Lot's Daughters

[breno785au]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Lot would choose to give over his daughters to the wicked men over some strangers he just met?
Doesn't really make sense to me except Lot really wasn't a bright guy through and through.

Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”
Genesis 19:8

 

[breno785au]

Mods can close this thread. I found another thread discussing similar thing.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...19-8-lot-offering-his-daughters.190135/page-2

 

[JaumeJ]

The men of Sodom wanted to have their way with those Angels of God. From here it should be understandable.

 

[birdie]

"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto."

The key to understanding Lot and his daughters is to understand that the Bible is written in parable language. For example, the above verse from Luke is describing the same situation as in Genesis 19, but is using slightly different language. Notice that the men of Sodom, in Genesis 19, compass Lot's house just as the armies compass Jerusalem in Luke 21. Angels in Lot's case are a picture of the believers' and their message, even perhaps of Christ. They arrive at evening, a picture of the time period towards the end of the church age as Christ's coming is nigh, possibly. At that time, the congregations seem to have become wicked and do not know how to do anything but mistreat or reject the true believers such as Lot and those who have come under his roof (roof is a picture of where the gospel being proclaimed). The daughters mentioned in Genesis 19 have not known man, meaning apparently that they are not saved or in Christ. They have not know Christ. The angels on the other hand have come under the roof, meaning apparently that they have come under the protection of the gospel. Notice how the true believers strike the unbelievers blind so that they cannot find the door. The door in parable terms is Christ. Remember, he is the door of the sheep. The true believers' gospel has shut the door for a period of time during which it seems that there is no salvation for those without: "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut." Notice that during this story, Lot and the true believers flee away from the fallen congregations and they flee to Christ himself. Just as Luke tells us to "flee to the mountains"; in parable language this means to flee to the Lord himself. After all, as the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lords surrounds his people. Fleeing to the mountains means flee to the Lord. In the heart, the true believer does not flee to institutions that have grown wicked, nor trust in a fallen congregation for salvation. Rather, the true believer flees in his heart to the Lord for help, for salvation, for safety. When Lot offers the two daughters who are apparently unconverted to Christ, to the fallen congregations, it seems to possibly be describing how those who are unsaved, the foolish virgins in the parable of the virgins, will be given over to destruction, whilst Lot (representing those who are wise) is saved.

 

[Corban]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Lot would choose to give over his daughters to the wicked men over some strangers he just met?
Doesn't really make sense to me except Lot really wasn't a bright guy through and through.

Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”
Genesis 19:8

Lot is reported, by the Holy Spirit in 2nd Peter 2:7, "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked".

Lot had an appreciation of the seriousness of Sodomy. He took the best way out - normal sex, which God has never judged. If a man and woman have normal sex and then part, it is fornication, but no law was yet given against fornication. Lot acted wisely in this matter.

Where Lot failed was ...

• That he desired things by sight. When he was given the choice of lands by Abraham, he chose the well-watered and fertile valley of Jordan. But Sodom was already an eyesore in this valley.
• Then Lot "pitched his tent towards Sodom". The glamor and cultural things of men attracted him and especially his wife.
• Then we find after a while that "Lot dwelt in Sodom". The lust of the eye became his decision. He loved the city life and its advantages.
• But then it turns ugly, and we read that "Lot dwelt in the Gates of Sodom". The "Gates" of a city is its government. It was there that the leaders and politicians gathered to discuss and pass judgment (Prov.31:23 etc.). Lot probably thought like many Christians. Get involved in politics and have the means to do something about the fallen situation. It never works. Our Lord Jesus didn't try that trick. He will one day institute His Kingdom - new and heavenly. He will not reform the old but crush it to dust (Dan.2:44).
• Finally, Lot was offered the high place where Abraham was at Hebron, but he couldn't stomach that life and asked to go to Zoar, which means "insignificant". Hebron means "fellowship" and is on a high plain. Zoar was one of the lowest geographical places on earth.

Lot was not stupid. He chose the best looking place for his cattle and was able to be in government. But Lot loved the world and its glamour and glitz. The result? His wife gone, incest with his daughters, and sons that became the mortal enemies of God's people Israel.

 

[Duskey]

Goes to show you how low women were deemed back in lot’s day.

 

[pottersclay]

I think it was sorta like a gage on how vile sodom had become.

 

[Benadam]

I think it was sorta like a gage on how vile sodom had become.

And they had husband's but .....

 

[Corban]

Goes to show you how low women were deemed back in lot’s day.

Maybe the narrative shows the opposite. The city was steeped in sodomy. Lot knew this to be unnatural. But when the Sodomites wanted to fornicate with angels, Lot remembered the Flood of Noah and maybe thought that his two daughters might avert a catastrophe. Their value, in this case, would have been extremely high - saving thousands of lives.

I'm not contradicting. You might be perfectly right. But it is possible that Lot had a different appreciation of "the SONS of men going after the sons of God". Men need a rainbow to stop the fear of what God did when the "daughters of men" mixed with angels. What would He do if MEN mixed with angels? Scary stuff!

 

[Magenta]

Goes to show you how low women were deemed back in lot’s day.

Unfortunately, not much has changed in that regard

 

[Duskey]

Maybe the narrative shows the opposite. The city was steeped in sodomy. Lot knew this to be unnatural. But when the Sodomites wanted to fornicate with angels, Lot remembered the Flood of Noah and maybe thought that his two daughters might avert a catastrophe. Their value, in this case, would have been extremely high - saving thousands of lives.

I'm not contradicting. You might be perfectly right. But it is possible that Lot had a different appreciation of "the SONS of men going after the sons of God". Men need a rainbow to stop the fear of what God did when the "daughters of men" mixed with angels. What would He do if MEN mixed with angels? Scary stuff!

You make a good point however Scripture has several other stories where women were treated abhorrently.

 

[Duskey]

Unfortunately, not much has changed in that regard

At least harvey weinstein is in prison. 😉

 

[breno785au]

Lot is reported, by the Holy Spirit in 2nd Peter 2:7, "And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked".

Lot had an appreciation of the seriousness of Sodomy. He took the best way out - normal sex, which God has never judged. If a man and woman have normal sex and then part, it is fornication, but no law was yet given against fornication. Lot acted wisely in this matter.

Where Lot failed was ...

• That he desired things by sight. When he was given the choice of lands by Abraham, he chose the well-watered and fertile valley of Jordan. But Sodom was already an eyesore in this valley.
• Then Lot "pitched his tent towards Sodom". The glamor and cultural things of men attracted him and especially his wife.
• Then we find after a while that "Lot dwelt in Sodom". The lust of the eye became his decision. He loved the city life and its advantages.
• But then it turns ugly, and we read that "Lot dwelt in the Gates of Sodom". The "Gates" of a city is its government. It was there that the leaders and politicians gathered to discuss and pass judgment (Prov.31:23 etc.). Lot probably thought like many Christians. Get involved in politics and have the means to do something about the fallen situation. It never works. Our Lord Jesus didn't try that trick. He will one day institute His Kingdom - new and heavenly. He will not reform the old but crush it to dust (Dan.2:44).
• Finally, Lot was offered the high place where Abraham was at Hebron, but he couldn't stomach that life and asked to go to Zoar, which means "insignificant". Hebron means "fellowship" and is on a high plain. Zoar was one of the lowest geographical places on earth.

Lot was not stupid. He chose the best looking place for his cattle and was able to be in government. But Lot loved the world and its glamour and glitz. The result? His wife gone, incest with his daughters, and sons that became the mortal enemies of God's people Israel.

Yeah I'm not really sure how the possibility of being savagely gang raped makes it any better just because it would be considered heterosexual sex.
Anyway, I've drawn to the conclusion I don't think I'd come to any meaningful conclusion by thinking about it anymore.
I think having 3 children and rereading that scripture again somewhat baffled me.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Corban]

You make a good point however Scripture has several other stories where women were treated abhorrently.

No doubt. There are inexcusable examples, not only in the Bible, but in our everyday life. I cannot speak for the heathen, but every Christian should remember that any mishandling of another person will be given account for at the Bema (Rom.14:10; 2nd Cor.5:10).

 

[Corban]

Yeah I'm not really sure how the possibility of being savagely gang raped makes it any better just because it would be considered heterosexual sex.
Anyway, I've drawn to the conclusion I don't think I'd come to any meaningful conclusion by thinking about it anymore.
I think having 3 children and rereading that scripture again somewhat baffled me.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.

I tend to agree - having 3 of my own. I can understand your sentiments fully, but these narratives are set forth by the Holy Spirit to do just that - make us think. Lot is one of the grand pictures of a slothful Christian. He chose by sight. He had no relationship with Jehovah. He had no appreciation that it was Abraham who interceded for him and probably saved his life. He involved himself in local politics when he knew that things were debauched. He was "vexed" but did not withdraw. He was "righteous" but chose the weaker and lower way. He probably could not be blamed for getting drunk as he'd just lost is wife, home, livelihood and fame, but it had terrible consequences. And the punchline is that given the right circumstances, we'll all do the same if we don't have a strong, virile and hourly relationship with our Lord.

 

[breno785au]

I tend to agree - having 3 of my own. I can understand your sentiments fully, but these narratives are set forth by the Holy Spirit to do just that - make us think. Lot is one of the grand pictures of a slothful Christian. He chose by sight. He had no relationship with Jehovah. He had no appreciation that it was Abraham who interceded for him and probably saved his life. He involved himself in local politics when he knew that things were debauched. He was "vexed" but did not withdraw. He was "righteous" but chose the weaker and lower way. He probably could not be blamed for getting drunk as he'd just lost is wife, home, livelihood and fame, but it had terrible consequences. And the punchline is that given the right circumstances, we'll all do the same if we don't have a strong, virile and hourly relationship with our Lord.

Interesting.
2 things, instead of learning about Lot's thought process I've actually learned something about myself. I've unfairly judged him as witnessed by my statement in OP about him not being the brightest as if I'm perfect and immune to making wrong decisions in this life. I'm the last person who should be judging anyone.
Also I think I'm beginning to see a different side of grace and mercy, even though he made bad choices he was still considered righteous as said later on in Scripture. That's amazing itself.

 

[Corban]

Interesting.
2 things, instead of learning about Lot's thought process I've actually learned something about myself. I've unfairly judged him as witnessed by my statement in OP about him not being the brightest as if I'm perfect and immune to making wrong decisions in this life. I'm the last person who should be judging anyone.
Also I think I'm beginning to see a different side of grace and mercy, even though he made bad choices he was still considered righteous as said later on in Scripture. That's amazing itself.

With that attitude you'll go far in your Christian life.
Psalm 34:18 (KJV)
18 The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.

Psalm 51:17 (KJV)
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 57:15 (KJV)
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:2 (KJV)
2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Three significant Bible characters lived at the same time. It is estimated that Job lived at the same time as Abraham and Lot. The ancient Jewish scribes tried to get Job removed from their canon as he seemed to overshadow their hero Abraham. But no. Each showed his fallen humanity in a different way.

1. Abraham twice feared for his life because of his beautiful wife. He lied twice to save his life. And he did this before he had Isaac. How could he die before having the promised seed if he was a man of faith?
2. Lot we have discussed - a fleshly man living by sight and not by faith
3. Job suffered much. That he was righteous is not disputed. He, not Abraham, was God's showpiece. But the old nature inherited from Adam is ever present. He is fine when measured against other men. But in the face of a holy God, he must "abhor" himself.

A "contrite" heart and spirit is needed in all of us.

 

[posthuman]

Does anyone have any thoughts as to why Lot would choose to give over his daughters to the wicked men over some strangers he just met?
Doesn't really make sense to me except Lot really wasn't a bright guy through and through.

Behold, I have two daughters who have not known any man. Let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please. Only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof.”
Genesis 19:8

i have heard once in a sermon the idea floated that he never intended to follow through with this. that he was stalling for time -- with the rationale: because he is Abraham's nephew, and his uncle Abraham has the most powerful army in the region. Abraham & his servants had not too long ago defeated a coalition of kings that had sacked Sodom & Gomorrah. Lot is probably not poor, in Sodom, and has servants of his own outside his house, tending his flocks and things. they would see every man in the city surrounding their master's house, and probably go tell his uncle. so the thought behind what this one pastor said was that Lot knows that they can't keep him surrounded for long before his own allies are aware of this.

i thought this was a very interesting idea; i have rarely heard anyone even really talk about the subject at any length -- most preachers just point at this verse and make the standard two points about look how wicked Lot was yet God can save him, and look how evil the world is; democrats would do that with their daughters, clearly we are better than them.

 

[posthuman]

i have heard once in a sermon the idea floated that he never intended to follow through with this. that he was stalling for time -- with the rationale: because he is Abraham's nephew, and his uncle Abraham has the most powerful army in the region. Abraham & his servants had not too long ago defeated a coalition of kings that had sacked Sodom & Gomorrah. Lot is probably not poor, in Sodom, and has servants of his own outside his house, tending his flocks and things. they would see every man in the city surrounding their master's house, and probably go tell his uncle. so the thought behind what this one pastor said was that Lot knows that they can't keep him surrounded for long before his own allies are aware of this.

another thing about this, is that Lot's not in some tent. he has a house in the city such that all the men of the city are around it, but when the door is closed, they can't get in. and this mob -- why don't they just rush into the house to begin with? it's literally everyone vs. Lot -- but they are instead trying to talk to him and demand he bring the angels out. why? Lot's clearly respected, and feared, and wealthy.

i remember hearing a preacher using standard-Lot-sermon-point-#2 and mentioning this detail of the story as evidence that as bad as the men of Sodom were, 'this proves they had better ethics than we do today' because, the preacher said, they still had high enough morals not to enter Lot's house without his permission. this guy literally explained it that they didn't want to be rude, and that's why they didn't just climb in the windows and kidnap whoever they wanted.

oh man, groan! i didn't know to laugh or cry listening to that coming from a pulpit. the church should be able to answer questions like this

 

[Benadam]

Lots daughters were desperate to give birth knowing their offspring would be founding fathers of a nation. Lot was doing his daughters a favor. If someone among the crowd was willing they wouldn't have manipulated their father in the cave later on. This highlights how pervasive SSA was among the citizens and how different things are at the beginning of generations.