were calling THAT "the last day" (as you seem to be, here... in view of your other posts on this). I'm getting confused by your take on things. = ) It doesn't seem to be consistent (to me, anyway, lol).






[note: "IN the last day," versus "ON the last day" (as you have it)... I believe Scripture itself refers to the former of these two... and that "the last day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day"... though certain things surely take place at certain points-in-time "IN the last day" (understood in its entirety)]

 

[KJV1611]

phases hmm please show me where I used the term phases over the word different events?

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The last part of that verse is the resurrection and the judgement in which EVERY SINGLE PERSON who has slept in the dust will take part in.

The first part of that verse, talks about an event that takes place simultaneously with the resurrection of the last part of the verse. Only SOME of them that sleep in the dust are raised.

The Raising of Bodies - MANY of them but NOT ALL of them that sleep in the ground will be raised.
The Resurrection - ALL of them that sleep in the ground are raised and judged.

Those 2 SEPARATE EVENTS happened on the same day.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure this out.

I think you assume they happen on the same day If that were the case Jesu could not be returning with HIS saints. Also, the great White Throne Judgement is not for Christ, they will go to what the bible talks about as the Seat of Christ, and the works they did after salvation will be judged. it seems you are mixing many distinctive events which the bible when you read it must be kept in context to that event no matter when it is listed in the word of God not all are chronological.

The end times, last day, Day of the Lord, Coming of the Lord, call out of, Taking out of the way, the millennial reign the final judgment. Daniel spoke of many of these and so did Zacharia and others. Yet as Jesus did in Matthew 24-24 chapters He was answering three questions when will the temple be destroyed, what will be the sign of your coming, and the end of the world.

Jesus speaks on each of these and so did John and others as the Holy Spirit led them.

 

[KJV1611]

Now what are you calling "the last day"?? The day Jesus rose from the dead (on Firstfruits, in 32ad)?? I did not think you were calling THAT "the last day" (as you seem to be, here... in view of your other posts on this). I'm getting confused by your take on things. = ) It doesn't seem to be consistent (to me, anyway, lol).






[note: "IN the last day," versus "ON the last day" (as you have it)... I believe Scripture itself refers to the former of these two... and that "the last day" is not merely "a singular 24-hr day"... though certain things surely take place at certain points-in-time "IN the last day" (understood in its entirety)]

Im working on a response to your last post to me. I'll come back to this when I'm done.

 

[CS1]

OK yes as I said different events, not a phase. I stand by my comment the Resurrection of Jesus who is "the Resurrection and the life" must not be mixed up with the same word which is different in the word found in Greek to describe those who have or will be resurrected at a different time.

There very contrast you used found in the Bible should show they are different

one resurrected to eternal life
the other resurrected to eternal damnation.

 

[Absolutely]

Those people who came out of the tombs rose in their mortal bodies and died again. It was the spirits that were down in Hades that were taken to heaven. Those who came out of the tombs did so in their mortal bodies and died again.

No one but Jesus has been resurrected in His immortal and glorified body. Everyone else is in spirit in heaven.

Then those resurrected patriarchs lived to be part of the NT church correct?

 

[Guojing]

Then those resurrected patriarchs lived to be part of the NT church correct?

They will dwell on the Earth, in the land promised to them in Jerusalem, as promised to Abraham in Genesis 15:18–21

The NT church's destiny is in the heavens (Ephesians 1:3)

 

[KJV1611]

OK yes as I said different events, not a phase. I stand by my comment the Resurrection of Jesus who is "the Resurrection and the life" must not be mixed up with the same word which is different in the word found in Greek to describe those who have or will be resurrected at a different time.

There very contrast you used found in the Bible should show they are different

one resurrected to eternal life
the other resurrected to eternal damnation.

The resurrection is a ONE TIME event that happened on the Last Day 2000 years ago.

 

[brightfame52]

The resurrection is a ONE TIME event that happened on the Last Day 2000 years ago.

Huh? This sounds odd. Care to explain?

 

[KJV1611]

Huh? This sounds odd. Care to explain?

Hello birghtframe52, sure I can explain.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection in Daniel 12 happened at the time of Jacobs trouble. The bodies of MANY dead people rose simultaneously. Some of them rose to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. The same story is given in Matthew but Matthew focuses on the saints that rose.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The reason MANY bodies were raised instead of all, is because those that rose bodily, walked the streets of Jerusalem in witness and judgement against Israel. Nevertheless, all of those who slept in dust were resurrected but not all were raised bodily.

The resurrection doesn't have anything to do with raising dead earthly bodies, the resurrection is the resurrection of the soul as explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians. If you read those verse objectively you will find that "It" in those verses is our souls.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 

[brightfame52]

Hello birghtframe52, sure I can explain.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection in Daniel 12 happened at the time of Jacobs trouble. The bodies of MANY dead people rose simultaneously. Some of them rose to everlasting life and some to everlasting contempt. The same story is given in Matthew but Matthew focuses on the saints that rose.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The reason MANY bodies were raised instead of all, is because those that rose bodily, walked the streets of Jerusalem in witness and judgement against Israel. Nevertheless, all of those who slept in dust were resurrected but not all were raised bodily.

The resurrection doesn't have anything to do with raising dead earthly bodies, the resurrection is the resurrection of the soul as explained by Paul in 1 Corinthians. If you read those verse objectively you will find that "It" in those verses is our souls.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Yeah but the daniel passage said some wake to everlasting contempt. Do you believe that occured in Matt 27:52-53 also ?

 

[KJV1611]

Yeah but the daniel passage said some wake to everlasting contempt. Do you believe that occured in Matt 27:52-53 also ?

Yes I believe the resurrection is a one time event that occurred at the resurrection of Christ. Although some physical bodies were raised at that time, the raising of those bodies wasn't The Resurrection. The Resurrection according to 1 Corinthians is the resurrection of the human soul... Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and placed into an earthly body.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; 1) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and 2) they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The Saints were raised from death to life just like we are raised from death to life when we accept Christ as our savior. That raising IS the resurrection of the just (1). The wicked were raised at the same time but they were resurrected to the resurrection of damnation (2).

I really don't know what happens with the souls of those that were raised to the resurrection of damnation because the bible is pretty much silent on that or least I haven't noticed it. Nevertheless, their souls were raised and judged at The Resurrection.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes I believe the resurrection is a one time event that occurred at the resurrection of Christ. Although some physical bodies were raised at that time, the raising of those bodies wasn't The Resurrection. The Resurrection according to 1 Corinthians is the resurrection of the human soul... Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and placed into an earthly body.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; 1) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and 2) they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The Saints were raised from death to life just like we are raised from death to life when we accept Christ as our savior. That raising IS the resurrection of the just (1). The wicked were raised at the same time but they were resurrected to the resurrection of damnation (2).

I really don't know what happens with the souls of those that were raised to the resurrection of damnation because the bible is pretty much silent on that or least I haven't noticed it. Nevertheless, their souls were raised and judged at The Resurrection.

Doesnt make sense to me, but to each his own opinion

 

[pottersclay]

Those people who came out of the tombs rose in their mortal bodies and died again. It was the spirits that were down in Hades that were taken to heaven. Those who came out of the tombs did so in their mortal bodies and died again.

No one but Jesus has been resurrected in His immortal and glorified body. Everyone else is in spirit in heaven.

Ahwatukee are you referring to the crucifixion event?

 

[pottersclay]

Doesnt make sense to me, but to each his own opinion

If he keeps that viewpoint then that justifies his others that are not grounded in scripture also.☺☺

 

[brightfame52]

I believe in One Resurrection in the last day or at the last day like here Jn 11 23-25

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jn 6 39-40,44,54

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[KJV1611]

I believe in One Resurrection in the last day or at the last day like here Jn 11 23-25

23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jn 6 39-40,44,54

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

What is the last day?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ahwatukee are you referring to the crucifixion event?

Hello! No, I'm talking about those who came out of the tombs and went into the city after Christ had resurrected, as well as those Christ raised from the dead prior to that.

Some have been saying that the patriarchs and other OT saints have already been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies, which I disagree with. I have been saying that Christ alone is the only human being to be raised in His immortal and glorified body and that the church (those at His coming) is next.