The dead don't know anything, and can't talk or praise the LORD

[bud62]

So you read this and you do not see that he is talking about how all their plans and efforts for this life (under the sun) have perished?

The author of Eccl is not thinking that these he is referring to have a reward of the resurrection, (neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.) Therefore you would be dishonest to apply this verse to what happens to Christians when they die wouldn't you? Stop trying to make scriptures support your cult teachings. They never will.

Christians can stand on this verse:
2 Cor 5:
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord!
THAT ENDS ALL CONTROVERSY.
This is because when you die you have no Memory , LIKE the BIBLE says, THAT means if you have been dead a thousand years years. it will be like the blink of the eye,

Now put that in your cult pipe and smoke it!

Now come on with me and .....Let's do the figurine.... boom boom.... do the figurine.... dah dah... just do the figurine...

 

[bud62]

I don't keep up with the name cults but is YESUAH even a real word?

It is A lot closer to the LORDS name then JESUS IS

 

[bud62]

NO I DON'T IT SAYS THEIR MOMORY < THEY HAVE NO MEMORY, THEY DO NOT LOVE NO ONE TIL they are resurrected,
THEY GO DOWN TO SILENCE, that means they can not HEAR,

 

[posthuman]

This was not Samuel, It was A devil.

then why does God write,

"Samuel said" ​

(1 Kings 28:4 kjv)​

​

?

don't you believe Him?
omniscient holy God writes, "Samuel said" -- but Bud writes, "a devil said"

why, Bud? i am sure it is more likely that you do not understand Ecclesiastes than it is that God is a liar.

 

[Scribe]

It is A lot closer to the LORDS name then JESUS IS

Since Jesus comes from the transliteration of Yeshua into Greek and then English it is a valid English transliteration.
OK, I looked it up. Yesuah is the transliteration from Hebrew for Joshua (also a transliteration) but since they were mostly speaking Greek at the time of Christ (very few knew Hebrew or used it in the 1st century) they used the Greek spelling Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), from which, through the Latin IESVS/Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

So then when speaking English Jesus is closer to Iesous (Greek) which was no the lips of the apostles not yesuah since they did not use Hebrew.

What makes you think it is closer to the original? Original WHAT? Not the original word that was on the lips of the Apostles. The apostles used the word Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), because it is well known that they were not speaking Hebrew. They also spoke in Aramaic in which case they would have said Yeshu, but they spoke in Greek just or more especiall when conversing with non Jews and therefore the name Iesous (Ἰησοῦς),

Think about it. You've been duped. If you want to use the word that the apostles used use Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), or Yeshu, both since they used both.

Also consider your audience. If you are speaking to southerners in Tennessee people know who you are talking about when you speak about Jesus, when you insist on Yesuah, and you can't speak Hebrew then they suspect you are in a cult. If you like that, and want to confuse people keep using it.

 

[Scribe]

NO I DON'T IT SAYS THEIR MOMORY < THEY HAVE NO MEMORY, THEY DO NOT LOVE NO ONE TIL they are resurrected,
THEY GO DOWN TO SILENCE, that means they can not HEAR,

He said they have no reward so that means they don't get resurrected to eternal life now doesn't it?

 

[Nehemiah6]

======================================
Neh,
Post is just stating a 'given'!
you weren't 'nit-pickin' were you?

He should never have invoked Solomon, who also went into apostasy.

People should understand that Ecclesiastes reflects the thoughts of the natural man -- who only sees things "under the sun". But not necessarily "under the Son". So all the cults turn to Ecclesiastes for *consolation*.

 

[bud62]

Since Jesus comes from the transliteration of Yeshua into Greek and then English it is a valid English transliteration.
OK, I looked it up. Yesuah is the transliteration from Hebrew for Joshua (also a transliteration) but since they were mostly speaking Greek at the time of Christ (very few knew Hebrew or used it in the 1st century) they used the Greek spelling Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), from which, through the Latin IESVS/Iesus, comes the English spelling Jesus.

So then when speaking English Jesus is closer to Iesous (Greek) which was no the lips of the apostles not yesuah since they did not use Hebrew.

What makes you think it is closer to the original? Original WHAT? Not the original word that was on the lips of the Apostles. The apostles used the word Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), because it is well known that they were not speaking Hebrew. They also spoke in Aramaic in which case they would have said Yeshu, but they spoke in Greek just or more especiall when conversing with non Jews and therefore the name Iesous (Ἰησοῦς),

Think about it. You've been duped. If you want to use the word that the apostles used use Iesous (Ἰησοῦς), or Yeshu, both since they used both.

Also consider your audience. If you are speaking to southerners in Tennessee people know who you are talking about when you speak about Jesus, when you insist on Yesuah, and you can't speak Hebrew then they suspect you are in a cult. If you like that, and want to confuse people keep using it.

PRAISE GOD HE WAS HEBREWS, And would HAVE A HEBREW NAME

 

[Scribe]

PRAISE GOD HE WAS HEBREWS, And would HAVE A HEBREW NAME

Not necessarily. They were Hellenized in Judea at this time. The Hebrew language had been replaced by Aramaic from the time of the Babylonia Exile and then the Persian Empire. After this the Greek culture permeated the whole world including Israel between the testaments they adopted this culture through their own leaders and rulers. Read a New Testament Survey book and it will fill you in on all the culture details of the time between the testaments and what daily life was like at the time of Christ.

The Greek version of their names was common and acceptable to them. They did not have an issue with it, therefore those today 2000 years later do not have a valid argument that their Greek version of their names is a problem today. If it was not a problem to them at that time it is a lie to teach people that it is a problem today. Let's not follow ignorant fanatics who don't understand New Testament history because they don't read.

 

[bud62]

Not necessarily. They were Hellenized in Judea at this time. The Hebrew language had been replaced by Aramaic from the time of the Babylonia Exile and then the Persian Empire. Read a New Testament Survey book and it will fill you in on all the culture details of the time between the testaments and what daily life was like at the time of Christ.
The Greek version of their names was common and acceptable to them. They did not have an issue with it, therefore those today 2000 years later do not have a valid argument that their Greek version of their names is a problem today. If it was not a problem to them at that time it is a lie to teach people that it is a problem today. Let's not follow ignorant fanatics who don't understand New Testament history because they don't read.

He was A JEW And I'm sure GOD give HIM A JESISH NAME Since GOD name HIM

 

[Ahwatukee]

This was not Samuel, It was A devil. THE dead CAN NOT TALK,

First of all, that was Samuel who came up. There is nothing in the scripture that would suggest otherwise. If it was a demon, he couldn't come up from the Abyss, because they are restricted there.

The spirits of the dead can indeed talk and are conscious and aware. Remember Moses and Elijah meeting and speaking with Jesus when He was transfigured on the mountain? Remember the rich man and Lazarus? And how about the souls of those saints under the alter at the opening of the 5th seal who have a conversation with the Lord?

Do you even read the scriptures? Or do you just continue to repeat the false teachings of men?

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun. .

Eccl.9:5 does not mean that the dead are unconscious and unaware.

The key to understanding this is the theme "under the sun" which is referring to those who are alive, i.e. the events that take place in the realm of the living. The first part of the verse sets the theme, which says "The living know that they will die," which is in opposition to those who are dead. Allow me to paraphrase:

* For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, i.e.. they know nothing that goes on in the realm of the living.

* They have no further reward, i.e. they have no further reward in the realm of the living.

* Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, i.e. they can't experience those things because they are no longer in the realm of the living.

The last part of the scripture tells it all:

They will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun, i.e. because they are no longer in the realm of the living.

You and others have clung to this scripture in order to prove that when people die that they are not conscious or aware of anything, which is false. Everything that is said is in contrast between the realm of the dead and the realm of the living. The meaning is that the dead no longer have part in the things of the living, the things that go on under the sun. The term "under the sun" is referring to those who are alive and all that transpires in life upon the earth.

So please stop this nonsense of misinterpreting Eccl.9:5-6.

 

[Scribe]

He was A JEW And I'm sure GOD give HIM A JESISH NAME Since GOD name HIM

Well we have a Bible that was written in Greek. Now you can imagine what you will about what Gabriel said when he was speaking to Mary, but it was written as. Iēsoun (Ἰησοῦν) in Matthew.
Now if you want to be a technical stickler for the correct spelling you would stick with Iesoun and be done with it. But you are insisting on something that Matthew did not write down.
Now what do you do with that? You arguments are accusing Matthew of making a mistake. You should be ashamed.
It is ok to admit you have been wrong and start using the name Ἰησοῦν everytime you spell it.
I think I will start doing that just to make a point. Keep everyone scratching their heads. LOL

Ἰησοῦν said Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Ἰησοῦν is pronounced like saying the words Yeah So or Yeah Sew

So in order to be 100% in agreement with what Matthew wrote when Gabriel told Mary what to name Jesus he said Ἰησοῦν and you must spell it that way if you want to do it right. You were WAY off. LOL

 

[laymen]

Please stop yelling at us

There are a lot of scriptures that reference the dead, in the sense, that they are alive fisicly, but are dead spiritually (unregenerate).

Are you familiar with 1 Samuel 28 where Saul had a woman with a familiar spirit to pull up Samuel from the grave and talked to him about whether he should go to war with the Philistines?

1. You can only be spiritually dead if you are alive Physically .
2. And you can only be Spiritually Alive if you are Physically Alive.

When the "breath" of Life i.e the "Spirit" goes back to the Lord who "blew" it. The Body goes back to dust. The you sleep in the lord knowing nothing. (Eph 9:5)
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,....... The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ec 9:5). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
fd
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Ge 2:7). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

 

[Bookends]

Revelation 6 should settle part of this debate, in my opinion:

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 6 should settle part of this debate, in my opinion:

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

You'd think that it would settle the debate, unfortunately it never does. The proof of scripture just goes in one ear and out the other and that because it doesn't support the false teachings that they have already adopted.

I also mentioned Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

Then you have the rich man and Lazarus information

Jesus told the thief that 'today, you will be with me in paradise.' How could Jesus make that promise when they both died that day? Their bodies died but there spirits went to that place of comfort/paradise in Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Moses was resurrected before CHRIST was resurrected,

yes agreed it’s a matter of when Christ was born so was Lazarus resurrected before Jesus was , brother Jesus has the power of eternal Life and the power to condemn one forever

but his will is that we believe him and live . Moses hasn’t actually been physically resurrected yet , it’s Moses heavenly body we’re seeing there there isn’t only a physical body but a spiritual one Moses and Elijah there appear in glory

“There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:

but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:40, 44-45, 47, 49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the promises of the gospel are amazing when you really examine them brother overall man messed this up and Godnis restoring things

“The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's:

but the earth hath he given to the children of men.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭115:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


So it was necessary for Christ to become the son of man to reconcile heaven and earth but there is a realm of the heavens and one of the earth man has a spirit and a body the spirit came from and goes to God at death , while the flesh returns to the earth it cake from

a physical resurrection will occur when he retires heaven and earth for our new eternal bodies but until then like Moses we will receive the promised heavenly body so we can belong to the church in its true home in the heavens with the lord until the restitution comes

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-11, 13-17‬ ‭

“serve him day and night in his temple:”

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Pilgrimshope]

To YESUAH most is going to be destroyed For not repenting and Holding To the sins that they love more then HIM,

Amen , yes I like how Hebrews puts it , that everything temporal is going to be shaken and crumble away and only the kingdom of God will remain I like that visual like a scripture seeing everything crumble away and what is left is the beautiful eternal kingdom God intended for man

“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh.

For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth:

but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made,

that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:24-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[laymen]

Revelation 6 should settle part of this debate, in my opinion:

Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

You’re trying to show literal interpretation to a symbolic representation of heaven. With your interpretation you would have to say there’s a pale her horse in heaven? You’re trying to interpret this with a preconceived notion that a soul soul is separate from the body. This is why the basics of life and death should be understand before trying to understand Revelation. You must go back to learn of the milk sir.

 

[ChoirLoft]

You'd think that it would settle the debate, unfortunately it never does. The proof of scripture just goes in one ear and out the other and that because it doesn't support the false teachings that they have already adopted.

I also mentioned Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration.

Then you have the rich man and Lazarus information

Jesus told the thief that 'today, you will be with me in paradise.' How could Jesus make that promise when they both died that day? Their bodies died but there spirits went to that place of comfort/paradise in Hades where Abraham and Lazarus were.

I'm answering your post because you are on the right track. Disregarding doctrine almost requires one to dig deeper into scripture. People are generally too lazy to shovel their way to truth.

Be advised there is a great deal of Latinized influence upon scripture translations. Here's an example you can vett by researching the words themselves.

HADES is the name of the Greek god of the underworld. The Romans named this same deity Pluto, from which the ninth planet of our solar system was named (until the title 'planet' was redacted). Hades has NO Biblical equivalent. Hades is actually a mythical person, not a place. Look it up.

In common use, however, the Latinized word hades is generally thought to imply a subterranean torture chamber managed by Jesus Christ. In point of fact there is no reference to such a duty of Jesus or of God's desire to torture anybody. God kills. God does not torture. There is no such thing as hell. The purpose of the devil is to consume like a fire. Demons are likened to vultures - birds that dine on roadkill. In Matthew 24, Jesus' disciples ask where the people are taken who disappear from the world. The Master replies they are taken to the place where vultures gather - the place of destruction. They don't go to heaven as present error suggests.

Additional errors in translation ascribe the underworld as Gehenna. Gehenna was originally the place where apostate Hebrews sacrificed their children to the pagan god Molech. References to Gehenna were meant to imply the Jerusalem city dump, used by Jesus in His parables about the destiny of the dead who rejected God in life. The condition is described as one of utter destruction where the fires and worms continually rage, but the refuse is completely burned to nothing. There is no torment in a dump, only consumption.

The word Paradise referred to a garden in Old Testament writing. If you've ever been in the desert in the Middle East you will appreciate the appearance of an Oasis and its "sweet water" as the Arabs call it. It's a paradise in a sea of desolation. Just so is meant the destiny of those who die in Christ, for He is our Oasis. The New Testament promises this fellowship even during our physical life as well as a garden of blessings in God's Holy City in the afterlife. The word thus has a dual meaning. Jesus is our paradise as well as a future residence. Thus the words of Jesus to the thief on the cross promised that the thief would live with Christ thereafter. Whether or not the man got an apartment in New Jerusalem is a matter of conjecture.

Hope this helps.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Why do I write this caution? According to the Bible the destiny of man is death. Death means death - no physical mental or spiritual activity at all. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal" - Genesis 6:3a

The word that you refer unto was made after the males begin having children with the female helpmates the LORD had formed from the beginning of mankind on earth. More specifically, after they began taking unto themselves the daughters of the men as wives.

It was at that time that the LORD said that he wasn't going to argue with a man over his word for that he was flesh also. As such, he set man's days to 120 years. However, the interpretation that you quoted states that the LORD said human beings are mortal which is quite different than saying the days of man in the flesh are 120 years.

However, those that claim that the reference to 120 years in Genesis 6:3 is referring unto the number of years till the flood need to toss those Bibles and get the one your using, the Bible you quote completely eliminates the necessity for fabricating an explanation for the 120 years reference by removing it completely from the text. It is pretty obvious the point on the timelines was after men began multiplying, somewhere around the 9th month, or in the beginning, if you will. And yet it was before the children of those men began to have children which could be said to be as many as 16 years later.

It is extremely difficult to say that something which was said around 40 years after the beginning of life on earth had anything to do with the time till Noah who wouldn't be born for another 900 years, not 120 years.

But you are right about death, it is the cessation of life, and once life ends it no longer exists. Good thing that the flesh is animated by life and not the other way around since that would mean that when the flesh ceases to be animate, the life is dead.