Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

[TheDivineWatermark]

We are not gathered first, years before his return.
He returns AND we are gathered just as the scripture says.

At the time of His "RETURN" (to the earth Rev19), this is what happens: "[said to the ANGELS/REAPERS] GATHER YE *FIRST* the TARES..."


(the complete OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that which happens at the time of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event )

 

[Runningman]

These ^ verses are not saying, "gather together... FROM the uttermost part of the earth [as though this is its ORIGINATION-point] TO the uttermost part of heaven [as though this is its DESTINATION-point]".

No.

This is saying, "from the extremities" (no place left out), from where they have been "scattered"... like it says in Deut30:3-5 -

"3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven [/of the heavens], from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.



Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with the following passage:

Isa27:12-13 -

12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphrates d to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [not "AS ONE," as *we* will be! ] 13 And in that day a GREAT trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD on the holy mountain in Jerusalem.


This is NOT the "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event.




This is repeated by many (as to what they think the passage is saying and how it will play out), but... to be brutally honest... it is hogwash.

Many in "Christendom" (those not "saved") will enter the Trib yrs (following "our Rapture"), to be sure, but that is not to say "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will enter it (to/of whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]). Those "unsaved" of "Christendom" are the "Lukewarm" [NOT SAVED] of Rev3 ([said] "to the churchES")... of whom the Lord says, He will "spew out of His mouth" (Who "[He] would [rather] they be HOT OR COLD--that is, CONNECTED TO THE SOURCE, but ARE NOT, and so...) who will enter the Trib years, but whom He also counsels to "buy of Me gold TRIED IN THE FIRE..."... when "the hour of trial" commences to unfold upon the earth (i.e. the START of the [7-]trib yrs).

Saying that Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds to Isaiah 27:12-13 makes absolutely no sense. Jesus is referring to a future event. I prefer to stick with what the Bible says in matters of context and subject.

Yes, it is the rapture in the air event.

Look again at Mark 13:27"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. "

"...from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

Meaning there is a change of location from the surface of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. That involves becoming airborne.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Saying that Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds to Isaiah 27:12-13 makes absolutely no sense. Jesus is referring to a future event.

[re: the bold ^ ] So is Isaiah 27:12-13.

("in THAT day" --prophecy being stated )

Recall what Acts 3:21 said,

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." (i.e. OT prophecies spoken by the OT prophets)... the problem many have with this passage (and its CONTEXT) is that many (like the Amill-teachings) do not recognize the two distinct "RAISE" issues in this CONTEXT, so they MISS that Peter (in ONE of the "raise" aspects) is speaking of Jesus' earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/His death, when He was "raised up" to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry (the "prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have foretold of THESE days" v.24 (see 1Sam8:7 "for they have not rejected thee, but have rejected Me, that *I* should not reign over them" [reflective of both what Jesus had referred to in Lk19:14 "We will not have this man to reign over us," as well as in Joseph's *FIRST* dream, what his brothers said to/of/about him "Shalt thou indeed reign over us?" Gen37:8 (connecting with Christ's *FIRST* advent)])... it is not as the "Amill-teachings" (and others) say, that Peter is speaking in this verse (v.24) of His "now [being] on the throne of David UP IN HEAVEN" as was said [NO.] (per their misunderstanding of THIS CONTEXT, where Peter INSTEAD is pointing out what they had OVERLOOKED/BYPASSED in their looking for Messiah, and THAT was "His SUFFERING SERVANT" aspect, vv.13,26 ["HIS SERVANT JESUS"] of Acts 3, as well as v.22).

So, this Acts 3:21 verse is saying is that there are MORE OT prophecies YET TO BE FULFILLED (Isa27:12-13 = Matt24:29-31 as ONE of those "FUTURE THINGS" yet to be fulfilled).




In their Matthew 24:3 Q of Him, their Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,49-50 (when the ANGELS will "REAP"--not a "Rapture" context!) His response is spelled out in both chpts (24 & 25), and speaks of "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, *FOR* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom-age, which will commence upon His "RETURN" (to the earth). [NOT a "Rapture" context, in either Matt24-25 or Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50]

I prefer to stick with what the Bible says in matters of context and subject.

Me too.

At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse (and throughout His response there), He had NOT YET SPOKEN *ANYTHING* regarding "our Rapture," but had spoken (even in M24-25) ONLY about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age.

PPl today are "READING INTO" His Olivet Discourse the idea of "our Rapture," but it is NOWHERE THERE being referred to, AT ALL.

Yes, it is the rapture in the air event.
Look again at Mark 13:27"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. "
"...from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
Meaning there is a change of location from the surface of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. That involves becoming airborne.

No. I just explained that. It is NOT saying "FROM the origination-point [uttermost part of the earth] TO the destination point [the uttermost part of heaven]"... it is saying (more like) "FROM sea TO shining sea" (meaning, that which pertains to THE EXTREMITIES and everything in between, NOWHERE LEFT OUT--and NOT SAYING "FROM an origination-point TO a destination-point").

It means, they will be gathered "from the extremities," from where THEY'VE been "SCATTERED" (i.e. this "GATHERED" referring to the OPPOSITE ACTION from that which occurred in the 70ad section of events, "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS"... and note the "UNTIL" word in that Lk21:24 verse which corresponds with a number of other "UNTIL" words pertaining to THIS Subject, in Scripture). It is by viewing "Matthew 24:29-31 APART from its broader overall context, that one can come to such a conclusion as you and many others have, but which is not accurate biblically, but rather extracted from its CONTEXT and viewed singularly.

 

[Runningman]

[re: the bold ^ ] So is Isaiah 27:12-13.

("in THAT day" --prophecy being stated )

Recall what Acts 3:21 said,

"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." (i.e. OT prophecies spoken by the OT prophets)... the problem many have with this passage (and its CONTEXT) is that many (like the Amill-teachings) do not recognize the two distinct "RAISE" issues in this CONTEXT, so they MISS that Peter (in ONE of the "raise" aspects) is speaking of Jesus earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/His death when He was "raised up" to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry (the "prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have foretold of THESE days" v.24 (see 1Sam8:7 "for they have not rejected thee, but have rejected Me, that *I* should not reign over them" [reflective of both what Jesus had referred to in Lk19:14 "We will not have this man to reign over us," as well as in Joseph's *FIRST* dream, what his brothers said to/of/about him "Shalt thou indeed reign over us?" Gen37:8 (connecting with Christ's *FIRST* advent)])... it is not as the "Amill-teachings" (and others) say, that Peter is speaking in this verse (v.24) of His "now [being] on the throne of David UP IN HEAVEN" as was said [NO.] (per their misunderstanding of THIS CONTEXT, where Peter INSTEAD is pointing out what they had OVERLOOKED/BYPASSED in their looking for Messiah, and THAT was "His SUFFERING SERVANT" aspect, vv.13,26 ["HIS SERVANT JESUS"] of Acts 3, as well as v.22).

So, this Acts 3:21 verse is saying is that there are MORE OT prophecies YET TO BE FULFILLED (Isa27:12-13 = Matt24:29-31 as ONE of those "FUTURE THINGS" yet to be fulfilled).

In their Matthew 24:3 Q of Him, their Q was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,49-50 (when the ANGELS will "REAP"--not a "Rapture" context!) His response is spelled out in both chpts (24 & 25), and speaks of "still-living" persons at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, *FOR* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom-age, which will commence upon His "RETURN" (to the earth). [NOT a "Rapture" context, in either Matt24-25 or Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50]



Me too.

At the time Jesus spoke His Olivet Discourse (and throughout His response there), He had NOT YET SPOKEN *ANYTHING* regarding "our Rapture," but had spoken (even in M24-25) ONLY about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age.

PPl today are "READING INTO" His Olivet Discourse the idea of "our Rapture," but it is NOWHERE THERE being referred to, AT ALL.



No. I just explained that. It is NOT saying "FROM the origination-point [uttermost part of the earth] TO the destination point [the uttermost part of heaven]"... it is saying (more like) "FROM sea TO shining sea" (meaning, that which pertains to THE EXTREMITIES and everything in between, NOWHERE LEFT OUT--and NOT SAYING "FROM an origination-point TO a destination-point").

It means, they will be gathered "from the extremities," from where THEY'VE been "SCATTERED" (i.e. this "GATHERED" referring to the OPPOSITE ACTION from that which occurred in the 70ad section of events, "and they shall be led away captive INTO ALL THE NATIONS"... and note the "UNTIL" word in that Lk21:24 verse which corresponds with a number of other "UNTIL" words pertaining to THIS Subject, in Scripture). It is by viewing "Matthew 24:29-31 APART from its broader overall context, that one can come to such a conclusion as you and many others have, but which is not accurate biblically, but rather extracted from its CONTEXT and viewed singularly.

No.

The verse means they'll be taken from the earth and brought to the heaven. There are no people currently in the heavens to gather unless this is a prophecy about people being aboard aircraft at the time of Jesus' return. The point this is making that the angels will be sent out to gather the elect at the time of the second return of Jesus - when will then be brought from earth to the heavens.

This point is supplemented by the same exact sequence of events in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Which is entirely consistent with what the Olivet Discourse states. 1. Jesus returns 2. The elect are taken from earth to heaven.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No.

The verse means they'll be taken from the earth and brought to the heaven. There are no people currently in the heavens to gather unless this is a prophecy about people being aboard aircraft at the time of Jesus' return. The point this is making that the angels will be sent out to gather the elect at the time of the second return of Jesus - when will then be brought from earth to the heavens.

You didn't read the associated passage I had supplied, did you?

Deuteronomy 30 -
Restoration Promised

1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven/heavens [PLURAL], from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.


[ ^ not UP IN Heaven... and not UP IN the skies ^ ... but rather "the extremities" (just like the Olivet Discourse is speaking of, and about "Israel," the same way, in both)]

 

[Absolutely]

You might get this in duplicate...

Was Job put through God's Wrath? Did God torment the only righteous man on earth he loved? No, but He allowed Satan to "test" him. That is the picture of the 7-year Tribulation. God will "allow" Satan to test His Church, to take peace from the earth and to kill in various ways - this is Satan's "wrath or fury" with permission granted by The Father for a 7-year period.

God grants power to Satan:​

• Rev 6:4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
• Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The hour of testing referred to in Rev. 3:10, is God's Wrath that will occur in the future (at the end of the 7-year Tribulation), this section of the verse shows the hour the Saints will be kept from:

• ...that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth

The church will not experience this "hour", because it's not a time of tribulation (all Saints will experience that) but it's the "hour of God's Wrath", that will "test" the ones left on earth - these are the unrighteous ones who took the Mark, the ones who loved their lives here and the things of this world and who turned down the offer of salvation in Christ.​

​

(The Rapture and Resurrection have already occurred before this hour comes, as He already descended and harvested the Saints to Himself in the clouds. ( See Revelation 14:14-20 as Jesus descends in the clouds, reaps the harvest, gathers the wheat to Himself in the clouds (Resurrection/Rapture) and orders the tares bundled for burning. This is followed by God's Wrath being poured out and then the final Battle of Armageddon (putting the spoiled grapes through the vinepress).​

Examples of "testing" vs "God's Wrath":

To the church at Smyrna, God understood and loved their faithfulness, obedience, and that they confessed His name boldly. Despite this, they were subject to tribulation (testing) and persecution, especially by the synagogue of Satan:​

​

• Rev 2:9 'I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

• Rev 2:10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. *Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

*Notice Jesus tells them to be faithful until they are put to death. He tells the same to the church saints in the tribulation. That God won't "beat up His Bride" in the Tribulation doesn't stand up against these words.​

On-the-other hand, the church at Thyratira, although they were commended for their patience, charity, works and service, they suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce His servants, and work all kinds of evil in the church (kind of like today). God warned them to repent because he was going to pour out His Wrath upon any one of them found committing adultery with her:

• Rev 2:22 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.

So there is a major difference between a time of testing by God, and His Wrath. And the 7-year Tribulation IS NOT God's Wrath (as shown earlier). God definitely allows times of testing for His Children all throughout the Old and New Testament. Our current church will be granted no exception.

• 2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

When I decided to test the pre-trib Rapture (using only the Holy Spirit's guidance) that I believed, as taught, for 40 years, it soon became clear no Scripture contained a secret resurrection of the dead in Christ followed by the Rapture of the living EXCEPT post Tribulation at His Second Coming. I no longer believe that any Saint is entitled to escape persecution and tribulation - it is just a matter of degree that is visited upon us. Tribulation will be great during the final 3.5 years, but He will cut it short at some time close to the end. Such a blessing God has given us to not be caught off guard as to when He's coming, so we don't have to lose heart wondering (as so many already are). The thief will be taken by surprise when He comes, but we will not be surprised - we know when He is coming:

• 1Th 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
• 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;

His Coming and The Resurrection and the Rapture:

• Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

• Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
• Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

• 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
• 1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,

leave out all our verses,which you did,and ....POOOOOF!!! your doctrine works so well without them.

 

[Absolutely]

Because I don’t believe that God will take us Christians out before the wrath of God. The wrath of God...not starting at the opening of the first seal but the seventh. We will be there to share Jesus with the world and get martyred for it. I don’t know how many will be alive and waiting for Jesus return..but I can’t see that it will be many.

I don’t see why God would take out perfectly able Christians who’ve been Christians for years to save them from the tribulation period than raise up baby Christians in that period to go before kings and rulers and share the gospel. Why couldn’t He just use us? And I think you’ll have a hard time convincing people to become Christians after a pre trib rapture anyway...


If Jesus doesn’t want to take the disciples out of the world..and we are heirs to those people...why would He want to take us out of the world and replace us? God is consistent...if He spared them He would spare us..but He didn’t spare them..they died for their faith and so will we.

And we will follow Jesus later..after we have died for our faith...the dead rise first ya know.


How many times does Jesus return though? If He’s in the air...isn’t that a return? He is after all sitting at the right hand of the Father right now.

We don’t go to the place where God has prepared for us after the rapture...we are His army.


After the rapture..yes but not the pre trib rapture...that’s a false teaching.


Right..that’s why he didn’t know who the white robed people were...he was being shown it.


Sure..but weren’t you also saying that it was spiritual that Jesus died for us or something like that?


The next event is the peace treaty that brings the 7 year peace that the antichrist breaks in the middle of it. That is how we know that we are finally in the last 7 years of history. We need to know what to look for to know when his appearing is near.


Right..the man of lawlessness is revealed when he stands in the temple declaring himself God..which is when he stops the sacrifices after the 3.5 years treaty is broken by him.


This is the reason I thought you thought that it was spiritual..when you talk about Jesus taking God’s wrath. By the time God’s wrath comes upon the earth it will only be non believers taking His wrath...not the church. Our disagreement doesn’t come because of this..but the timing of our being taking out.

You say you agree about Tim Lahay however..you agree with him and the pre trib rapture. Pre trib meaning before the trib..before the 7 years.


No Jesus isn’t responsible for what’s in the earlier seals. The ruler of this earth is. It is he who is giving it one last go to be the ruler of the earth until he is taken out by Jesus.

Why would God send witnesses as His wrath? The wrath starts after the rapture..the saints who have been on the earth through the first 5 seals then they are raptured and the wrath of God starts. There are no tribulation saints to stand in for us because God loves us so much he will take us out before all that. No..God doesn’t work like that.


If they become Christians after all us Christians are raptured..than they are baby Christians. You aren’t getting this from the Bible.

because I don’t believe that God will take us Christians out before the wrath of God.

Lot
Noah
The baby Jesus
all removed prejudgement
All ptretrib dynamics.

Psssst...you believe they were Removed postjudgement.

 

[Absolutely]

The Bible very plainly states that the rapture happens after the Great Tribulation, at the same time that Jesus returns. The Elect (Christians) on the Earth will be gathered by Jesus' angels:

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Luke 13:24-27
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Luke 21:25-28
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

The Olivet discourse is pretty point blank, even describing in detail what "the tribulation of those days" is referring to.

There just simply is no way to undo what the Bible says about the order events that characterize the end times, the great tribulation, return of Christ, rapture/resurrection.

Is the false teaching of pre-tribulation rapture, getting the power of "him" out of the way, who restrains the antichrist?

Now that some proper exegesis has been laid down, let's answer this question. The answer is most likely yes even though it is not explicitly stated.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

What this is saying is that there must be a falling away first and foremost. What is the falling away, then? The falling away is of the church. How does the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture relate to this? People will be utterly disillusioned when Jesus does not return when they expect him to. This will cause many to abandon their faith and set up the perfect conditions necessary for a lawless world.

Jesus said that we are the salt of the earth. Do we as Christians not preserve society with good morals? Once the falling away is complete, moral and spiritual decay will flourish because the salt will have lost it's flavor.

29

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 3129 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

reread your verse
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "


OK we have angels doing the gathering....NOT JESUS
we have a gathering FROM HEAVEN.....NOT EARTH.
the only dynamic you have correct is "after the trib"


and...you think in your doctrine, this: rev 14 ;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Is the exact same thing as this:
rev 19;
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "returns.

one with those harvested from earth, TO HEAVEN

the other "WITH THOSE HARVESTED from heaven" , TO EARTH

you do realize rev 14 can not be the second coming ,correct?

you do realize that,right?
nor can;
acts one
1 thes 4
or mat 25 the 10 virgins (the rapture)

 

[ewq1938]

...then I look at all the rapture verses and yep,it is not the second coming.

"....this same Jesus you see ascending.....shall return in LIKE MANNER."

So did Jesus leave on a white horse followed by an army on white horses?

 

[Runningman]

reread your verse
"29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. "


OK we have angels doing the gathering....NOT JESUS
we have a gathering FROM HEAVEN.....NOT EARTH.
the only dynamic you have correct is "after the trib"


and...you think in your doctrine, this: rev 14 ;
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Is the exact same thing as this:
rev 19;
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "returns.

one with those harvested from earth, TO HEAVEN

the other "WITH THOSE HARVESTED from heaven" , TO EARTH

you do realize rev 14 can not be the second coming ,correct?

you do realize that,right?
nor can;
acts one
1 thes 4
or mat 25 the 10 virgins (the rapture)

Luke 21:27
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Correct. Jesus does come on a cloud.

Acts 1:9-7
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This isnt my doctrine. I have nothing to gain by ignoring key scriptures about Jesus returning after the great tribulation like pre-tribbers do.

You neglected to mention the broader context of Revelation 14. Look later on in that chapter to verse 19:

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The one who does the actual work with the sickle is an angel. Again, completely consistent with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

The multiple returns of Christ that you just fabricated do not exist.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no third appearing of Christ. You're way out of line here.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This isnt my doctrine. I have nothing to gain by ignoring key scriptures about Jesus returning after the great tribulation like pre-tribbers do.

Pre-tribbers [me] most certainly DO believe Jesus "RETURNS" *after* the great tribulation period (that is, He "RETURNS" to the earth, at that point in the chronology [Rev19])... the majority of what He spoke of in the Gospels pertains to THIS [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".]

We do not deny this.



[Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel in Matt24), "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347], i.e. MEAL=earthly MK; and Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN"... plus many other passages in the Gospels, regarding THIS]

 

[ewq1938]

Pre-tribbers [me] most certainly DO believe Jesus "RETURNS" *after* the great tribulation period (that is, He "RETURNS" to the earth, at that point in the chronology [Rev19])... the majority of what He spoke of in the Gospels pertains to THIS [not "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]".]

We do not deny this.

The problem is that timeframe is the ONLY time Christ returns from heaven to the Earth. There was no other "second" coming before the GT. He only comes one more time and it's after the GT has ended, which is the time of the resurrection and the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The problem is that timeframe is the ONLY time Christ returns from heaven to the Earth.

It sounds as though you do not believe Jesus did His "[ACTIVE] I ASCEND" (Jn20:17) ON "Firstfruit" (His Resurrection Day; per fulfillment of Lev23:10-12 and found in 1Cor15:20) some "40 days" before His "[VISIBLE] taken up"/"having been taken up from you into heaven"/"as ye have seen Him going [traveling] into heaven" (in Acts 1:9,11)... am I right?




Because... I mean, He did say (just before the Cross that same week), "A little while, and ye shall not see Me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see Me, because I AM GOING AWAY [ACTIVE] TO THE FATHER" Jn16:16, and then in verse 20 added, "...That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, BUT your sorrow shall be TURNED INTO JOY... [22] And ye now have sorrow: BUT I will see you again, and your heart shall REJOICE, and your JOY no man taketh from you"... and then (after His resurrection, when they finally saw Him very late that same day; after MM had TOLD them what He said for her to "SAY UNTO MY BRETHREN"), when He Himself "stood in the midst of them" (Lk24:36), it says of them, "While they were still in disbelief because of their joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” (Lk24:41).

So, there ^ is at least one instance of His coming from Heaven back down to "appear" before carefully chosen witnesses (not everyone/100% of the ppl); in a later passage, it says, "This now is the THIRD TIME that Jesus shewed Himself to His disciples after that He was risen from the dead." (Jn21:14). We aren't really told whether or not He went "back and forth" between the two locations over those "40 days," but it makes some sense to me (since this particular verse is making it sound like He wasn't with them CONSTANTLY for those "40 days" in their presence... and His "body" now had unique characteristics, like passing through walls/unopened doors, and "vanished out of their [the 2 Emmaus-road-walkers'] sight" [at that meal], so it would be no problem for Him to go back and forth between the two locations, over the course of those "40 days"... nevertheless, He did so at least once in what I've already pointed out, above).





I have more to say on that point (and how it relates to Heb9:28), but I will wait till tomorrow to do so...

 

[Absolutely]

Luke 21:27
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Correct. Jesus does come on a cloud.

Acts 1:9-7
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This isnt my doctrine. I have nothing to gain by ignoring key scriptures about Jesus returning after the great tribulation like pre-tribbers do.

You neglected to mention the broader context of Revelation 14. Look later on in that chapter to verse 19:

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The one who does the actual work with the sickle is an angel. Again, completely consistent with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

The multiple returns of Christ that you just fabricated do not exist.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no third appearing of Christ. You're way out of line here.

You do realize coming with no power,no white horses,no purpose of conquering, no killing,etc.....is not the same as coming WITH THAT LIST OF DYNAMICS???

YOU HAVE A BOGUS ASSERTION.

Your entire deal is busted.
There are no such dynamics in the rapture.

You literally reframed rev 14.
You litterally changed the bible for your doctrines.

You need the word "before" removed from mat 24
Before!. You can see "after" correct?
You can propel your doctrine tirelessly off of "after",correct?

Then,in every "power point" skip,ignore and reframe "before"

You need lot and noah removed as pretrib dynamics BY JESUS.

And we can only speculate what you postrib rapture adherents need changed in the 10 virgins parable.(the rapture).

 

[Absolutely]

The problem is that timeframe is the ONLY time Christ returns from heaven to the Earth. There was no other "second" coming before the GT. He only comes one more time and it's after the GT has ended, which is the time of the resurrection and the rapture.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming and the resurrection of the dead in Christ.


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture and it happens after the second coming of Christ which only happens once the great tribulation has ended. The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul in verse 17.

""The problem is that timeframe is the ONLY time Christ returns from heaven to the Earth. There was no other "second" coming before the GT. He only comes one more time and it's after the GT has ended, which is the time of the resurrection and the rapture""

Rev 14 destroys that.
Totally destroys it.

 

[Absolutely]

""The multiple returns of Christ that you just fabricated do not exist.""

Making the multiple returns into one is beyond rediculous.

You have been shown the impossibility of the second coming being the rapture.
You have no excuse to ignore that or pretend it is something else.

 

[Absolutely]

No.

The verse means they'll be taken from the earth and brought to the heaven. There are no people currently in the heavens to gather unless this is a prophecy about people being aboard aircraft at the time of Jesus' return. The point this is making that the angels will be sent out to gather the elect at the time of the second return of Jesus - when will then be brought from earth to the heavens.

This point is supplemented by the same exact sequence of events in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Which is entirely consistent with what the Olivet Discourse states. 1. Jesus returns 2. The elect are taken from earth to heaven.

""The verse means they'll be taken from the earth and brought to the heaven. There are no people currently in the heavens to gather unless this is a prophecy about people being aboard aircraft at the time of Jesus' return. The point this is making that the angels will be sent out to gather the elect at the time of the second return of Jesus - when will then be brought from earth to the heavens.""

Rev 19 has all the saints in heaven during the gt.
They are seen on white horses and they,the bride,have become the wife.

Who or what GATHERED THEM IN HEAVEN????

They are gathered in heaven to mount those horses.


So simple,but you filter everything through that doctrine that is poorly thought out.

 

[Absolutely]

So did Jesus leave on a white horse followed by an army on white horses?

Bingo!!!

Now you are actually THINKING for yourself.

Congrats. Now you HAVE the proper starting place.

(You now dont NEED it to say something)

 

[Absolutely]

Luke 21:27
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Correct. Jesus does come on a cloud.

Acts 1:9-7
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

This isnt my doctrine. I have nothing to gain by ignoring key scriptures about Jesus returning after the great tribulation like pre-tribbers do.

You neglected to mention the broader context of Revelation 14. Look later on in that chapter to verse 19:

19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The one who does the actual work with the sickle is an angel. Again, completely consistent with what Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse.

The multiple returns of Christ that you just fabricated do not exist.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no third appearing of Christ. You're way out of line here.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So you think "cloud" magically erases "power" ,"sitting" ,"sickle", "horses",and gathering vs conquering/war ?
And yes let's look at purpose.
The rapture is the main harvest of FIRSTFRUITS/JESUS and then the main harvest.

Rev 14 is FIRSTFRUITS JEWS and then the jews gathered DURING THE GT.

Of course I dont need anything changed or ignored so it will always be you taking the lower ground.

Kinda sad you make that decision everytime you reframe Gods word.

 

[Runningman]

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

So you think "cloud" magically erases "power" ,"sitting" ,"sickle", "horses",and gathering vs conquering/war ?
And yes let's look at purpose.
The rapture is the main harvest of FIRSTFRUITS/JESUS and then the main harvest.

Rev 14 is FIRSTFRUITS JEWS and then the jews gathered DURING THE GT.

Of course I dont need anything changed or ignored so it will always be you taking the lower ground.

Kinda sad you make that decision everytime you reframe Gods word.

Look what you said in post #588 above:

"2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT "returns.

one with those harvested from earth, TO HEAVEN"

This assertion you made is found nowhere on the Bible, it isn't even inferred.

The second come of Christ is always set after the great tribulation in conjunction with the rapture and resurrection of the dead.

Adding on two different returns of Christ to the earth is the only way you can make your doctrine work. It's flatly unBibiclical. I'm not going to even ask you to provide verses because they aren't there to provide.