Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

Reformed1689 · Dec 15, 2020

What does it mean that Noah "found" grace or "found" favor? Favor didn't exist physically and Noah happened upon it. It's a description of the change that occurred with regard to God and Noah's relationship to one another. Noah in this case "finds" favor because it is something that he did not merit nor deserve by his own accomplishments, but that God Chose to favor Noah.

Consider this definition from Merriam-Webster. Remember that "found" is a past tense of the root "find"

Notice 1a and 1b are rather similar, but with a slight nuance. The word found in Genesis 6 is not annotating in any way that Noah has done something to acquire the favor of God. He walked faithfully, and was a righteous man.. even blameless among the people of his time as verse 9 says... but again, notice.. this is not what merited having found favor with God.

Okay, let's see what the scripture saith.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

First, we can see in verse 2 the focus of this portion of the chapter is on Justification not on how someone arrives to faith. Statement in verse three about crediting righteousness is not saying that Abraham believed first and then God chose him. It is saying that Justification, or the "declaring of being righteous before God" is done so legally and in coherence with God's nature on the basis of Abraham's faith. Notice here again we see that justification is given to Abraham by God. It does not mean that God saves Abraham because of Abraham's faith.

This is a great time to point out that elsewhere in scripture where the mechanics of salvation are discussed that's again established that not only is faith something that God gives us, but repentance itself is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

God granted Abraham faith and repentance. It is through Abraham's faith that God can legally credit to Abraham's account righteousness without which he wouldn't be able to be "right with God."

Honestly after reviewing this one I really don't see how it fits into any of your argument. Could you please expound on this scripture as to how it might lead one to think God does not choose? Thank you!

Yes, God saves those that believe.

1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Notice here that even in the scripture you quote we again see this assertion by the scriptures that God is the prime mover of salvation. God saves people through their faith and not because of their faith. It's a small distinction but an important one.

Reformed1689 · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

Where does scripture say anything like that?

Let's look at Romans 8.

Romans 8

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice here in Romans 8 we have the "process" of salvation beginning not with someone's predestination, or even their repentance. God does not look down the corridors of time hoping to catch a glimpse of whether we've been naught or nice so he can decide our eternal salvation. In this case God doesn't actually have any power over salvation and simply makes him a ceremonial King like the monarch of the UK. It is actually what makes God who he is (his attributes) that makes salvation possible through his power (omniscience). God not only has the power to save us, but he has the knowledge to do so. His foreknowledge of us is not dependent upon us, but is actually a more intimate knowing of us that is the driving force in the chain of salvation. He foreknows his flock, and he predestines his flock. The flock does not choose its own shepherd.

John 10
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Notice here Jesus say that his sheep (us) know his voice and it is because we know his voice that we follow him. The question remains though, how did we (the sheep) come to know him?

Matthew 13

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Notice here in Matthew 13 when Jesus is asked why he speaks in parables he says it's because he doesn't want some of the people present to hear. He then quotes from Isaiah a curse that God gave where he stated he would not let the people hear or see the truth specifically because if they did see and hear it would lead to their salvation.

Isaiah 6
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

“‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
And he said:
“Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is a desolate waste,
12 and the Lord removes people far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned[f] again,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed[g] is its stump.

Isaiah 6 describes a terrible judgement of not only physical destruction but spiritual outcast.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

There's nowhere in the scriptures where "foreknow" with regard to salvation is associated with a time limit of five minutes. I know it's somewhat of a figure of speech, but everything the scripture says in this regard is with reference and often clearly so has referring to before the foundation of the earth. This is because the plan of salvation is eternal, because God is eternal.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Quite the contrary. If you'll take a look at the portions I bolded above from Ephesians 1 you'll see it's a rather charitable option when reading scripture plainly. I'm not scholar of ancient language so I tend to rely on English, but "before the foundation of the world" is clearly a reference to the creation of the world. It also clearly says that he chose us.

Elsewhere we also learn that part of the "mechanics" of this is limited to God acting as the "first mover" and not man. John 6 Jesus is addressing a group of Jews talking about the bread of life, and he says

John 6

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

As you can see, Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability to come to him unless the father draws them first. This is a reference to having been chosen by God.

Let's look at what happens in Genesis 6.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

Notice here the language is clear that Noah did not have any foreknowledge of what was about to happen to the world. Nor did he have any knowledge prior to the occurrence that God would choose to preserve mankind through him. He did not choose to build an Ark so much as God chose Noah to build the Ark. This is a pattern that is established over and over again in scripture. We can dispute the nature of what that choosing is and the nature of the chosen, but it's an unescapable theme. You are right to say that in the dynamic between God and Noah and the construction of the Ark that the relationship of Choser:Chosen is God:Noah.

I m not able to come to Party unless I recieve the invitation. This is essentially John 6.44 . John 6.55 is key here. Notice the CAN COME in 6.44
And remember its pre cross . John 12 .32 hasn't happened yet.

43¶Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me down draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all TAUGHT of God. Every man therefore that hath HEARD , and hath LEARNED of the Father, COMETH UNTO ME.

46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 6 is simply referring to those ( sheep / Jews) Who would recognise the Son if they had been truly learning and following the Father . They CAN come by God's invitation but all that did Come mostly fled later . So COMING is not BELIEVING.

Then this verse gets bent out of shape by Calvinists, resorting to " oh this is all KINDS of men " lol 😆
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

There's nowhere in the scriptures where "foreknow" with regard to salvation is associated with a time limit of five minutes. I know it's somewhat of a figure of speech, but everything the scripture says in this regard is with reference and often clearly so has referring to before the foundation of the earth. This is because the plan of salvation is eternal, because God is eternal.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Quite the contrary. If you'll take a look at the portions I bolded above from Ephesians 1 you'll see it's a rather charitable option when reading scripture plainly. I'm not scholar of ancient language so I tend to rely on English, but "before the foundation of the world" is clearly a reference to the creation of the world. It also clearly says that he chose us.

Elsewhere we also learn that part of the "mechanics" of this is limited to God acting as the "first mover" and not man. John 6 Jesus is addressing a group of Jews talking about the bread of life, and he says

John 6

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

As you can see, Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability to come to him unless the father draws them first. This is a reference to having been chosen by God.

Let's look at what happens in Genesis 6.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

Notice here the language is clear that Noah did not have any foreknowledge of what was about to happen to the world. Nor did he have any knowledge prior to the occurrence that God would choose to preserve mankind through him. He did not choose to build an Ark so much as God chose Noah to build the Ark. This is a pattern that is established over and over again in scripture. We can dispute the nature of what that choosing is and the nature of the chosen, but it's an unescapable theme. You are right to say that in the dynamic between God and Noah and the construction of the Ark that the relationship of Choser:Chosen is God:Noah.

Reguarding Ephesians 1 . Verse 3 is key. With the Kjv ( : ) and ( according ) so we see in verse 3 what blessings Paul wants the church to understand they have been blessed with IN CHRIST JESUS . Most calvinists quote this verse ( verse 4 ) ignoring IN HIM and verse 3 to see what ACCORDING to is referring to . The solution is the answer to this question ' when did you get IN HIM ?
And remember it doesn't say " chosen to BE saved / converted " .

Rather God chose those in Christ to be holy and blameless. ( purpose )
Jesus is the only elect pre existing one before the foundation. The purpose was chosen before the foundation that all those that believe would be predestined to the future adoption . Rom 8 .23 .

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)
Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

Christ’s life, not his death is what saves. (Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 15:17)

Sinner is saved by regeneration, not atonement. (Tit. 3:5)

Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement. (Rom. 3:23; 8:17-30)

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

Where does scripture say anything like that?

Let's look at Romans 8.

Romans 8

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice here in Romans 8 we have the "process" of salvation beginning not with someone's predestination, or even their repentance. God does not look down the corridors of time hoping to catch a glimpse of whether we've been naught or nice so he can decide our eternal salvation. In this case God doesn't actually have any power over salvation and simply makes him a ceremonial King like the monarch of the UK. It is actually what makes God who he is (his attributes) that makes salvation possible through his power (omniscience). God not only has the power to save us, but he has the knowledge to do so. His foreknowledge of us is not dependent upon us, but is actually a more intimate knowing of us that is the driving force in the chain of salvation. He foreknows his flock, and he predestines his flock. The flock does not choose its own shepherd.

John 10
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Notice here Jesus say that his sheep (us) know his voice and it is because we know his voice that we follow him. The question remains though, how did we (the sheep) come to know him?

Matthew 13

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Notice here in Matthew 13 when Jesus is asked why he speaks in parables he says it's because he doesn't want some of the people present to hear. He then quotes from Isaiah a curse that God gave where he stated he would not let the people hear or see the truth specifically because if they did see and hear it would lead to their salvation.

Isaiah 6
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

“‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
And he said:
“Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is a desolate waste,
12 and the Lord removes people far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned[f] again,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed[g] is its stump.

Isaiah 6 describes a terrible judgement of not only physical destruction but spiritual outcast.

These verses refer to ISREAL .And the answer to Rom 8 is to question when are you conformed ? Rom 8.23 is the answer .Its yet future .

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

There's nowhere in the scriptures where "foreknow" with regard to salvation is associated with a time limit of five minutes. I know it's somewhat of a figure of speech, but everything the scripture says in this regard is with reference and often clearly so has referring to before the foundation of the earth. This is because the plan of salvation is eternal, because God is eternal.

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[b] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Quite the contrary. If you'll take a look at the portions I bolded above from Ephesians 1 you'll see it's a rather charitable option when reading scripture plainly. I'm not scholar of ancient language so I tend to rely on English, but "before the foundation of the world" is clearly a reference to the creation of the world. It also clearly says that he chose us.

Elsewhere we also learn that part of the "mechanics" of this is limited to God acting as the "first mover" and not man. John 6 Jesus is addressing a group of Jews talking about the bread of life, and he says

John 6

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

As you can see, Jesus is saying that man does not have the ability to come to him unless the father draws them first. This is a reference to having been chosen by God.

Let's look at what happens in Genesis 6.

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.

9 This is the account of Noah and his family.

Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God. 10 Noah had three sons: Shem, Ham and Japheth.

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth. 14 So make yourself an ark of cypress[c] wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. 15 This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be three hundred cubits long, fifty cubits wide and thirty cubits high.[d] 16 Make a roof for it, leaving below the roof an opening one cubit[e] high all around.[f] Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks.

Notice here the language is clear that Noah did not have any foreknowledge of what was about to happen to the world. Nor did he have any knowledge prior to the occurrence that God would choose to preserve mankind through him. He did not choose to build an Ark so much as God chose Noah to build the Ark. This is a pattern that is established over and over again in scripture. We can dispute the nature of what that choosing is and the nature of the chosen, but it's an unescapable theme. You are right to say that in the dynamic between God and Noah and the construction of the Ark that the relationship of Choser:Chosen is God:Noah.

Eph 1.5 shows predestination is for believers not lost people . Adoption is not conversion but Rom 8.23 .

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

What does it mean that Noah "found" grace or "found" favor? Favor didn't exist physically and Noah happened upon it. It's a description of the change that occurred with regard to God and Noah's relationship to one another. Noah in this case "finds" favor because it is something that he did not merit nor deserve by his own accomplishments, but that God Chose to favor Noah.

Consider this definition from Merriam-Webster. Remember that "found" is a past tense of the root "find"

View attachment 223598

Notice 1a and 1b are rather similar, but with a slight nuance. The word found in Genesis 6 is not annotating in any way that Noah has done something to acquire the favor of God. He walked faithfully, and was a righteous man.. even blameless among the people of his time as verse 9 says... but again, notice.. this is not what merited having found favor with God.

Okay, let's see what the scripture saith.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

First, we can see in verse 2 the focus of this portion of the chapter is on Justification not on how someone arrives to faith. Statement in verse three about crediting righteousness is not saying that Abraham believed first and then God chose him. It is saying that Justification, or the "declaring of being righteous before God" is done so legally and in coherence with God's nature on the basis of Abraham's faith. Notice here again we see that justification is given to Abraham by God. It does not mean that God saves Abraham because of Abraham's faith.

This is a great time to point out that elsewhere in scripture where the mechanics of salvation are discussed that's again established that not only is faith something that God gives us, but repentance itself is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

God granted Abraham faith and repentance. It is through Abraham's faith that God can legally credit to Abraham's account righteousness without which he wouldn't be able to be "right with God."

Honestly after reviewing this one I really don't see how it fits into any of your argument. Could you please expound on this scripture as to how it might lead one to think God does not choose? Thank you!

Yes, God saves those that believe.

1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Notice here that even in the scripture you quote we again see this assertion by the scriptures that God is the prime mover of salvation. God saves people through their faith and not because of their faith. It's a small distinction but an important one.

Do you think the modern translation your using is correct to say that the ' message ' is foolishness? I think not . 1 cor 1.21 .

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

What does it mean that Noah "found" grace or "found" favor? Favor didn't exist physically and Noah happened upon it. It's a description of the change that occurred with regard to God and Noah's relationship to one another. Noah in this case "finds" favor because it is something that he did not merit nor deserve by his own accomplishments, but that God Chose to favor Noah.

Consider this definition from Merriam-Webster. Remember that "found" is a past tense of the root "find"

View attachment 223598

Notice 1a and 1b are rather similar, but with a slight nuance. The word found in Genesis 6 is not annotating in any way that Noah has done something to acquire the favor of God. He walked faithfully, and was a righteous man.. even blameless among the people of his time as verse 9 says... but again, notice.. this is not what merited having found favor with God.

Okay, let's see what the scripture saith.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

First, we can see in verse 2 the focus of this portion of the chapter is on Justification not on how someone arrives to faith. Statement in verse three about crediting righteousness is not saying that Abraham believed first and then God chose him. It is saying that Justification, or the "declaring of being righteous before God" is done so legally and in coherence with God's nature on the basis of Abraham's faith. Notice here again we see that justification is given to Abraham by God. It does not mean that God saves Abraham because of Abraham's faith.

This is a great time to point out that elsewhere in scripture where the mechanics of salvation are discussed that's again established that not only is faith something that God gives us, but repentance itself is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

God granted Abraham faith and repentance. It is through Abraham's faith that God can legally credit to Abraham's account righteousness without which he wouldn't be able to be "right with God."

Honestly after reviewing this one I really don't see how it fits into any of your argument. Could you please expound on this scripture as to how it might lead one to think God does not choose? Thank you!

Yes, God saves those that believe.

1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Notice here that even in the scripture you quote we again see this assertion by the scriptures that God is the prime mover of salvation. God saves people through their faith and not because of their faith. It's a small distinction but an important one.

I would say Noah knew .
Hebrews 11
7¶By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

What does it mean that Noah "found" grace or "found" favor? Favor didn't exist physically and Noah happened upon it. It's a description of the change that occurred with regard to God and Noah's relationship to one another. Noah in this case "finds" favor because it is something that he did not merit nor deserve by his own accomplishments, but that God Chose to favor Noah.

Consider this definition from Merriam-Webster. Remember that "found" is a past tense of the root "find"

View attachment 223598

Notice 1a and 1b are rather similar, but with a slight nuance. The word found in Genesis 6 is not annotating in any way that Noah has done something to acquire the favor of God. He walked faithfully, and was a righteous man.. even blameless among the people of his time as verse 9 says... but again, notice.. this is not what merited having found favor with God.

Okay, let's see what the scripture saith.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[a]

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[b]

First, we can see in verse 2 the focus of this portion of the chapter is on Justification not on how someone arrives to faith. Statement in verse three about crediting righteousness is not saying that Abraham believed first and then God chose him. It is saying that Justification, or the "declaring of being righteous before God" is done so legally and in coherence with God's nature on the basis of Abraham's faith. Notice here again we see that justification is given to Abraham by God. It does not mean that God saves Abraham because of Abraham's faith.

This is a great time to point out that elsewhere in scripture where the mechanics of salvation are discussed that's again established that not only is faith something that God gives us, but repentance itself is a gift from God.

2 Timothy 2
22 Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

God granted Abraham faith and repentance. It is through Abraham's faith that God can legally credit to Abraham's account righteousness without which he wouldn't be able to be "right with God."

Honestly after reviewing this one I really don't see how it fits into any of your argument. Could you please expound on this scripture as to how it might lead one to think God does not choose? Thank you!

Yes, God saves those that believe.

1 Corinthians 1
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Notice here that even in the scripture you quote we again see this assertion by the scriptures that God is the prime mover of salvation. God saves people through their faith and not because of their faith. It's a small distinction but an important one.

In your chart i agree with some points there . I realise however some of those points sound good on the surface but once you scratch the calvinistic surface , not so good . There is no such thing as Election to salvation in the bible . This is Augustines philosophy which John Calvin furthered.
God purchased the entire field on the cross ,so to speak . ( Matthew 13 .44 )

I agree with the ' Gospel call ' but reject irresistible/ previenient grace.
Grace is a ubiquitous reality, not a selective force. (Tit. 2:11-13)

Grace is just fine on it’s own as it’s found in scripture. Any modifier other than “free,” such as “sovereign,” “irresistible,” or “prevenient” indicate someone is either confused or attempting to confuse. (Rom. 3:24; 5:15; Jn. 1:16; Tit. 2:11-13)

Yes God makes alive . But Faith is the prerequisite to receiving Jesus . John 1.12

Yes man changes his mind and believes .

Agree on Justification.

Disagree on ' Adoption ' . This is were the me centred western thinking gets in the way of simply believing Rom 8.23 ,Eph 1.5 as it reads .
We do not become a child of God through the Adoption. The Adoption is as explained in Rom 8.23 . The calvinst spin on this is the ' already not yet ' post hoc rationalization nonsense to avoid the plain reading of Rom 8.23 .

Sanctification and perseverance unfortunately for calvinists comes under the snare of ' Lorship salvation ' which is unbiblical.

Yes Glorification is the Adoption as described in Rom 8.23 as the redemption of the body.

CS1 · Dec 15, 2020

MyrtleTrees said:

The issue is really two: ill-effective discipleship and lack of biblical understanding

The context of Roman 10:8-10

:8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” that is, the word of faith which we preach):
:9" that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. :10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation

Paul is saying from verse 8 not what you said but what is in your heart that caused you to confess " Faith in the death burial and resurrection. Why did you confess? Because you heard the Gospel message of Christ was convicted and repented which caused you to believe and confess.

Believe it is not a mental acknowledgment that God is real " demons believe and tremble ", but it is a Belief that causes an action in the faith which is clearly seen by a lost world the Lord Jesus Christ in you.

The gospel message is preached, the Holy Spirit moves upon the heart of the hearer, creating a godly sorrow to see their need to be saved. Then they :
1. repent 2. surrender your life 3. receive from the Lord grace for eternal life.

Is the Holy Spirit who helps the believer understand Jesus is Lord and this confession is understood only in the regenerated life of the born-again believer.

In Roman's chapter 10 we see verse 9 saying confess with your mouth believe in your heart. but is verse 10 is reversed
with the Heart Believe and confess unto salvation

the change that happens in the life, causes one to confess. Out of the Heart, the Mouth speaks.

Paul is speaking here from a Jews understanding, not a greek one.

God in the Old Testament deals with the heart of the of man, new Testament Greeks dealt with the intellect the mind of man.

Paul has brought contrast to this mindset of the Greeks. Paul said the things of God are spiritually discerned 1cor 2:14.

the changed mind the MIND of Christ understands who Jesus is and accept it by faith which will produce action:

.1 have faith 2. to believe3. to confess out of the heart 4. to receive from the Lord.

OIC1965 · Dec 15, 2020

Reformed1689 said:

Where does scripture say anything like that?

Let's look at Romans 8.

Romans 8

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[i] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Notice here in Romans 8 we have the "process" of salvation beginning not with someone's predestination, or even their repentance. God does not look down the corridors of time hoping to catch a glimpse of whether we've been naught or nice so he can decide our eternal salvation. In this case God doesn't actually have any power over salvation and simply makes him a ceremonial King like the monarch of the UK. It is actually what makes God who he is (his attributes) that makes salvation possible through his power (omniscience). God not only has the power to save us, but he has the knowledge to do so. His foreknowledge of us is not dependent upon us, but is actually a more intimate knowing of us that is the driving force in the chain of salvation. He foreknows his flock, and he predestines his flock. The flock does not choose its own shepherd.

John 10
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Notice here Jesus say that his sheep (us) know his voice and it is because we know his voice that we follow him. The question remains though, how did we (the sheep) come to know him?

Matthew 13

Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

Notice here in Matthew 13 when Jesus is asked why he speaks in parables he says it's because he doesn't want some of the people present to hear. He then quotes from Isaiah a curse that God gave where he stated he would not let the people hear or see the truth specifically because if they did see and hear it would lead to their salvation.

Isaiah 6
8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.” 9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people:

“‘Keep on hearing,[c] but do not understand;
keep on seeing,[d] but do not perceive.’
10 Make the heart of this people dull,[e]
and their ears heavy,
and blind their eyes;
lest they see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “How long, O Lord?”
And he said:
“Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is a desolate waste,
12 and the Lord removes people far away,
and the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
13 And though a tenth remain in it,
it will be burned[f] again,
like a terebinth or an oak,
whose stump remains
when it is felled.”
The holy seed[g] is its stump.

Isaiah 6 describes a terrible judgement of not only physical destruction but spiritual outcast.

i was being facetious.

OIC1965 · Dec 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

We don’t preach that to the lost. We teach the deep things of God to the mature. 1 Corinthians 2.

OIC1965 · Dec 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

Did He know who they would be?

OIC1965 · Dec 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

You say and claim I’m bringing boogeyman argumentation, because I point out that your arguments tend towards open theism and then you bring up the boogeyman of Gnosticism. The hypocrisy of that is stunning.

So since you said this, I will say I’m defending the truth of God’s omniscience, not your position which I doubt anyone in the history of the church has ever held until the last several decades.

Prove me wrong. Give me the earliest example you have of a reputable Bible scholar teaching your position.

Magenta · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

I knew that

That's why I laughed at your post

The word sardonic came to mind also, but I knew that wasn't quite it

OIC1965 · Dec 15, 2020

throughfaith said:

Even Leighton Flowers, whom you quote a lot, agrees that Gods knowledge and Sovereinty over salvation extends to individuals, not just corporately, which is basically the position I have taken and which you have argued against.

See article 7 of the Baptist Faith and Message” which Leighton confesses to believe.

Article 7 “ we affirm God’s eternal knowledge and sovereignty over each person’s salvation or condemnation.

Your view is extreme. Not even Leighton Flowers holds it.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

Not as a son until we get in Christ .

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

I rarely quote another believer unless to show a more articular explanation of something I'm trying to say.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

You say and claim I’m bringing boogeyman argumentation, because I point out that your arguments tend towards open theism and then you bring up the boogeyman of Gnosticism. The hypocrisy of that is stunning.

So since you said this, I will say I’m defending the truth of God’s omniscience, not your position which I doubt anyone in the history of the church has ever held until the last several decades.

Prove me wrong. Give me the earliest example you have of a reputable Bible scholar teaching your position.

I don't hold to things that rigidly on what is not explicitly given in the bible.

throughfaith · Dec 15, 2020

OIC1965 said:

I don't think leighton holds to individuals ( personally ) being hand picked before they exist ,to be saved later on through previenient grace, as you hold to .

Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"

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