Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

[presidente]

All I am saying is that you are doing it outside and against the directions of the Scriptures......PEROID!

On the contrary, the scriptures say to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, to covet to prophesy, to forbid not to speak with tongues, to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. They say to quench not the Spirit; despise prophesyings; hold fast to that which is good. It is unfortunately that cessationism leads to disobedience to scriptures written to the church. The scriptures do not direct as you teach in this thread.

There are ZERO Scriptures that give directions of any kind of Apostolic succession....NONE!

What does that have to do with the topic of the discussion? 'Apostolic succession' is the idea that priests and bishops were ordained by bishops going back to the apostles.

There is NO proof whatsoever that YOU were included with the ELEVEN Apostles who stood in front of Jesus 2000 years and received the Sign Gifts.

Nor is this a relevant point. Mark 16 speaks of the apostles preaching and them that believe doing miracles.

 

[jb]

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Christians who say that spiritual gifts are not for today are really unwilling to seek God for those gifts; they refuse to submit to the experience that God desires to give them. They are not prepared to accept the full Scriptural standard, or the Lordship or wisdom of Christ over these spiritual gifts. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, would in reality totally remove God's influence from His Church. If God only works through His word today, as some insist, there is no point in the ministries of the Holy Spirit at all. Paul clearly states in 1Cor 12v21, that we cannot say that we have no need of these ministries and gifts, they are all essential, if Christ's body is to function as He intends. It is only difficult for Christians to witness effectively if God's gifts and ministries are missing.

Some would say, “I believe in God's power and influence, but how can you be sure that you will get the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit?” We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing. Indeed, the Scriptures emphatically state that it is only by seeking God for His power and gifts that we can be spiritually safe, and successfully resist the Devil, we certainly can't outwit or defeat Satan on our own. Psalm 24v3-6, 27v1-14, 42v1-11, 46v10, 62v1,2, Acts 1v14, 2v42, 3v1, 4v29-33, 6v2-4, 8v14-17, 9v11,12, 10v2,9-20, 12v5,12, 13v1-4, etc. Eph 6v10-20, James 4v7-10, 1Pet 5v5-11. etc. Those who refuse to seek God's power for fear of receiving some false spirit, have in reality already been defeated by Satan, and have shown a lack of faith in God's ability to care for His children. Satan kept Israel out of Canaan through fear and unbelief; they could not trust God to look after them. Indeed, the Scriptures reveal that it has always been those who have failed to seek God for His blessing and spiritual gifts, who have been influenced by evil spirits. Heb 3 and 4.

 

[notuptome]

Well......I'm still speaking in tongues, seeing visions and having dreams.....

Perhaps I did not get the "Memo".........

Come on!!! Open your eyes and hearts and mind....ALL the signs will INCREASE as the END draws near! It's absolutely CRAZY to say all the "signs" ceased!

When they return it will be in the great tribulation. The church will be in the presence of Christ in heaven and it will be Jewish witnesses that will be declaring the glories of God.

"unintelligible noises" is EXACTLY how Satan would describe the Gift of Tongues that a Believer has been given....hmmmmm probably because the Holy Spirit is speaking secrets and the kingdom of darkness cannot intercept the message or interfere in what God is doing.........

Complete deception. Just like what the serpent said to Eve. Look it's good. God surely did not say it was ended. How did that work out?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

I was pointing out your inconsistent reasoning. If that seems childish to you, maybe you are not mature enough in your reasoning to see the problem. You are the one playing games with words.

Insulting much? I'm just pointing out that you are not being precise in your use of words.

I'm not sure if you demonstrate the same rude smugness about being wrong in your own church that you do online, but I suspect some group somewhere tolerates you.

Folks in the church I attend are not resistant to the word of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmmmm. Did not seem like it to me

That’s because you assumed things

i just asked you a question and you assumed things which were not true instead of answering the question

 

[Dino246]

In all Christian love and respect, be careful and stay safe.

Given that you both "liked" Roger's post in which he insulted me "for the cause of Christ", and that in response to that post, you stated to him, "Correct and Biblical response", your "In all Christian love and respect" is empty and hollow, and your understanding of those terms is questionable at best.

I see no reason to interact with you further.

 

[Dino246]

That’s because you assumed things

i just asked you a question and you assumed things which were not true instead of answering the question

E-G, I frequently agree with you, but not this time. Throwing blame is not the way to resolve a dispute. Please, let it go.

 

[awelight]

It's the other way around. An experience is confirmed by scripture. After we come to follow Christ, we are to be led by the Holy Spirit. It sounds like you only trust your 5 senses, yet our walk is a spiritual one.

I think your response was to the wrong person. I agree with you, experiences would always have to be authenticated by Scripture.

 

[awelight]

I can appreciate that. But if that is the case, then I wonder why you attacked my desire to know the truth rather than dealing with the grammatical issue up front.



I appreciate when Greek and Hebrew scholars, in spite of their seminary or university's agenda or their own personal biases are willing to admit when the language is inconclusive. I think this is one of those cases.



I find the idea that the use of the third class conditional as evidence that Paul was saying or implying that he did not speak in the tongues of angels to be rather lacking considering its use in Hebrews 4:13, etc.



I think you are coming at it from the wrong angle. I am always suspicious of the type of reasoning that says, 'Word X is ambiguous between meanings A and B. If Paul had used word Y, then we would be certain then we would be certain be meant A. But he used X, so he did not mean A. ' Sorry if that takes a bit of concentration to digest. But I do not see Paul as coming down definitely on one side or another here in I Corinthians 13, just suggesting a possibility, like an 'if' statement renders it in English. If Hebrews 4:13 does not prove that the author is convinced that the readers would remain steadfast in their confidence to the end, then it does not stand to reason to interpret I Corinthians 13:1 must mean that Paul is saying that he definitely did not speak in the tongues of men and of angels.

I also gather that the KJV's, 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' is an inaccurate translation.

I can use this...'Why didn't Paul say something more clear and definitive' argument to ask you why, if your interpretation is correct, that Paul did not use the second class conditional and make it clear that he did not speak in the tongues of men and of angels.

In I Corinthians 14, Paul contrasts praying in tongues with praying with his mind. If he did not know what language he spoke, he might not know if it were a tongue of men and of angels.

The way you presented the third class conditional as the most uncertain.... could be misconstrued to go beyond a description of a grammatical category to have semantic meanings that might be unjustified.

Can we both agree that 'If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels' (or if we use 'languages' there) that this is a fairly accurate representation of the Greek? Paul does not say that he is speaking in tongues of men and of angels or that he is not in this particular phrase, but saying _if_ he did.

It still appears that you are attempting to water down the true meaning of what Paul said, However I will agree that the use of the word "IF" at the beginning of the sentence is a proper way to translate the Greek word εαν.

You through me off with the reference to Heb. 4:13. I assume you were meaning Heb. 3:14 - "For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;" (KJV) or "for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:" (RSV) The RSV is the better translation in this case, staying closer to the Greek Text.

I am not sure how you are looking at this verse. The verse should be understood in two parts:

1) "for we are become partakers of Christ - The Greek word translated "are become" is γεγοναμεν, it is a Verb - Perfect tense, Active in voice and in the Indicative mood. The perfect tense is very important here. You have a permanent standing or state. It means that some time in the past, "you have become" a partaker of Christ with continuing results into the future. The Indicative mood is the mood of reality. Therefore, this is a very reassuring statement. However, the writer places a condition on this statement:

2) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:" The above reassurance (..."we have become"...), is only true "IF" this condition proves itself out. It is a third class conditional statement led by the Greek word εανπερ (If), which is a compound word made up of: ἐάν (meaning: If) and περ (meaning: Indeed, Very or Much). The best translation then would be "If indeed". Now let's look at the other verb in this verse. The Greek word κατασχωμεν, a compound Verb - Aorist tense, Active voice and in the Subjunctive mood. It is properly translated in the RSV, "...we hold fast...". The Aorist tense is looking at the past with the possible results (holding fast), continuing into the future but is not certain. This uncertainty is magnified by the verb being in the Subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility. Often times rendered with the English word "may or shall" in front of the meaning to emphasis this mood but not always, such as here. Now let's put all this together. The verses would look like this:

"for we have become partakers of Christ, if indeed we may hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end:"

Since the writer was concerned with unbelief in the immediate context proceeding verse 14 - Heb. 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God:, Here in verse 14 he gives assurance based on ones "holding fast" but leaves the door open that all may not be true believers. As such, they would not be found holding fast at the end. He follows this thought with verse 15 which bids the question - Heb. 3:15 while it is said, Today if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. - will you hear His voice and not harden your heart?

Therefore, it is clear that there is "uncertainty" in verse 12, there is "uncertainty" in verse 14 and again in verse 15. This being the case, I see no way that this verse, 3:14, helps your case what so ever in 1 Cor. 13:1-3. Matter of fact it proves my case.

One additional comment on verse 14. While the writer sets a conditional clause behind "having become partakers of Christ", the Scriptures throughout teach that what God starts He will bring to a successful conclusion, (Philippians 1:6). Every "born again" believer will be carried by Christ to the finish line.

 

[Major]

Given that you both "liked" Roger's post in which he insulted me "for the cause of Christ", and that in response to that post, you stated to him, "Correct and Biblical response", your "In all Christian love and respect" is empty and hollow, and your understanding of those terms is questionable at best.

I see no reason to interact with you further.

Of course I would suggest that for proper context, what you stated o him first be considered but I agree!

 

[Major]

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Christians who say that spiritual gifts are not for today are really unwilling to seek God for those gifts; they refuse to submit to the experience that God desires to give them. They are not prepared to accept the full Scriptural standard, or the Lordship or wisdom of Christ over these spiritual gifts. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, would in reality totally remove God's influence from His Church. If God only works through His word today, as some insist, there is no point in the ministries of the Holy Spirit at all. Paul clearly states in 1Cor 12v21, that we cannot say that we have no need of these ministries and gifts, they are all essential, if Christ's body is to function as He intends. It is only difficult for Christians to witness effectively if God's gifts and ministries are missing.

Some would say, “I believe in God's power and influence, but how can you be sure that you will get the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit?” We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing. Indeed, the Scriptures emphatically state that it is only by seeking God for His power and gifts that we can be spiritually safe, and successfully resist the Devil, we certainly can't outwit or defeat Satan on our own. Psalm 24v3-6, 27v1-14, 42v1-11, 46v10, 62v1,2, Acts 1v14, 2v42, 3v1, 4v29-33, 6v2-4, 8v14-17, 9v11,12, 10v2,9-20, 12v5,12, 13v1-4, etc. Eph 6v10-20, James 4v7-10, 1Pet 5v5-11. etc. Those who refuse to seek God's power for fear of receiving some false spirit, have in reality already been defeated by Satan, and have shown a lack of faith in God's ability to care for His children. Satan kept Israel out of Canaan through fear and unbelief; they could not trust God to look after them. Indeed, the Scriptures reveal that it has always been those who have failed to seek God for His blessing and spiritual gifts, who have been influenced by evil spirits. Heb 3 and 4.

I for one agree and that is exactly what I have stated.

The Sign Gifts given by Christ to the Apostles ended when the past Apostles died. There are in my opinion no Sign Gifts able to be performed today simply because there are NO Apostles today.

That does not mean however that God does not heal through the prayers offered by believers as recorded in James 5.

 

[awelight]

I'm thinking of a line in a hymn, 'How I've proved Him 'ore and 'ore.' Is it wrong to sing that?

Doesn't the psalmist model appealing to experience when he writes in Psalm 37:
"25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread."?

And was Peter wrong to write the following?
I Peter 2:3
If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.


Paul does not treat experience as a bad thing either. It is presented in a positive light in Romans 5.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

It is a normal thing for a Christian who walks in the faith to find the teachings of the Bible to be true in his or her own life, and it is a good thing to testify to that to others.

I do occasionally see cessationists arguing that certain spiritual gifts have ceased based on the fact that they have not experienced these gifts in their own life experience. Lack of experience is no basis for doctrine. But experience that confirms the word of God is a good thing.

Yes all believers and non-believers have experiences. When a believer experiences something that is taught in Scripture - such as the New Birth (John 3:1-10), then this experience is constituted as experiential knowledge. To put it another way: It is one thing to have head knowledge of a subject, quite another to have experienced it.

However, experiences never, never, never prove Scripture!!!!!!!! ALL experiences are weighed and judged by Scripture as to whether are not they are from God.

If a person claims a prophetical message, then that message must be weighed against the revelation of God in Scripture. Any belief to the contrary is heresy.

If a person claims to be able to speak in a language not formerly known by the speaker, the language must still follow legitimate linguistic patterns. The ecstatic utterances I have witnessed are pure gibberish. What they speak does not harmonize with Scripture and therefore can not have it's origins in the Holy Spirit. They either have their roots in the energy of the flesh or in the energy of the Devil.

One could go on like this for pages but what would be the point?

 

[Major]

"unintelligible noises" is EXACTLY how Satan would describe the Gift of Tongues that a Believer has been given....hmmmmm probably because the Holy Spirit is speaking secrets and the kingdom of darkness cannot intercept the message or interfere in what God is doing.........

I do not accept the opinion that believers are given the gifts on tongues today.

I do however believe that a lot of people "Fake" tongues simply because they can and they want to.

Allow me to ask a really simple question. IF tongues which are in the Greek correctly translated as LANGUAGES, why does the Assembly of God denomination require ALL of their missionaries to be able to speak the language of the country they are going to?????

Wouldn't the gift of tongues simply be able to be applied no matter what language is spoken in any country?????

 

[Major]

On the contrary, the scriptures say to earnestly desire spiritual gifts, to covet to prophesy, to forbid not to speak with tongues, to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. They say to quench not the Spirit; despise prophesyings; hold fast to that which is good. It is unfortunately that cessationism leads to disobedience to scriptures written to the church. The scriptures do not direct as you teach in this thread.



What does that have to do with the topic of the discussion? 'Apostolic succession' is the idea that priests and bishops were ordained by bishops going back to the apostles.



Nor is this a relevant point. Mark 16 speaks of the apostles preaching and them that believe doing miracles.

Again........you are arguing apples to oranges and you are stating what YOU want to believe and are ignoring the linguistic Greek.

Spiritual gifts are NOT THE SIGN GIFTS as recorded in Mark 16. Mark 16 is actually about the GIFTS given by Christ to the ELEVEN as written in Mark 16 and is the only place in the Scripture where they are found.

WHY in the world do you insist that that is not relevant????

Not only is it realavent.....it is absolutely required!!!

Why try to teach Bible doctrine... Obviously because some do not accept Bible doctrine hence the errors we see today on this very thread.

"Apostolic Succession" is a tradition instituted by the RCC and IS NOT BIBLICAL. Again I say to you.....there is not one single verse in the Scriptures that suggest an ongoing Apostolic office after the ELEVEN seen in Mark 16.

Anything see today is a fabrication of the minds of men who want to speak in tongues and hold an office that Biblically does not exist.

 

[awelight]

Either you misunderstood me, which is possible, or you and I are about as far apart on this issue as we can be.

While we should not seek mere experiences for their own sake, what we do experience should indeed line up with what Scripture is teaching us. If it doesn't, something is wrong.

For example (from the perspective of a hypothetical newer believer): Scripture tells me that God will provide for my needs. If my needs (genuine, not frivolous) are consistently not being met, and I cannot discern any earthly reason for it, then I begin to wonder whether Scripture is true. The nature of the human heart is not the issue; either there is food to eat, or there is not. If I can't see evidence in the real world for God's existence and activity, why would I trust Him with things I can't see and can barely comprehend?

On the contrary, and I have heard many testimonies that align with this, God provides for His children in unexpected, surprising, and even miraculous ways. Cheques show up in the mail at the last minute, strangers drop off meals, bills are reduced or eliminated, an acquaintance gives you a car when you need it most, and on, and on, and on. God is not opposed to His children seeking Him for their needs, and He is still in the business of providing for them.

Scripture tells me that God has given His children certain gifts, and I believe Him. When real-world experiences occur, and I see that they are in line with what Scripture teaches, my belief in Scripture is confirmed. I don't seek to confirm Scripture with experience, but I allow experience to confirm Scripture. There's a big difference.

Thanks for the clarification. Can agree with about 80% of your post. One question - you seem to imply that you would have doubts about God if you did not see experiences that are taught in Scripture, ie... God taking care of His own but why are your statements about the physical needs? It is nice that God helps us in those areas but the real important issues are in our spiritual life. The uplifting of the soul. The preparation of us for eternity.

If I died tomorrow - then so be it. Whether that be from famine, disease or murder. This will only hasten my being with the Lord. This is one of the big problems for so many Charismatics who cling to a "Prosperity Gospel". Kenneth Copeland, saying: "You can have your best life now." I don't want my best life now - I want it in eternity with the Lord. These people taking passages of Scripture like: Isa. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed - and making it about physical healing and blessing, when the context of the Scripture is purely about healing our transgressions against God. Establishing righteousness and forgiving of sins. There is no promise here of physical well being. This kind of abuse of Scripture makes me ILL.

 

[Budman]

To those who claim to possess these gifts today; Why are you not going to hospitals and clearing them out? Why are you not raising the dead for grieving loved ones? Why are you not prophesying extra- biblical events that have been verified as coming to pass? When have you done things "even greater" than Jesus did?

I say shame on you for allowing so many to die from Covid-19 when you could have went out and healed them.

 

[Dino246]

Thanks for the clarification. Can agree with about 80% of your post. One question - you seem to imply that you would have doubts about God if you did not see experiences that are taught in Scripture, ie... God taking care of His own but why are your statements about the physical needs? It is nice that God helps us in those areas but the real important issues are in our spiritual life. The uplifting of the soul. The preparation of us for eternity.

If I died tomorrow - then so be it. Whether that be from famine, disease or murder. This will only hasten my being with the Lord. This is one of the big problems for so many Charismatics who cling to a "Prosperity Gospel". Kenneth Copeland, saying: "You can have your best life now." I don't want my best life now - I want it in eternity with the Lord. These people taking passages of Scripture like: Isa. 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed - and making it about physical healing and blessing, when the context of the Scripture is purely about healing our transgressions against God. Establishing righteousness and forgiving of sins. There is no promise here of physical well being. This kind of abuse of Scripture makes me ILL.

Hey, well 80% is progress!

The example I used was from the perspective of a new believer, not my own perspective. My faith is solid, and was before I experienced anything miraculous. However, the miraculous events that I have experienced confirm what I already knew from Scripture.

All of the gifts discussed in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans are for this life. We will have no need of prophecy, tongues, healing, teaching, administration, helps, apostles, etc. in the eternal kingdom. Using physical needs as examples only puts the whole issue into practical terms.

BTW, I have no time for Kenneth Copeland or the like, and I don't hold to the "prosperity gospel".

 

[jb]

To those who claim to possess these gifts today; Why are you not going to hospitals and clearing them out? Why are you not raising the dead for grieving loved ones? Why are you not prophesying extra- biblical events that have been verified as coming to pass? When have you done things "even greater" than Jesus did?

I say shame on you for allowing so many to die from Covid-19 when you could have went out and healed them.

Well did Paul speak about unbelievers like you!

"having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!"

2Tim 3v5

 

[awelight]

Those who insist that spiritual gifts and spiritual ministries have ceased and are not for today, must, if they are to be consistent, insist that God has removed them all, and not just some of them. If they really believe that spiritual gifts are not for today, how is it that they pray for Divine healing? For this is a gift of healing. How is it that they pray for illumination upon a problem, or guidance from God? For this is a word of wisdom. How is it that they pray for ministers of the Gospel to receive the Holy Spirit's anointing? and for Satan's power to be lifted off people? and for people to be blessed? For these are the operations of the gift of faith. How is it that they pray for material needs to be met? For this is the province of the working of miracles. How is it that they pray for a revelation of God to the soul? For this is a discerning of spirits. How is it that they pray for an inspired utterance from God to help others? For this is the realm of prophecy. How is it that they pray for the Holy Spirit to inspire them in prayer? and then reject the gift of tongues, which is the Divine answer to this request. It is a fact that Christians who say that spiritual gifts have ceased to operate in the Church, actually pray for their manifestation. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, have in reality tried to remove God's influence from His Church, and put it in the hands of men. We must accept that God has decreed that we need these gifts, and not frustrate the wise and loving reasons for their manifestation.

Christians who say that spiritual gifts are not for today are really unwilling to seek God for those gifts; they refuse to submit to the experience that God desires to give them. They are not prepared to accept the full Scriptural standard, or the Lordship or wisdom of Christ over these spiritual gifts. Those who reject spiritual gifts completely, would in reality totally remove God's influence from His Church. If God only works through His word today, as some insist, there is no point in the ministries of the Holy Spirit at all. Paul clearly states in 1Cor 12v21, that we cannot say that we have no need of these ministries and gifts, they are all essential, if Christ's body is to function as He intends. It is only difficult for Christians to witness effectively if God's gifts and ministries are missing.

Some would say, “I believe in God's power and influence, but how can you be sure that you will get the Holy Spirit and not some evil spirit?” We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing. Indeed, the Scriptures emphatically state that it is only by seeking God for His power and gifts that we can be spiritually safe, and successfully resist the Devil, we certainly can't outwit or defeat Satan on our own. Psalm 24v3-6, 27v1-14, 42v1-11, 46v10, 62v1,2, Acts 1v14, 2v42, 3v1, 4v29-33, 6v2-4, 8v14-17, 9v11,12, 10v2,9-20, 12v5,12, 13v1-4, etc. Eph 6v10-20, James 4v7-10, 1Pet 5v5-11. etc. Those who refuse to seek God's power for fear of receiving some false spirit, have in reality already been defeated by Satan, and have shown a lack of faith in God's ability to care for His children. Satan kept Israel out of Canaan through fear and unbelief; they could not trust God to look after them. Indeed, the Scriptures reveal that it has always been those who have failed to seek God for His blessing and spiritual gifts, who have been influenced by evil spirits. Heb 3 and 4.

These are some pretty outlandish statements and conclusions. I am not taking the time to give answer to all your so called prof texts you listed but I will rebut a few.

You listed James 4:7-10 - what does this have to do with extraordinary gifts. The subject here is "Grace", which all true believers receive. James 4:5-6 Or think ye that the scripture speaketh in vain? Doth the spirit which he made to dwell in us long unto envying? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore the scripture saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.

Again in 1 Peter 5:5-11 - is talking about humility and remaining steadfast, relying on the Grace of God.

You stated: " We answer that true Christians believe the promise of Christ, that they cannot receive any false spirit or gift, if they are seeking God for His gifts and blessing." Really, What about Peter on two different occasions: 1) Mat. 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men. 2) Luke 22:31-32 Simon, Simon, behold, Satan asked to have you, that he might sift you as wheat: but I made supplication for thee, that thy faith fail not; and do thou, when once thou hast turned again, establish thy brethren.

Therefore, Peter was under the influence of the spirit of the flesh in case number 1 and was temporarily influenced by the Devil in case number two. Additionally all believers are warned to test the spirits because in the last days there will be many lies and false wonders and signs. Mar 13:22 for there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show signs and wonders, that they may lead astray, if possible, the elect.

As for signs - these are something that the Jews look for, they need this authentication of the speaker, that he is from God because they do not possess hearing ears are seeing eyes. This is why the Scriptures say that signs, (Tongues, healing and other sign gifts), are for the unbelieving. Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:, and 1Co 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom: The born again believer does not need them because he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and has hearing ears and seeing eyes.

These signs and wonders may not be from God, permitted by Him but He is not the origin:

Rev 13:13-14 And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men. And he is deceiving them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived.
Rev_16:14 for they are spirits of demons, working signs; which go forth unto the kings of the whole world, to gather them together unto the war of the great day of God, the Almighty.

 

[awelight]

Hey, well 80% is progress!

The example I used was from the perspective of a new believer, not my own perspective. My faith is solid, and was before I experienced anything miraculous. However, the miraculous events that I have experienced confirm what I already knew from Scripture.

All of the gifts discussed in 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, and Romans are for this life. We will have no need of prophecy, tongues, healing, teaching, administration, helps, apostles, etc. in the eternal kingdom. Using physical needs as examples only puts the whole issue into practical terms.

BTW, I have no time for Kenneth Copeland or the like, and I don't hold to the "prosperity gospel".

Your last statement is good to hear.