The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[TheDivineWatermark]

that caused you to reframe the "return from wedding" dynamic and the 10 virgin parable.

"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding," this means He is "an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point (which took place UP IN HEAVEN [Rev19:7!] *prior to* His "RETURN" to the earth), not one who is coming TO BE WED, at that point.


[WE will be returning WITH HIM, at that point... we are not the ones being spoken about in this passage or in the wedding feast/supper passages (those ppl in those passages never "lift off the earth" AT ALL)]



[p.s. I do not agree with your "multiple Raptures" idea, as you may recall]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ "BLESSED is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." Dan12:12

[that is, "still-living" persons (saints) at the time surrounding His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19); and about 7-8 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of this very thing/point-in-time/persons (which are NOT "Rapture [IN THE AIR]" contexts/passages, btw)]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Here's what the Bible actually says about the rapture and when it happens:

15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

1. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. The rapture

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Matthew 24:29-31

1. After the tribulation
2. The return of Christ, the trumpet sounds
3. The rapture

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
1 Corinthians 15:52

1. The last trumpet sounds
2. The resurrection of the dead
3. We shall be changed
4. All in the twinkling of an eye

15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
Revelation 11:15

1. Final trumpet, Christ reigns forever
2. Kingdom of the world becomes the Lord's kingdom

The resurrection seen is on (The Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught, John 6:39-40, & 11:23-24

In conclusion: after the great tribulation Christ returns at the last (seventh and final) trumpet, the dead are resurrected, and believers are changed and raptured, all in the twinkling of an eye. They aren't separate events, they happen together.

Hello Runningman!

You have a few problems with that.

1). Believers cannot and will not go through God's wrath, which is what you would be putting them through if you have them being gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. For Christ already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

2). You, like so many others, are pigeonholing the word 'trumpet.' The 'last trumpet' found in I Cor.15:52, is not the same trumpet as the 'loud trumpet' of Matt.24:31. The former takes place when the Lord comes to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house. While the latter is the angels cue to go and collect those righteous who will have made it alive in their mortal bodies through the entire tribulation period. These along with Israel will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

3). The sounding of the seventh trumpet in Rev.11:15, is not the 'last trumpet' found in I Cor.15:52, and for the following reasons:

Last Trumpet = A blessed event where the church is gathered and taken to the Father's house

Seventh Trumpet = A plague of wrath, the results being Satan and his angels cast down and restricted to the earth and the third woe

Nowhere in the context of the seventh trumpet is there any mention of the church being gathered. In addition, it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets which make up 2/3's of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Also, the "last day" could be better understood as the last day time period. In the same way, 'the Day of the Lord' is not a day in length, but a seven year period. It is also referred to as 'the hour of trial' which is also not an hour in length. So when Jesus says "I will raise him up on the last day' he's referring to the end times, or last days. In support of this, there are multiple stages which make up the first resurrection, which can't possibly take place at the same time. In other words, the church, the great tribulation saints and the OT saints will not be resurrecting at the same time. The first resurrection is a collective name which encompasses all resurrections, which take place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

4). The seventh trumpet is sounded in the middle of the seven years and takes place at the beginning of the great tribulation, which is initiated by the abomination being set up in the temple. Completing God's wrath will be the seven bowl judgments, which follow the seventh trumpet. Jesus returns to the earth to end the age after the seventh bowl has been poured out and not before.

Just remember this one underlying principle: Because Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, then those who believe in Christ cannot and will not go through God's wrath. Therefore, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. God's wrath for sin is a legal precedent, which Christ fulfilled. That said, God's wrath still rests upon the unbeliever. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God

 

[Runningman]

Hello Runningman!

You have a few problems with that.

1). Believers cannot and will not go through God's wrath, which is what you would be putting them through if you have them being gathered when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. For Christ already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

2). You, like so many others, are pigeonholing the word 'trumpet.' The 'last trumpet' found in I Cor.15:52, is not the same trumpet as the 'loud trumpet' of Matt.24:31. The former takes place when the Lord comes to gather His church and take us back to the Father's house. While the latter is the angels cue to go and collect those righteous who will have made it alive in their mortal bodies through the entire tribulation period. These along with Israel will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

3). The sounding of the seventh trumpet in Rev.11:15, is not the 'last trumpet' found in I Cor.15:52, and for the following reasons:

Last Trumpet = A blessed event where the church is gathered and taken to the Father's house

Seventh Trumpet = A plague of wrath, the results being Satan and his angels cast down and restricted to the earth and the third woe

Nowhere in the context of the seventh trumpet is there any mention of the church being gathered. In addition, it would put the church through all of the seals and trumpets which make up 2/3's of God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Also, the "last day" could be better understood as the last day time period. In the same way, 'the Day of the Lord' is not a day in length, but a seven year period. It is also referred to as 'the hour of trial' which is also not an hour in length. So when Jesus says "I will raise him up on the last day' he's referring to the end times, or last days. In support of this, there are multiple stages which make up the first resurrection, which can't possibly take place at the same time. In other words, the church, the great tribulation saints and the OT saints will not be resurrecting at the same time. The first resurrection is a collective name which encompasses all resurrections, which take place prior to the resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

4). The seventh trumpet is sounded in the middle of the seven years and takes place at the beginning of the great tribulation, which is initiated by the abomination being set up in the temple. Completing God's wrath will be the seven bowl judgments, which follow the seventh trumpet. Jesus returns to the earth to end the age after the seventh bowl has been poured out and not before.

Just remember this one underlying principle: Because Jesus has already satisfied God's wrath, then those who believe in Christ cannot and will not go through God's wrath. Therefore, we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. God's wrath for sin is a legal precedent, which Christ fulfilled. That said, God's wrath still rests upon the unbeliever. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God

Thanks, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the last trumpet scriptures. The last trumpet is always used in context of the second coming of Christ and that remains consistent through the Bible.

The trumpet accompanying Christ's return in every reference to it is indeed the last and final trumpet. No other trumpets come after the last trumpet my friend. Take another look at it with that in mind.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Only for those who are wilfully blind. Jesus taught that the Rapture would be IMMINENT, and that fact in itself refutes any nonsense about a post-tribulation Rapture.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come...Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh...Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:40-42,44; 25:13)

There are too many of these "rapture" threads going at the same time & I have decided to keep to one for now instead of jumping back & forth between 3. No doubt there will be another new one soon & we can have the same debate all over again.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Thanks, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the last trumpet scriptures. The last trumpet is always used in context of the second coming of Christ and that remains consistent through the Bible.

"And indeed if the trumpet gives an indistinct sound, who will prepare himself for battle?"

[recall, Numbers 10 shows differing "sounds [/patterns of the blowing]" for differing PURPOSES]

The trumpet accompanying Christ's return in every reference to it is indeed the last and final trumpet. No other trumpets come after the last trumpet my friend. Take another look at it with that in mind.

Well, let me just put it like this... the "Seventh [judgment] Trumpet" is not sounded at the END of the trib (like "the GREAT trumpet" IS, which is His "RETURN" to the earth [per Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 and other verses]).

At the time of the sounding of the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe/1st Vial," there still remains quite a bit of "time" in the Trib yrs left (when you read through what all the "7 Vials" consist of, and that they will unfold over more than merely a singular 24-hrs' time)... and my estimation is that these events will transpire over about the last year (more or less) of the 7-yr trib, according to my study of the chronology of Rev / trib events (if memory serves... I could be more precise if I had that study pulled up, which I don't ATM).


____________

Rev4:1 - "After this [after "the things WHICH ARE" in chpts 2-3] I looked and saw a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet [back in 1:10!] was saying, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.”" [1:1/1:19c/4:1... the "future" aspects of the Book, which "must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]"--i.e. the 7-yr trib]


[see the two distinct "soundings" here... one FIRST, the other NOT FIRST (sounding)?? ]

 

[Absolutely]

Quote DWM:
"No bride/wife" is being talked about in this passage (nor in any of the "wedding feast/supper" passages ["wedding FEAST/SUPPER" = earthly MK age]).
[this is NOT the "RAPTURE" But His RETURN to the EARTH]""

Yes it is
Now why would you leave out vs 40?

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

You were saying?

 

[Absolutely]

"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding," this means He is "an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point (which took place UP IN HEAVEN [Rev19:7!] *prior to* His "RETURN" to the earth), not one who is coming TO BE WED, at that point.


[WE will be returning WITH HIM, at that point... we are not the ones being spoken about in this passage or in the wedding feast/supper passages (those ppl in those passages never "lift off the earth" AT ALL)]



[p.s. I do not agree with your "multiple Raptures" idea, as you may recall]

Now read vs 40.

Uh huh

 

[Absolutely]

Thanks, but I'm going to have to disagree with your assessment of the last trumpet scriptures. The last trumpet is always used in context of the second coming of Christ and that remains consistent through the Bible.

The trumpet accompanying Christ's return in every reference to it is indeed the last and final trumpet. No other trumpets come after the last trumpet my friend. Take another look at it with that in mind.

No trumpet in acts 1
Or rev 14
Or mat 25
Or rev 19
None with lot or noah.

And what we also DO NOT SEE in the rapture verses (which excludes rev 19) are white horses,destroyed planet, Jesus coming in power ,or any AC type martial law.

 

[Absolutely]

Still waiting for DWM
TO unpack the 10 virgin parable.

 

[Absolutely]

"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding," this means He is "an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point (which took place UP IN HEAVEN [Rev19:7!] *prior to* His "RETURN" to the earth), not one who is coming TO BE WED, at that point.


[WE will be returning WITH HIM, at that point... we are not the ones being spoken about in this passage or in the wedding feast/supper passages (those ppl in those passages never "lift off the earth" AT ALL)]



[p.s. I do not agree with your "multiple Raptures" idea, as you may recall]

Rev 14
The only gathering of ripe fruit by a SICKLE with Jesus SITTING on a Cloud.

During the gt.

What are you combing that event with to get one rapture?

 

[Absolutely]

Not what I've said ^ .


I've said:

--the "BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" (of whom "the MARRIAGE" itself pertains [UP IN Heaven]),

...IS NOT...

--the "10 [or even 5] VirginS [/BridesmaidS] [PLURAL]" (to whom "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" [i.e. the EARTHLY MK age] pertains--He is NOT coming to "MARRY" PLURAL VirginS. )





["the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" is ALSO NOT "the guestS [PLURAL]" nor the "servantS [PLURAL]" of that particular time period (leading UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19--i.e. re: "servants" in/of the Trib yrs); ex. "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 (and its parallel passage in Matt24), where "RETURN FROM the wedding" means He is an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point... and that the ppl He's referring to in this passage are present on the earth upon His RETURN there (never having "lifted off the earth" since "Rapture/harpazo/SNATCH" does not pertain to them, but pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--i.e. the SINGULAR "A CHASTE VIRGIN" of 2Cor11:2 )]

Again
Who are the 10 virgins.?

And again,who is this one believer Jesus marries,paul?

 

[BenjaminN]

 

[BenjaminN]

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1... concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, ... 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless ... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

 

[Absolutely]

2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1... concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, ... 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless ... the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.


2 Thessalonians 2 (New King James Version)

1Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Those verses are agreed upon by both sides.

the difference with it or any doctrine, is that if one side has half the verses of the other side then it is a game changer.

the real debate is weather the Rapture verses are the coming on white horses (second coming).

it is that dynamic where we see postribs avoid or get really creative.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Quote DWM:
"No bride/wife" is being talked about in this passage (nor in any of the "wedding feast/supper" passages ["wedding FEAST/SUPPER" = earthly MK age]).
[this is NOT the "RAPTURE" But His RETURN to the EARTH]""

Yes it is
Now why would you leave out vs 40?

I don't leave it out.

I've listed it in every post where I'm referring to that passage (are you reading my posts?)

https://christianchat.com/threads/t...lessed-hope-of-the-saints.195611/post-4456514 [Post #525]

See also Post #535; See also Post #540 esp... where I wrote:

"ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of, etc" verses/passages (like in the one quoted above) are referring to His "Second Coming to the earth" designation (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... and [...]"

That's what I said.

And that has been my point in EVERY post I've made on that passage. I've NOT left it out.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

You were saying?

Read it again.

(Read all my posts again, where I refer to Lk12's verses... I INCLUDE it! It's NOT a "RAPTURE" passage. It is a "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" passage. We're returning WITH HIM [as "ALREADY-WED"], at that point; we are not the ones being spoken of IN that passage [who NEVER "lift off the earth"]. )

 

[Absolutely]

"when he will RETURN FROM the wedding," this means He is "an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom," at that point (which took place UP IN HEAVEN [Rev19:7!] *prior to* His "RETURN" to the earth), not one who is coming TO BE WED, at that point.


[WE will be returning WITH HIM, at that point... we are not the ones being spoken about in this passage or in the wedding feast/supper passages (those ppl in those passages never "lift off the earth" AT ALL)]



[p.s. I do not agree with your "multiple Raptures" idea, as you may recall]

then school me on mat 25 and rev 14.

i already know you reframed mat 25 (a vivid picture of the gathering of the bride)

 

[Absolutely]

[bold, underline, and bracketed insertions mine ^ ]

What "rearrange"? This is His "Second Coming to the earth" (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")



No "bride/wife" is being talked about in this passage (nor in any of the "wedding feast/supper" passages ["wedding FEAST/SUPPER" = earthly MK age]).

[this is NOT the "RAPTURE" But His RETURN to the EARTH]



"the Day of the Lord *ARRIVES* like a thief IN THE NIGHT"... and like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 (parallel the SEALS of Rev6 at the START of the trib)]" of a woman in labor... which corresponds with the ARRIVAL of "the man of sin" IN HIS TIME (Dan9:27a[26b] - "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]").

We will not be here then / for that... AT ALL.

This is talking about the TRIB YEARS.





ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/coming of, etc" verses/passages (like in the one quoted above) are referring to His "Second Coming to the earth" designation (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]")... and Rev16:14-16/Rev19:19,21 (Armageddon time-slot) is His Second Coming to the earth, when HE HIMSELF (not the "TIME-PERIOD / DOTL" ARRIVAL, which arrived EARLIER [just after "our Rapture"]), but is when HE HIMSELF IN HIS PERSON will "come AS A THIEF. [period]" (note: "IN THE NIGHT" is not added to that phrase when referring to HE HIMSELF and His PERSONAL *RETURN* to the earth; His "RETURN"/"Second Coming to the earth" is at the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect OF "the DOTL [TIME-PERIOD... very lengthy time-period, which ALSO includes the entire MK age as well]").

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also:

your assumption that Jesus is not referring to his OWN CHURCH is error.

do you realize what you are doing????

He SPECIFICALLY addresses them as his own.

You are telling me this is not the rapture???
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

 

[BenjaminN]

1 John 2 (New King James Version)

4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also:

your assumption that Jesus is not referring to his OWN CHURCH is error.

do you realize what you are doing????

He SPECIFICALLY addresses them as his own.

They come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (this is NOT a "Rapture" passage)... in the "IN THE NIGHT" [that is, in the TRIB yrs!] aspect OF the dotl time-period (the "DARK/DARKNESS/IN THE NIGHT" aspect... when WE will NOT be present on the earth, AT ALL)

You are telling me this is not the rapture???
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

No. (NOT the Rapture... but FOLLOWING our Rapture!) His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH" point in the chronology.