Lordship salvation vs. "easy believism"
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Eph 1.5 . Paul is telling already saved believers in Christ that along with all the blessings that come in christ , is also that they are predestined to the adoption . This is not Paul telling those in christ that they were predestined to be converted . But rather to the Adoption ,WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED YET .
Likewise in Romans . Even inspite of a tenuous connection to " oh were gradually being conformed to the image of christ day ,by day ,a little like Jesus every day " ..No the ' being conformed to his image is also referring to a future occurance . The Adoption. The blessed hope . whilst those who think they have been elected to be saved are spending their lives wondering if they are ( by their works ,) Those that understand the bible saying that Election is to service and purpose . Predestination is to the future Adoption have scripture for this ,and are resting on the promises of predestination being the Guranteed future glorification.
Likewise in Romans . Even inspite of a tenuous connection to " oh were gradually being conformed to the image of christ day ,by day ,a little like Jesus every day " ..No the ' being conformed to his image is also referring to a future occurance . The Adoption. The blessed hope . whilst those who think they have been elected to be saved are spending their lives wondering if they are ( by their works ,) Those that understand the bible saying that Election is to service and purpose . Predestination is to the future Adoption have scripture for this ,and are resting on the promises of predestination being the Guranteed future glorification.
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
Eph 1.5 . Paul is telling already saved believers in Christ that along with all the blessings that come in christ , is also that they are predestined to the adoption . This is not Paul telling those in christ that they were predestined to be converted . But rather to the Adoption ,WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED YET .
Likewise in Romans . Even inspite of a tenuous connection to " oh were gradually being conformed to the image of christ day ,by day ,a little like Jesus every day " ..No the ' being conformed to his image is also referring to a future occurance . The Adoption. The blessed hope . whilst those who think they have been elected to be saved are spending their lives wondering if they are ( by their works ,) Those that understand the bible saying that Election is to service and purpose . Predestination is to the future Adoption have scripture for this ,and are resting on the promises of predestination being the Guranteed future glorification.
Likewise in Romans . Even inspite of a tenuous connection to " oh were gradually being conformed to the image of christ day ,by day ,a little like Jesus every day " ..No the ' being conformed to his image is also referring to a future occurance . The Adoption. The blessed hope . whilst those who think they have been elected to be saved are spending their lives wondering if they are ( by their works ,) Those that understand the bible saying that Election is to service and purpose . Predestination is to the future Adoption have scripture for this ,and are resting on the promises of predestination being the Guranteed future glorification.
But where does it say predestination is after conversion
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
But where does it say predestination is after conversion
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
It makes perfect sense for Paul ,in keeping with the entire focus of ephesians, in telling them of all the blessings they NOW have in light of being IN CHRIST JESUS ..Blessings including guaranteed future adoption to come .
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
It makes perfect sense for Paul ,in keeping with the entire focus of ephesians, in telling them of all the blessings they NOW have in light of being IN CHRIST JESUS ..Blessings including guaranteed future adoption to come .
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
There is NOTHING about God’s ACTIONS of foreknowing and predestinating or electing in your proof texts.
Your argument utterly fails.
It makes perfect sense for Paul ,in keeping with the entire focus of ephesians, in telling them of all the blessings they NOW have in light of being IN CHRIST JESUS ..Blessings including guaranteed future adoption to come .
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Romans 8
23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
1 John 3:2-3
King James Version
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Your proof texts say nothing about God electing or predestining. ( active verbs.). Since we’re talking about God’s works or what He does, you should use verses where a. God is the subject b. the verb is in active voice, ie God is the one performing the action, and c. The verb is predestinate.
Just a little heads up about how to address verbs in which God is the one who is acting.
It says WHAT we are predestined to . Rom 8 .23 . Sinners are not predestined.
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
These passages do not address a time frame for predestination. The only passages that give a frame of reference are Ephesians 1 and Romans 8:29-30.
Question : When did you get in him ?
Your answer should be " when i believed ' . The conclusion then is that's when you recieved all the blessings. Including ' Predestined to Adoption ' . Eph 1 . 5 , Rom 8.23 . To imagine you had blessings outside of Christ ,before he came and died on a cross is not Christianity.
Those who die lost were not, never were elect or predestined because they were not foreknown. (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:1-2).
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
Those who die lost were not, never were elect or predestined because they were not foreknown. (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:1-2).
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
Those who die lost were not, never were elect or predestined because they were not foreknown. (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:1-2).
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
See how simple it is when you let scripture speak for itself?
This should answer all your objections.
Where does the Bible say “when” we are predestined?
Everything about Ephesians is focused on IN HIM .
Question : When did you get in him ?
Your answer should be " when i believed ' . The conclusion then is that's when you recieved all the blessings. Including ' Predestined to Adoption ' . Eph 1 . 5 , Rom 8.23 . To imagine you had blessings outside of Christ ,before he came and died on a cross is not Christianity.
Question : When did you get in him ?
Your answer should be " when i believed ' . The conclusion then is that's when you recieved all the blessings. Including ' Predestined to Adoption ' . Eph 1 . 5 , Rom 8.23 . To imagine you had blessings outside of Christ ,before he came and died on a cross is not Christianity.
For example, in Ephesians 3:11
But where does it say predestination is after conversion
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
To say that...
A. because what we are predestined to is largely yet future,
B. that it necessarily follows that God’s act of predestining us follows/comes after our faith
is a grand non-sequitur
Here is your argument
A. Paul is writing to people already saved
B. He is telling them that they are predestined to something that is future
C. Therefore they were not predestined until they believed.
A and b are correct,but c does not necessarily follow from them. It is a non sequiturs argument.
It looks at the doctrine of predestination SOLELY from man’s side, and doesn’t say anything about when God predestinated them.
There is nothing in a and b that answers the question of when.
Suppose I intended to adopt a infant son and give all my wealth to him when He grew up. This purpose of mine did not necessarily pop into my mind after I adopted him. I first intended to adopt him and then I had to actively adopt him. And I may have purposed the whole thing before I adopted him.
The plan and intention existed before the actions
Seeing that God knows all things, He knows who He will adopt before they are saved
And seeing that He is not so imperfect in knowledge that things must happen before He can know them, He always knew. Otherwise, you have God learning and increasing in knowledge.
Your view of God is of a God who is wholly dependent on man.
By adding ' foreknown ' you can literally make the bible say anything. No one is blessed with anything until they are in christ . Your just promoting soft calvinism . Instead of unconditional election you have ' foreknowledge ' election . Its Jacob Arminius compromise to the equally false idea about election and Predestination Augustine dreamed up and John Calvin promoted.
I’ve already answered this objection numerous times. As I’ve said, check the range of usage for the phrase “in Christ”, “ in Jesus”, and “in Him”. It doesn’t always refer to a locative position.
For example, in Ephesians 3:11
For example, in Ephesians 3:11