The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12

[Rondonmon]

Good day, Rondonmon!

The woman is not a real would, but is symbolically representing Israel.

The woman being pregnant is not a real pregnancy, but is symbolically representing 144,000 believing Israelites coming out of the unbelieving nation of Israel.

The dragon is symbolic representing Satan

Since the woman being pregnant and giving birth are symbolic in meaning, this would demonstrate that her giving birth cannot be referring to Jesus' literal birth.

In addition, the Male Child is said to be 'caught up' to God and His throne. As I described in the previous post, the word 'harpazo' means a force suddenly exercised, a snatching up. That said, Jesus was not snatched up in the sense of that word. In keeping with the context, Jesus would have been devoured, where the Male Child was not, but was caught up to God's throne before He could do that. It wasn't until later that Jesus ascended to God's right hand, which is not the description of 'harpazo.'

There are three groups who are said will rule with and iron scepter:

1). Jesus: And from His mouth proceeds a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and He will rule them with an iron scepter - Revelation 19:15

2). Overcomers within the Church: And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery"

3). The Male Child/144,000: And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter - Rev.12:5

Note: Remember, the woman is not literally giving birth, therefore it is not speaking about the literal birth of Jesus. Everything that is happening in Revelation 12 are future events which take place after the church been gathered.

All that said, the Male Child is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000 Israelite believers who come out of the unbelieving nation of Israel, ergo, Israel gives birth to the 144,000.

Jesus as the Male Child is a common knee-jerk reaction because of the reference to Israel as the woman giving birth. However, they forget about the fact that everything described in that chapter, the woman, the dragon, the Male Child, are all symbolism. Simply put, if the woman is not a literal woman, then her pregnancy is not a literal pregnancy and neither is the child she gives birth to literal.

The Male Child = 144,000 who come out of (gives birth to) the unbelieving nation of Israel

Hello brother Ahwatukee, its true, Revelation is a book of codes and symbolism, but that symbolism always has truths attached unto it. For example, the Dragon actually took 1/3 of the Angels with him, thus the 1/3 stars is about a TRUE EVENT. Likewise, the Male Child Jesus was "Birthed" by the nation Israel. And Jesus ascended to the Father, even if that power is by his own command, he was still taken to Heaven BY FORCE.

The 144,000 is not a real number my brother, it's Symbolism also, just as God uses 12 for Fulness and 10 for Completeness, we can see that 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 it's pure SYMBOLISM. We know that more than 144,000 Jews repent, we see that in Zechariah 13:8-9, where 1/3 of the Jews repent, and 2/3 refuse to repent and thus perish. So, just the 6 million Jews in Israel today would mean 2 million Jews flee Judea, these "144,000" in Rev. 7 are the Jews Jesus forewarned to flee Judea when they saw the AoD in Matthew 24:15-17. If more Jews pour into Israel then it could be more who flee from Judea to the Petra/Bozrah area.

Israel birthed Jesus, Satan took 1/3 of the Angels into rebellion with him. The Rev. 12 chapter has zero to do with the Rapture brother, that happens pre trib anyway. The Seals DO NOTHING they are just Jesus opening the Judgment book, then Prophesying whats about to befall mankind over the coming 42 months.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello brother Ahwatukee, its true, Revelation is a book of codes and symbolism, but that symbolism always has truths attached unto it. For example, the Dragon actually took 1/3 of the Angels with him, thus the 1/3 stars is about a TRUE EVENT. Likewise, the Male Child Jesus was "Birthed" by the nation Israel. And Jesus ascended to the Father, even if that power is by his own command, he was still taken to Heaven BY FORCE.

The 144,000 is not a real number my brother, it's Symbolism also, just as God uses 12 for Fulness and 10 for Completeness, we can see that 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000 it's pure SYMBOLISM. We know that more than 144,000 Jews repent, we see that in Zechariah 13:8-9, where 1/3 of the Jews repent, and 2/3 refuse to repent and thus perish. So, just the 6 million Jews in Israel today would mean 2 million Jews flee Judea, these "144,000" in Rev. 7 are the Jews Jesus forewarned to flee Judea when they saw the AoD in Matthew 24:15-17. If more Jews pour into Israel then it could be more who flee from Judea to the Petra/Bozrah area.

Israel birthed Jesus, Satan took 1/3 of the Angels into rebellion with him. The Rev. 12 chapter has zero to do with the Rapture brother, that happens pre trib anyway. The Seals DO NOTHING they are just Jesus opening the Judgment book, then Prophesying whats about to befall mankind over the coming 42 months.

As I pointed out, the woman is not a real woman, she is not really pregnant, she does not give birth to a literal male child, the dragon is not a real dragon, etc. It is symbolism representing what is literal.

The woman = The unbelieving nation of Israel

The Male Child = 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of Israel

The dragon = Satan

As I demonstrated, Jesus does not fit the criteria of being 'caught up' to God's throne based on the meaning of the word 'harpazo.' Jesus ascended. He was not snatched up!

The teaching that the 144,000 is not a real number, is a well known false teaching. Just like the thousand years is a literal thousand years. God means what He says. In Chapter 7, you've two groups mentioned, with the first group revealed to be 144,000 who are Israelites. Next you have a group which no man can count who are Gentiles. That fact that these are identified as different amounts demonstrates that they should be interpreted as it appears.

I know of what I am talking about, because been studying if for over 45 years. So, I've gone over all of the possibilities.

As I said, the woman is not a real woman, she's not really pregnant, she doesn't give literal birth, which is what you are saying when you make Jesus as a literal male child.

If you don't want to take advantage of what I know, then you can continue to believe what you are believing. But my mind will not be changed on this, because I've already gone over every possibility. This is the answer that the Spirit has given me regarding these issues.

Each time a seal is opened, there is a resulting plague of wrath, with the exception of a couple. It is the same with the trumpets and the bowl judgements. They each represent a plague of wrath.

First seal/rider on the white horse = emergence of the antichrist

Second seal/rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that people one another

3rd seal/rider on the black horse = world-wide famine

Etc., etc ......

These seals will literally be opened as is written, with each of their following results. Same for the trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[Magenta]

... So the necessary conditions for a woman to get pregnant,
you know, tadpoles and egg and placenta.

Tadpoles?

 

[soberxp]

Tadpoles?

I can't find any other suitable words.

Don't care about that.

What I care about is do you understand what I was trying to say?

I'm worried that other people won't look at the pictures and can't understand what I mean.

 

[Rondonmon]

As I pointed out, the woman is not a real woman, she is not really pregnant, she does not give birth to a literal male child, the dragon is not a real dragon, etc. It is symbolism representing what is literal.

The woman = The unbelieving nation of Israel

The Male Child = 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of Israel

The dragon = Satan

The Woman = Israel, the Male child = Jesus, the Dragon = Satan, who tried to kill the male child at birth.

As I demonstrated, Jesus does not fit the criteria of being 'caught up' to God's throne based on the meaning of the word 'harpazo.' Jesus ascended. He was not snatched up!

Of course, he was CAUGHT UP, it simply means by force brother, the force of the Holy Spirit, which is God, so even though Jesus is God, the Spirit of God can still be said to have FORCED him up to Heaven. Just like Jesus healed by the Holy Spirit, one demonstration of this power is Jesus going into the desert being LED by the Holy Spirit, then after Jesus obedience in the desert and fasting for 40 days, Jesus came out of the desert IN THE POWER of the Holy Spirit, thus he healed the sick, and lame via the force of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus was taken to Heaven by the FORCE of the Holy Spirit. Each has a role, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. People who insist and say that no FORCE needed to be used because Jesus is God is like saying the Holy Spirit did not heal those Jesus healed when we know Jesus told the Pharisees, who stated he healed by the power of demons (Beelzebub), that any sin would be forgiven, blasphemy of God the Father, or blasphemy of himself even, but that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (who healed those people) would not be forgiven. So, Jesus tells us right there bother, that the FORCE used to heal was the Holy Spirit. You are tripping yourself up here a wee bit imho, by overthinking the situation. Of course, Jesus was taken BY FORCE to heaven, it was by the force of the Holy Spirit. Jesus both ascended and was taken by force, you are just overthinking this, imho, to get to a preconceived understanding that the 144,000 is this male child, it is not brother.

 

[Rondonmon]

The teaching that the 144,000 is not a real number, is a well known false teaching. Just like the thousand years is a literal thousand years. God means what He says. In Chapter 7, you've two groups mentioned, with the first group revealed to be 144,000 who are Israelites. Next you have a group which no man can count who are Gentiles. That fact that these are identified as different amounts demonstrates that they should be interpreted as it appears.

One thousand years means one thousand years, we agree, by whenever 10 is used, even with 10,000 myriads x 10,0000 myriads, that simply means the COMPLETE (10 means complete/fullness) number of heavenly hosts, all the Angels etc.

So, God means what He says in Revelation unless he says The Woman = Israel or the 7 Headed Beasts means 7 nations that ruled over Israel and the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, or unless the 7 eyes and 7 spirits mean God sees all and is everywhere, or unless the 7 Stars mean 7 Angels, or unless Babylon means the WHOLE WORLD being Judged, or unless the Harlot means All False Religion from the beginning of time until Jesus' return, or unless the Star that falls via Wormwood is actually just a burning asteroid, the same one we saw via the Mountain being cast into the Sea in Seal #2, or unless the 10 Days of tribulation in Rev. 2:10 actually means for the complete Church Age. And I could go on and on, so the 144,000 can't be a metaphor in a book chock full of metaphors. Come on now!

The 1260, 1290, and 1335 are the key to all of the End Time Events

In chapter 7 we see the Jews who fled Judea at the 1290 AoD, they Flee Judea BEFORE the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem at the 1260, which is 30 days AFTER the 1290, each number, the 1335, the 1290, and the 1260 refers to how many days, from each event, it will be until Jesus' Second Coming, "ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS". Thus each number has a specific meaning, we know the 1260 is the number of days from the time the Holy peoples are conquered (Dan. 12:7) until all of these wonders Daniel was seeing ended (via the Second Coming of Jesus, of course). Thus the 1290, is 1290 days until all these wonders end and the 1335 is 1335 days until all these wonders end, thus the 1335 comes first, the 1290 comes next, then the 1260 (Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem) comes last out of the three numbers mentioned in Daniel 12. Seeing as that is the case, what is the 1290 ?

The AoD is placed (Image of the Beast) in the Temple AND the Sacrifice is TAKEN AWAY !! Basically, no one gets this, the Lord showed me this a couple of years ago. The Lord showed me that people look at men's traditions, and thus can't see what we need to be able to see, the reason I know this was I prayed this prayer about 5 years ago: Lord, why are we in these end times, and you called me unto Prophecy, yet we as the Church have 100s of understandings of Babylon, the 144,000, the Harlot, the end times etc. etc. yet there is really only ONE TRUTH in each case, why can't we as the Church agree on these truths? And I got this, "Ron, you guys already know everything" and it hit me like a ton of bricks what the Holy Spirit was telling me, we like the Pharisees are caught up in our MENS TRADITIONS, we see Prophecy/Revelation/Daniel as over our heads as young Christians so we read books by MEN, we hear understandings by MEN, and we attach ourselves to these ideas, and over time they seep into our hearts as TRUTHS, and thus God never gets asked, "WHAT DOES THIS MEAN Lord?" I remember reading the Gospels and simply saying, what does this mean God, and the Lord would show me, now I had to do the same thing with the book of Revelation, Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah etc. etc. Once I did that 5 or 6 years ago, God started showing me everything, BOOM...........BOOM, because I unblocked the roadblock of "MEN'S TRADITIONS". (Long tangent, LOL). Back to the 1290.

The 1290, is the False Prophet, not the Anti-Christ who comes to power 30 days later at the 1260. I got all this from studying the histories of all the peoples/kings in Daniel 11 because I came across a guy named Jason, who bribed Antiochus to become the High Priest of Israel, having his pious High Priest brother Onias III killed by bribing Antiochus. He then tried to "Hellenize" the Jews, which led to the Maccabean Revolt. Knowing Antiochus was a TYPE Anti-Christ, I was now stunned that I had stumbled onto the False Prophet TYPE by doing a chance Exegesis of Daniel 11s Kings. Jason's real name, like Jesus, is Yeshua, he took on the Greek name, he wanted the Jews to all be Hellenized, to take on the Greek culture, but the Maccabeans revolted.

Then it hit me, the END TIME False Prophet will likewise be a Jewish High Priest, God had rewarded my studies by revealing truth unto me. That is how I came to understand the 1335, 1290, and 1260. The 1290 happens BEFORE the 1260 and thus the Anti-Christ can not be the man who TAKES AWAY the Sacrifice and thus PLACES the AoD in the Temple. But a Jewish High Priest could do both of these things, and Rev. 13 tells us it's the False Prophet that places the IMAGE of the Beast (E.U. President) in the Temple and demands that all mankind worship him or die !! So, WHAT is the Sacrifice that is taken away 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and the MANY NATIONS in the Mediterranean Sea Region to become the 7th Head of the 7 Headed Beast?

CONTINUED

 

[Rondonmon]

CONTINUED

It was never a MEAT SACRIFICE !! Jesus (Man in Linen) and Gabriel would have never spoken about a profane meat sacrifice via the END TIMES, Jesus is our ONCE & FOR ALL SACRIFICE, the temple can't be profaned with an Image of the Beast unless it's CLEANSED FIRST, thus the Jews have to REPENT FIRST, and Zechariah 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 of the Jews repent and call God Father, and God calls them his children and that 2/3 refuse to repent and perish, NOW, what is the very next verse? LOL.........Zechariah 14:1 says the Day of the Lord (1260) Cometh, and that Jerusalem is SACKED [by the Anti-Christ of course].

Malachi 4:5-6 also tells us that Elijah is sent back BEFORE the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord to turn Israel back unto God, so the 1290 is this ANGRY False Prophet (Jewish High Priest) taking away or FORBIDDING Jesus Worship in the Temple and maybe in all of Jerusalem, then placing an Image of the Beast in the Temple of God. This AoD is a SIGN for the Jews to Flee Judea to the Mountains of the Petra/Bozrah area. QUESTION, how can the Jews flee Judea at this time if they have not REPENTED and Read Matt. 24? How would they know they need to flee Judea? ANSWER they wouldn't know. Another point that backed up my understandings as I was checking all of my facts, it never made any sense that the Jews got a WARNING as they were being Conquered, (LOL everyone admits that's true), but now understanding that the Jews have a 30-day WARNING SIGN, made perfect sense, they have 30 days to Flee Judea before the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem !! The Jewish High Priest (False Prophet) stops Jesus Worship and places an Image of the E.U. President in the Temple of God. This clearly tells us what the 1335 BLESSING is. Remember Malachi 4:5-6? Elijah (Two-witnesses) are sent back BEFORE the coming DOTL. Thus the 1335 Blessing is the Two-witnesses who show up 1335 days BEFORE the Second Coming ENDS ALL THESE WONDERS. I knew this fit, but did it jibe with scriptures in full, "TEST THE SPIRITS". It passed every test, including this one, the Beast's 1260 days have to start after the Two-witnesses 1260 days because the Two-witnesses DIE at the 2nd Woe and the Beast DIES at the 7th Via (end of the 3rd Woe). Thus, the Two-witnesses HAVE to show up BEFORE the Beast does !!

1335 = the Two-witnesses showing up 1335 days before the 2nd Coming ends all of these Wonders Daniel was seeing.

1290 = the False Prophet forbidding Jesus Worship and placing the AoD, 1290 days before the 2nd Coming.

1290 = the Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem, 1260 days before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

The 144,000 in Rev. 7 thus represents these FLEEING Jews who flee Judea JUST BEFORE the coming DOTL, which starts with the Revelation 8 Trumpet Judgments, the Seals are NOT ACTIONABLE. Jesus Opens the Seals and announces what is about to BEFALL MANKIND once all 7 Seals have been loosed from the book, where the Judgments can then be read.

The other group seen in Rev. 7 is the Church of Jesus that was Raptured pre 70th week, some, of course, are Jews also, like Paul and John, who is seen in Heaven with the great multitude, the Messianic Jews will be Raptured pre 70th week just like the Gentile Church is. So, the Seals are opened in Revelation 6, thus in Rev. 7 we see the Jews fleeing Judea, the 144,000 = ALL Israel, not every Jew, but every Jew who REPENTED, it is indeed a Metaphotic number that stands for completeness, 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness), x 10 x 10 = 144, 000 or ALL Israel. So, both Jews and Gentiles come unto Jesus on EACH SIDE of the Rapture, as Christians/Messianic Jews and also, both Jews and Gentiles come unto Jesus/God on the other side of the Rapture, the Jews who are told to flee Judea and protected in order to preserve Abrahams seed as promised, and in order for Jesus to have a Nation to be Anointed over as their King of kings just like prophecy states will happen. All the other nations bring forth presents yearly unto the King of kings. The Martyrs seen under the Altar at the 5th Seal (which happens over the whole 42 month period of the Beasts rule, which starts in Rev. 8 and ends in Rev. 16:19. it doesn't start in Rev. chapter 6 but with the 1st Trump) are the Gentile Church Remnant who repent AFTER the Rapture. Of course, a few Jews who repent and can't make it to the Petra/Bozrah area will be Martyred also, and I imagine a few smart Christians might make it into the Petra area with the Jews. BUT......Overall, the Jews flee to the Petra/Bozrah area, and the Gentiles who repent are Martyred.

 

[Rondonmon]

I know of what I am talking about, because been studying if for over 45 years. So, I've gone over all of the possibilities.

As I said, the woman is not a real woman, she's not really pregnant, she doesn't give literal birth, which is what you are saying when you make Jesus as a literal male child.

That's true, she is Israel and she birthed Jesus.

If you don't want to take advantage of what I know, then you can continue to believe what you are believing. But my mind will not be changed on this, because I've already gone over every possibility. This is the answer that the Spirit has given me regarding these issues.

I have been preaching for over 35 years myself brother, and Prophecy is my calling.

Each time a seal is opened, there is a resulting plague of wrath, with the exception of a couple. It is the same with the trumpets and the bowl judgements. They each represent a plague of wrath.

First seal/rider on the white horse = emergence of the antichrist

Second seal/rider on the red horse = Peace taken from the earth so that people one another

3rd seal/rider on the black horse = world-wide famine

Etc., etc ......

These seals will literally be opened as is written, with each of their following results. Same for the trumpets and bowl judgments.

The Seals OPEN the book where it can be read. 7 Seals meant a Letter from an Important King couldn't be tampered with, they usually just used 3, but 7 here signifies no once can stop what is Sealed from coming forth, but that no one can open this but Jesus Christ also. So means completeness also, thus this is SEALED COMPLETELY, no man con open it save Jesus.

Each Seal that is opened is one seal closer to the coming Judgments. With Each Seal Jesus announces what is coming, the first four Seals are the Anti-Christs actions over a 42 month period of time, he 1.) Conquers 2.) Takes away Peace/Brings War 3) His Wars bring Famine 4.) And finally, over 42 months he will bring Sickness/Death and the Grave/Hades.

Actually, the 5th Seal are actions by the Beast also, he Martyrs the Remnant Church over his 42-month reign of terror.

The 6th Seal is Jesus proclaiming that the Wrath of God is almost at hand, thus his Sun and Moon Prophetic uttering, which is also foretold in Joel 2:31, comes true with the 4th Trumpet which blots out the Sun, Moon, and Stars. Amen.

The 7th Seal sees silence in Heaven because JUDGMENT has arrived via the 7 Trumpets that are being readied. The Jews (144,000) thus Flee Judea just BEFORE the Judgments hit, we can even see that God assigns the Angels this very TASK of waiting until the Jews reach the Saftey of the Petra/Bozrah area: SEE BELOW:

Rev. 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

What HURTS the Earth, Sea & the Trees? The Trumpet Judgments, a 1/3 of the trees burn, the Mountain (asteroid) is cast into the sea and the earth is hurt also, of course. So, in essence, God has to the Angels to HOLD UP on the coming Judgments until the 144,000 (Fleeing Jews) have made it unto the "SAFE ZONE" of the Petra/Bozrah area, which is how God protects (Seals them in the head). We can see in Rev. 18:4 God calls on his people to COME OUT of her (Babylon...The World) lest you partake in her sins, and receive of her plagues. So, the 144,000 (2-5 million Jews who repent and flee as described by Zechariah 13:8-9 who make up 1/3 of Israel) are protected, and the 2/3 who do not will perish.

The Rev. 7 144,000 are the Jews who REPENTED who Flee just before the DOTL event, as seen in the Rev. 1-4 Trumpets.

God Bless

 

[Corban]

No, I do not believe "the woman" is "Mary".
...
Here's a very brief listing of those holding the view that "the man child" of Rev12 is "the Church [which is His body]" (which viewpoint I am also inclined toward believing as well), fairly certain there were [/are] more:

...

"Now if the male Man-child of Rev. xii. is to be regarded as solely representing the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens, as some interpreters affirm; or as representing the visible Christian Church exalted into political power, as taught by others, it were not easy to establish any parallelism, or any correspondence whatsoever between Zech. iii. and Rev. xii. But if the Man-child represents, as is the belief of many students of prophecy, the entire body of “the dead in Christ” raised, and the living in Christ who shall be changed, and both together caught up to meet Him in the air—or if, as I have suggested in the article above referred to—he is to be rather regarded as a portion of the Jewish people—of 'the remnant according to the election of grace' incorporated by conversion to Christ into the Church of this dispensation—and thus 'brought forth'—'born again,'—and then, 'caught up to God and to His throne,' in the rapture of the risen and living saints of 1 Thess. iv.—then, in either of these cases, I submit that this vision of Zechariah iii. corresponds most accurately."

I only read your posting in a cursory way as it was addressed to another. Not many commented on your posting, although it has much more merit than the general voice admits. So, if you'll allow, I hereby add some thoughts.

In my initial posting, I concentrated on the Woman and not the Man-Child. But we are not far apart. In my posting I proposed that the Man-Child is the Overcomers of the Church. Darby, Kelly et.al. maintained that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was for the whole Church. They had their proofs, but were forced to ignore some scriptures, or to wrest them to fit their line of thinking. Nevertheless, hoping not to write a book of counter, counter-counter and counter-counter-counter proposals, I will briefly out line why the Man-Child must be the Overcomers of the Church.

In my first posting in this thread, I set out to prove who the Woman of Revelation 12 was, and is. The task is relatively easier to define the Man-Child because he can only one of Two. Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 19:15 declare that our Lord Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. And Revelation 2:27 declares that the Overcomers of an apostate Church will be given this high task. We must only discover which one fits Revelation 12.

For intents and purpose of shortening my posting, I'll assume you have read my initial posting, and that whether you agree or not, you at least find some merit in the arguments. Whatever, I showed that the Woman could not be Mary, and is very unlikely Israel, despite some few similarities in Genesis 37. I pointed out that the Woman, who is at once both pregnant in heaven, and delivers her child on earth, has THREE SEEDS. (I) Those who "keep the commandments of God", (II) "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" and (III) the last and latest seed - the Man-Child who is immediately Raptured to the throne in heaven. If we can assign each seed, we will go a long way to discover who the Man-Child is. And I believe that if we can discover who the seed, that "keeps the commandments of God", is, the puzzle will be solved.

Few Christians are clear on Israel. They mostly fall into one of two doctrinal camps. Either, (i) Israel is replaced by the Church, and all the prophesies and promises given to Israel become property of the Church, or (ii) Israel is somehow brought to faith before the Lord comes and joins the Church or vice versa. But scripture is unequivocal. Israel and the Church stay separate entities throughout the Bible. Israel is named as the son of Jacob according to the flesh, while the Church, with its new birth by the Holy Spirit, is named "The New Man" and its members are partly taken "OUT OF" the Nation of Israel (Eph.2:15). Israel is concluded in unbelief by God, while the Church is the Household of FAITH. Israel rejects Christ till the end of the age while the Church embraces Christ. Israel persecutes the Church till their nation is dissolved in 70 AD. In Acts Israel and the Church are antagonists, and in the letters they are contrasted with the Church. In Revelation they remain separate entities and even in the eternal solution of New Jerusalem, one is the Walls of the City and depicted by precious stones, and one is the Gates depicted by pearls.

If this is true, what then gives God the right to restore Israel. They have broken the Law to the uttermost and reaped the curses. They are dispersed among foreign nations, hounded, persecuted and hated. They ahve vehemently refused Jesus of Bethlehem, and not only called for His murder illegally, but declared Caesar as their king. They are under severe chastisement as Hosea predicted, and even the Israelites who have returned to the fledgling State in Palestine are Lawless and in unbelief. So, on what basis can God forgive and restore Israel as Acts 15:14-16 plainly declares? The answer is in the first five verses of Deuteronomy 30. God, in this passage, assumes, with foresight, that Israel would end up like they are. And with the foreknowledge that FAITH in Christ would not be forthcoming, God reverts to the Covenant of Law which He made with Israel at the Sinai, with its modifications as made for dwelling in the Good Land. Israel, having no other course with which to be forgiven and restored, must depend on the Law.

And so Deuteronomy 30:1-5 becomes their last hope. But God, and most Christians, are not under any illusions. Israel is predicted to embrace the Beast, accept his overtures for the daily oblation, and even accept his move to dwell in, and set his idol-effigy in, the newly built Temple (2nd Thess.2:4). So just as the Overcomers of the Church are a minority and a "REMNANT", so God reserves for Himself a REMNANT of Israel who will shun all things secular, including the Beast, and return to what Moses was "preaching THAT DAY". That is, a REMNANT of Israel, as predcited in Romans 9 and 11, will turn to the Law and give God the grounds to fulfill His Promise of Deuteronomy 30:1-5. These are they "who keep the Commandments of God" in Revelation 12. They are those who are "sealed" in Revelation 7:1-8 and 9:4. They are those who must suffer the 1260 days in Revelation 12 and who are CONTRASTED again in Revelation 14:12.

The term, "commandments of God", or "my commandments" in the Old Testament, almost exclusively means the Law of Moses. And in the new Testament the Church is bidden to keep, NOT the commandments of God, but the commands of Jesus Christ. If this be the case, then the SEED of the Woman in Revelation 12 are;

1. The Man-Child - yet to be identified and defined
2. The "remainder of her seed which has the testimony of Jesus Christ", but which are not counted worthy as in Philippians 3, Luke 21 and Revelation 3
3. The "remainder of her seed which keeps the commandments of God" - the REMNANT of Israel, who, having rejected Christ, must ass through the Great Tribulation, yet preserved because God needs them to fulfill His requirements to restore Israel

Now let us turn our attention to the Man-Child and see the indicators in scripture.

1. The Devil makes no effort to attack the other two seeds UNTIL he is cast to earth and the Man-Child is in heaven. That is, his feels threatened, not by "the remainder of the woman's seed"
2. The Man-Child is last born of the three seeds - not first born
3. The name "Man-Child" can mean only one thing. While it is a "child" from a birth, it represents the stronger part as a "man" (1st Pet.3:7), and it represents the one who inherits. While "children" are all heirs, only those who are mature INHERIT.
4. The Man-Child is the reason that Satan is displaced from heaven. This did not happen when our Lord ascended. In Ephesians 2:2, decades after the ascension of Jesus, the Holy Spirit calls Satan, "the Prince of the power of the air". Only after the Man-Child is raptured is Satan designated to the earth
5. The displacement of Satan is three and one half years before the battle of Armageddon. Scripture says that after being cast down that he only had a "little time". This is a second proof that the ejection of Satan is at the end of the age when the Overcomers are Raptured, not when Christ was raptured
6. The displacement of Satan is not when our Lord Jesus was Raptured because in Hebrews, written decades after our Lord was Raptured, our Lord Jesus is our advocate before the throne and the accuser. "And he accused them day and night" but Jesus "ever lived to make intercession for them in heaven"
7. The Man-Child is the herald of the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God only comes when Christ, the King, comes. That happens at the end of the age
8. The Man-Child is called "they" - plural
9. The Man-Child needed the blood of the Lamb to overcome Satan. Jesus gets rid of His blood to overcome Satan
10. The Man-Child needed the blood of Jesus to overcome the accusations, Jesus did not
11. The Man-Child, in that "THEY" and "THEIR" testimony, and "THEIR" (soul)-Lives, cannot be Jesus (singular)

I propose that the Woman is New Jerusalem before she is consummated in Revelation 21 - as outlined in my first posting. And I propose that the Man-Child can only be the OVERCOMERS of the Church, who, in Revelation 2:27, will rule the Nations with a rod of iron.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I only read your posting in a cursory way as it was addressed to another. Not many commented on your posting, although it has much more merit than the general voice admits. So, if you'll allow, I hereby add some thoughts.

Good day, Corban!

According to the scripture, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven as a result of the 7th trumpet. In addition, the woman is cared for during the 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up God's wrath and believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the 144,000 cannot be those who overcome within the church. God's wrath is not for the church! It is for the unrepentant who continue to reject His Son. Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The church is not even mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath. The last time the word ekklesia/church was used is at the very end of chapter 3. This is not a coincidence, but a clue in God's word. The next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used, it in Rev.22:16.

Gathering of the church = Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered

The woman = The unbelieving nation of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10)

The Male Child = A collective name representing 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to).

The Dragon = Satan (orchestrating behind the scenes) - Rev.12:9 & 20:2

The seven heads = Seven hills upon which the woman sits. And they also represent a succession of seven kings

The Ten Horns = The ten horns represent ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast (The ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's statue)

The Great Tribulation Saints = These are they "who keep the Commandments of God" and upon whom the beast is given authority to make war against and to conquer, as described in Rev.13:7

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And I propose that the Man-Child can only be the OVERCOMERS of the Church [...]

Let me put it like this: those who are "saved/believers" (all those in this present age) ARE the "overcomers".




Not all in the "churchES" are SAVED persons.

Rev2-3 "...what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (is not the same thing as saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," which is made up of ONLY "believers/saved persons").


Thus, the "overcomers" are the SAVED/BELIEVERS (not merely a segment of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [to/of whom the "Rapture" SOLELY pertains... the "ONE BODY" will not be divided at the time of "our Rapture"... and Paul said, even to the "Corinthians," we [meaning, the Church which is His body] "shall ALL be changed, in a moment, ... at the last trump..."; and Paul also had said, "that WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH *or* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same 2 Grk words as in v.6 OF THIS CONTEXT, 1Th5:10,6], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] HIM..." . So I believe Scripture DOES NOT present the "Partial Rapture Theory," but that only mis-applied passages merely *seem* to...]).

The "ONE BODY" will be "caught UP/-AWAY" AT THE SAME TIME (<--the word "TOGETHER" connecting back to this verb, "caught up")... so this is like saying, "caught up" AS ONE (i.e. AT THE SAME TIME... the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).

I remain unconvinced of your "partial rapture" idea. = )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ The post I made the other day should go along with this ^ (Post #31):

[Post #646, different thread] https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4457131

 

[Corban]

Good day, Corban!

According to the scripture, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven as a result of the 7th trumpet. In addition, the woman is cared for during the 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period. Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments make up God's wrath and believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the 144,000 cannot be those who overcome within the church. God's wrath is not for the church! It is for the unrepentant who continue to reject His Son. Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and we must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath.

The church is not even mentioned in the narrative of God's wrath. The last time the word ekklesia/church was used is at the very end of chapter 3. This is not a coincidence, but a clue in God's word. The next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used, it in Rev.22:16.

Gathering of the church = Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion to where the church is gathered

The woman = The unbelieving nation of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10)

The Male Child = A collective name representing 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to).

The Dragon = Satan (orchestrating behind the scenes) - Rev.12:9 & 20:2

The seven heads = Seven hills upon which the woman sits. And they also represent a succession of seven kings

The Ten Horns = The ten horns represent ten kings who will rule concurrently with the beast (The ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar's statue)

The Great Tribulation Saints = These are they "who keep the Commandments of God" and upon whom the beast is given authority to make war against and to conquer, as described in Rev.13:7

A very fine day to you too sir,

Are you sure you've got the right guy? You've not addressed what was posted above. Where did I say that the 144,000 are the overcomers? The word "appointed" does not mean that it will not happen. If the president of a company "appoints" a new Finance Director and a week later he is accused of embezzlement, what will his "appointment" help? What did God's "appointment" help Ananias and Saphira, or the incestuous BROTHER in 1st Corinthians 5, or the dead saints who took the Lord's Table unworthily in 1st Corinthians 11, or Alexander the Coppersmith?

And, as to the Woman being defined by Genesis 37, you have yet to even address my proofs on posting # 7? With overwhelming evidence against you, I think you can't just dismiss the evidence? The only common thing between Genesis 37 and Revelation 12 is the number 12. Without answering posting # 7 you have no ground to claim anything. Your claims are void until you address the evidence against them.

Just look at your statement above;

The Male Child = A collective name representing 144,000 believing Israelites who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to).

1. Not a single bit of evidence given
2. "Believing Israelites" does not exist in the Bible. An Israelite who believes becomes part of the New Man, is a New Creature with the old passed away and all things new. And ethnicity, an old thing, is pointedly denied for those in Christ and the New Man (2nd Cor.5:17; Gal.3:28; Col.3:11)
3. How can an unbelieving Israel bring forth believing Israelites? I thought that that was the work of the Holy Spirit!
4. How can the dead bring forth life? Is this not reserved for the Living God?
5. With what power or authority do the dead, and those in the flesh, give birth to those who receive eternal life?
6. If Romans 11 has concluded ALL Israel in unbelief, on what basis do the 144,000 believe, and what happened to Dan?
7. And Israel CANNOT ever rule the Nations. It was taken from them in Matthew 21:43

The difficulties with your theory are enormous. But my understanding violates nothing. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 are Israelites. Dan can be missing (even if the reason is not given). God needs to preserve an Israelite REMNANT to fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5. This is predicted in Romans 9 and 11. In Revelation 12 and 14 they are CONTRASTED with those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" by being designated as "those who keep the commandments of God". No "faith" must be forced into the 144,000. They spend the whole 1260 days of Tribulation in a "wilderness" - for there is no rapture for Israel. They simply need preservation from the mechanisms of the Great Tribulation - as Revelation 9:4 says, and exactly as God did when Jerusalem was about to be ravished by Nebuchadnezzar (Ezek.9:4-6).

 

[Corban]

Let me put it like this: those who are "saved/believers" (all those in this present age) ARE the "overcomers".




Not all in the "churchES" are SAVED persons.

Rev2-3 "...what the Spirit saith unto the churchES" (is not the same thing as saying "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," which is made up of ONLY "believers/saved persons").


Thus, the "overcomers" are the SAVED/BELIEVERS (not merely a segment of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [to/of whom the "Rapture" SOLELY pertains... the "ONE BODY" will not be divided at the time of "our Rapture"... and Paul said, even to the "Corinthians," we [meaning, the Church which is His body] "shall ALL be changed, in a moment, ... at the last trump..."; and Paul also had said, "that WHETHER WE MIGHT WATCH *or* WHETHER WE MIGHT SLEEP [same 2 Grk words as in v.6 OF THIS CONTEXT, 1Th5:10,6], we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNION-with] HIM..." . So I believe Scripture DOES NOT present the "Partial Rapture Theory," but that only mis-applied passages merely *seem* to...]).

The "ONE BODY" will be "caught UP/-AWAY" AT THE SAME TIME (<--the word "TOGETHER" connecting back to this verb, "caught up")... so this is like saying, "caught up" AS ONE (i.e. AT THE SAME TIME... the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" - Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]).

I remain unconvinced of your "partial rapture" idea. = )

I understand. I'm sure you'll read it again and mull it because your argument about the Church and Churches is easily called into question. The Bible reveals Christ's Church (singular - Matthew 16:18). Because it is "a people for His Name" (Act.15:14), and for His testimony, and to be salt and light, it needs a Local and physical element. God has ordained a Church per city. These are the Churches (plural). But NOWHERE is it even alluded to that the CONTENT of the "Ekklesia" is different. The Greek word PRECLUDES fake Christians. It means "the gathering of the select ones". Even if there are imposters among them, they are NOT SELECTED and so are not regarded in the definition and meaning of the word.

This case is covered by the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares. The tares like like Wheat in all things until the fruit is ripe. But at no time does a Tare become Wheat. Men cannot see the difference, but God and His angels can. And the essential difference is that they each come from a totally different SEED. According to the immutable Law of Genesis 1:11-12, a species cannot mingle with another. They are EXCLUSIVE according to their seeds.

But there is another proof that casts doubt on your theory. If the slothful Christians of the Churches of Revelation are infidels, why does Christ call them to Overcome? Surely the first call is for them the BELIEVE! How can the infidel accomplish any of Christ's things without faith and rebirth and partaking of the divine nature. And how then, if those who do not overcome are imposters, did they once have Christ as their first love?

Lastly, if you had to remove your parenthesis, would you be able to show your point? Are you able to advance proof without additions? You say that the ENTIRE Church is Raptured. What then of Matthew 24:33-51?

• Our Lord opens with a parable. This must address the Church for only the Church is given to understand the Parables
• In verse 33-34 it is "YE". Our Lord was addressing His DISCIPLES privately
• There follows a warning of the state of the world about to face universal judgment
• Then our Lord introduces TWO in the same work and service. One is taken and one is left. The word "taken" is "paralambano", which means "taken as a well known companion"
• But verse 42 settles who the workers were. The disciples were "THEREFORE" to watch for "THEIR Lord"
• The "therefore" applies the servants and their work as the EXAMPLE for disciples and then comes a consequence. A House is BROKEN UP. What House we may ask? According to the the context and the conclusion reached, the HOUSE is the dwelling of the TWO workers
• A further proof then comes from verse 44. "YE" (the disciples) must THEREFORE be ready. That is, the broken House is that of the the DISCIPLES
• Verse 45 starts with "who then", making the servants of the preceding verses, PLUS the DISCIPLES who must watch and PLUS the faithful and wise servant of verse 45 all of the same house. This is confirmed by the term "HIS Lord"
• Verse 48 then presents us with the answer to probable imposters. It says "If THAT servant ... ". Which servant we may ask? "THAT servant" is the same servant who was once good and faithful, but HIS Lord delayed and he wilted. He goes from faithful to unfaithful - just like a Christian who loses his first love. He once had it and lost it.

These points, taken in their entirety show that;

1. The servant/workers are Christians. The number TWO is the number of Witness
2. The servant workers are DOING the same thing. Their ministering is equal. One is taken because of "COMPANIONSHIP", or because he was well-known
3. The resulting "TAKING" causes their HOUSE to be broken up. Their HOUSE can only be the Church for it is "THEIR Lord"
4. The good and faithful servant shows unequivocally that such a servant can be a Christian, serve well at first, and later, as complacency sets it, fall away. It is not his FAITH that turns, for he still says "MY Lord delayeth". It is his SERVICE that depletes.

I do think that this puts doubt on your theory. But I'm sure you've held it for a long time and it will not disappear immediately. I understand. I've been there many times. But we have to go according to the evidence in an ice cold way - and be ready to overturn our most cherished ideas when the evidence suggests.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You say that the ENTIRE Church is Raptured. What then of Matthew 24:33-51?
[...]
The servant workers are DOING the same thing. Their ministering is equal. One is taken because of "COMPANIONSHIP", or because he was well-known

A few things (repeated here briefly, but elaborated on in past posts):

--ALL of Matt24-25 is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (I've supplied reasons in the past);

--ALL "weeping and gnashing of teeth" references pertain to [their] NOT entering the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19; and does NOT pertain to the time-slot surrounding "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [which occurs before SEAL #1 at the START of the Trib yrs; the SEALS are EQUIVALENT to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse]); His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK age is the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse (and the time-period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO *THAT*);

--the "parables" in the gospels are mostly about "Israel" (sometimes even about their "future"); just because they did/do not understand them at the time spoken/written (and even "now" do not), does not mean they will NEVER understand them (I believe FOLLOWING "our Rapture" that the believing remnant of Israel will come to understand them);

--I believe "the wise" in Dan12:1-4,10 (speaking of a very specific time-period in that passage: vv.6-7,1,13, etc) refer to "the wise [OF ISRAEL]"--at that "future" time-period... parallel to what we see in the Olivet Discourse FOLLOWING "our Rapture"; and that Dan12:1-4 is NOT speaking of a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the dead]," but rather, "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" like in Ezek37:12-14,21-23 and Rom11:15[25] and Hos5:14-6:3 and Isa16:14-21, (and Lk21:24b), etc etc...])

--as for the word "paralambano" in this passage (see below)


As I've said in past posts, it depends on WHO is DOING the "TAKING [/TOOK; G3880 - paralambano]" and TO WHAT END.

In the case of Matt24, it is the ANGELS [/REAPERS] who've been told (in Matt13) to "GATHER YE *first* THE TARES" (same time-slot as the Matt24 passage; as the disciples' Q of Him in v.3 [of Matt24] was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13 [context: NOT "our Rapture," but His Second Coming to the earth time-slot]).


...SO... it depends on WHO is DOING the "G3880" and TO WHAT END... for example, are the following instances "chummy" and to "chummy ends"?? [No.] :

G3880 - paralambano -

Matthew 4:5 V-PIA-3S
GRK: Τότε παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ
NAS: the devil took Him into the holy
KJV: taketh him up into the holy
INT: then takes him the

Matthew 4:8 V-PIA-3S
GRK: Πάλιν παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ
NAS: the devil took Him to a very
KJV: taketh him up into an exceeding
INT: Again takes him the

Matthew 27:27 V-APA-NMP
GRK: τοῦ ἡγεμόνος παραλαβόντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν
NAS: of the governor took Jesus
KJV: of the governor took Jesus
INT: of the governor having taken with [them] Jesus

- "Then the soldiers of the governor, having taken [G3880 - paralambano / paralabontes] Jesus into the Praetorium, gathered the whole cohort before Him."



[could have made this post much longer, but hoped to be somewhat "brief" here = ) ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT to correct this reference...

and Isa16:14-21,

should read: "Isa26:15-21"

 

[Corban]

A few things (repeated here briefly, but elaborated on in past posts):

--ALL of Matt24-25 is speaking of events FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (I've supplied reasons in the past);

--ALL "weeping and gnashing of teeth" references pertain to [their] NOT entering the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19; and does NOT pertain to the time-slot surrounding "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [which occurs before SEAL #1 at the START of the Trib yrs; the SEALS are EQUIVALENT to "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of in His Olivet Discourse]); His Second Coming to the earth FOR the MK age is the Subject Jesus is covering in His Olivet Discourse (and the time-period immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO *THAT*);

--the "parables" in the gospels are mostly about "Israel" (sometimes even about their "future"); just because they did/do not understand them at the time spoken/written (and even "now" do not), does not mean they will NEVER understand them (I believe FOLLOWING "our Rapture" that the believing remnant of Israel will come to understand them);

--I believe "the wise" in Dan12:1-4,10 (speaking of a very specific time-period in that passage: vv.6-7,1,13, etc) refer to "the wise [OF ISRAEL]"--at that "future" time-period... parallel to what we see in the Olivet Discourse FOLLOWING "our Rapture"; and that Dan12:1-4 is NOT speaking of a "physical/bodily resurrection [from the dead]," but rather, "Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED" like in Ezek37:12-14,21-23 and Rom11:15[25] and Hos5:14-6:3 and Isa16:14-21, (and Lk21:24b), etc etc...])

--as for the word "paralambano" in this passage (see below)


As I've said in past posts, it depends on WHO is DOING the "TAKING [/TOOK; G3880 - paralambano]" and TO WHAT END.

In the case of Matt24, it is the ANGELS [/REAPERS] who've been told (in Matt13) to "GATHER YE *first* THE TARES" (same time-slot as the Matt24 passage; as the disciples' Q of Him in v.3 [of Matt24] was BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN to them about in Matt13 [context: NOT "our Rapture," but His Second Coming to the earth time-slot]).


...SO... it depends on WHO is DOING the "G3880" and TO WHAT END... for example, are the following instances "chummy" and to "chummy ends"?? [No.] :

G3880 - paralambano -

Matthew 4:5 V-PIA-3S
GRK: Τότε παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ
NAS: the devil took Him into the holy
KJV: taketh him up into the holy
INT: then takes him the

Matthew 4:8 V-PIA-3S
GRK: Πάλιν παραλαμβάνει αὐτὸν ὁ
NAS: the devil took Him to a very
KJV: taketh him up into an exceeding
INT: Again takes him the

Matthew 27:27 V-APA-NMP
GRK: τοῦ ἡγεμόνος παραλαβόντες τὸν Ἰησοῦν
NAS: of the governor took Jesus
KJV: of the governor took Jesus
INT: of the governor having taken with [them] Jesus

- "Then the soldiers of the governor, having taken [G3880 - paralambano / paralabontes] Jesus into the Praetorium, gathered the whole cohort before Him."



[could have made this post much longer, but hoped to be somewhat "brief" here = ) ]

O.K. To circumvent my theory, you have moved Matthew 24 to future to the Rapture. All well and good, but ... you have problems.
Matthew 24 is clearly addressed to His DISCIPLES. No Jews and no Gentiles were present. "His disciples came to Him and He said to THEM". And in verse 3 it even says "privately". So not only is the Parable of the Fig Tree directed at His disciples, but no-one else even heard it. And far from reading the writings of the Apostles, the Jews wanted to kill them. So the Parable of the Fig Tree must be directed at the hearers.
Next, the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus is a journey from the Father's throne above the highest heavens to Mount of Olives, Jerusalem. The last stage from the clouds to Mt. Olives is "like lightning ... with power and great glory - seen from east to west". But Matthew 24 tells of a THIEF coming and going at an unexpected and unnoticed hour. A Thief comes for something precious. And the something precious was a faithful servant. I dare say this is the "taking of some believers in secret
Next, you did not address my arguments about the "House broken up", "Their Lord", "My Lord" and "His Lord". They are quite decisive.

Now let us address "paralambano" - for which you gave a good argument. But if you noticed, I did not say that the meaning of the word was intimate friendship, although the same word is used for Joseph taking Mary with to Egypt. The sense is of people who have traveled a road together. That is, they are intimate by association. And this is valid for the positive, as well as the negative. Who are more acquainted that our Lord Jesus and Satan? Though they be mortal enemies, their history goes back to Jesus, creator, and Firstborn of creation, Who no doubt created Lucifer in all his glory (Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28), and watched from close up as he fell.

The use of the word "paralambano" in Matthew 24 is, within the context, CONTRASTED with "airo" in verse 39. "Airo" means "to snatch away" like Satan snatches the word of the kingdom from hearts in Luke 8:12. It can be used positively like "taking" someone's yoke, but it can also be used aggressively like "our sins were snatched away on the cross". The meaning in Matthew 24:39 is clear. The flood "snatched away" the lives of those caught unawares. That the Thief in Matthew 24 is our Lord is clear, and "paralambano" in this context is also clear. The one taken was one who Jesus knew well, which is confirmed in multiple other scriptures where, at the judgement Seat, Jesus "knows some" and does not "know others" (Matt.7 & 25)

I believe I have met your arguments.

 

[Rondonmon]

I only read your posting in a cursory way as it was addressed to another. Not many commented on your posting, although it has much more merit than the general voice admits. So, if you'll allow, I hereby add some thoughts.

In my initial posting, I concentrated on the Woman and not the Man-Child. But we are not far apart. In my posting I proposed that the Man-Child is the Overcomers of the Church. Darby, Kelly et.al. maintained that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was for the whole Church. They had their proofs, but were forced to ignore some scriptures, or to wrest them to fit their line of thinking. Nevertheless, hoping not to write a book of counter, counter-counter and counter-counter-counter proposals, I will briefly out line why the Man-Child must be the Overcomers of the Church.

In my first posting in this thread, I set out to prove who the Woman of Revelation 12 was, and is. The task is relatively easier to define the Man-Child because he can only one of Two. Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 19:15 declare that our Lord Jesus will rule with a rod of iron. And Revelation 2:27 declares that the Overcomers of an apostate Church will be given this high task. We must only discover which one fits Revelation 12.

For intents and purpose of shortening my posting, I'll assume you have read my initial posting, and that whether you agree or not, you at least find some merit in the arguments. Whatever, I showed that the Woman could not be Mary, and is very unlikely Israel, despite some few similarities in Genesis 37. I pointed out that the Woman, who is at once both pregnant in heaven, and delivers her child on earth, has THREE SEEDS. (I) Those who "keep the commandments of God", (II) "those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ" and (III) the last and latest seed - the Man-Child who is immediately Raptured to the throne in heaven. If we can assign each seed, we will go a long way to discover who the Man-Child is. And I believe that if we can discover who the seed, that "keeps the commandments of God", is, the puzzle will be solved.

Hello brother Corban, allow me to make a few counterpoints. I will start off via "The Sign in Heaven", its not the Woman per se that is in Heaven, it's about Satan the dragon. Each time the 7 Headed Beast is described in the book of Revelation, we get a DESIGNATION as per to who is being spoken about via the CROWNS or NO CROWNS, and where they are described as being. In other words, Satan in Rev. 12 resides in Heaven, so the SIGN in Heaven is designating Satan as the one being spoken of here, the CROWNS are on the 7 Heads because like Satan stated to Jesus in Luke 4, he s over all the kingdoms of the whole world. In Rev. 13 the Beast ARISES from the Sea? (Mediterranean Sea Region Beast) and the CROWNS are on the 10 Horns (Europe = 10, it is not 10, the number 10 is a stand-in for completeness), thus this Rev. 13 Beast is a MAN who arises from the E.U. and then Conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) to become the Beast or the 7th Head of the 7 Headed Figurative Beast. Finally, the Scarlet Colored Beast comes out of the Bottomless Pit, he was over the 6, NOW he's in the pit where God placed him for the duration of the Church Age whilst there was no Israel (God stated they were as Dead Men's Bones), and after the Rapture pre 70th week, this Beast (Demon) named Apollyon will be released, he will regain his STRONGHOLD/Principality over the MSR and Israel once again at the 1st Woe, when he is released. So, the SIGN in Heaven is about where Satan resides when he's trying to kill baby Jesus (Manchild, and I think the better translation is actually Male Child, for what its worth)

Backtracking a wee bit, the Rapture is for the WHOLE CHURCH but just like Jesus stated, half of the Church do not have their lamps filled with oil, thus they will miss the wedding, NOTICE: 5 out of the 10 "VIRGINS" (Christians) miss the wedding, AND 1 is TAKEN and one is LEFT. Bith = the exact same ratio, 50 percent. So, the Church who are ready are all taken, those who were playing Church are not going to make the wedding. So, if there are 2 billion Christians, like 1 billion will not make it. Then, they will accept the Mark of the Beast or lay down their lives for Christ. The REMNANT in Rev. 12:17 can not be Jews, it can only be the REMNANT Church (meaning the Church is in Heaven). The reason I say this is Stan gets ANGRY that he can't get at the Woman (Israel) and thus he turns to go after the Remnant of HER SEED (Jesus was her seed), the ones who gave the testimony of Jesus AND keep his Commandments. So, thus can not be the 2/3 of the Jews who do not Repent, because Zechariah 13:8-9 says they will perish, and it can't be the 1/3 who do Repent (The Woman) because God protects them in the Petra/Bozrah area, so THE REMNANT can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, Amen. The Church was Raptured, the word Remnant means a SMALL PART that is left of something.

The Overcommers are anyone who overcomes by the blood of Jesus.

 

[Major]

The great "Wonder" "Woman" - Revelation 12

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Let's discuss these passages from the Bible.

Some questions to think about:

Who is this great "Wonder" "Woman"?

Who is this great "Red" "Dragon"?

Who is this "child"?

What is the "Sun"?

What is the "moon"?

What are the "twelve stars"?

What are the "seven heads"?

What are "the ten horns"?

What are the "seven crowns" upon the "seven heads"?

What is the "tail"?

What is the "third part"?

What is "of the stars of Heaven"?

What is the "rod of Iron"?

What is this "caught up to God and to His throne"?

The "Woman" is Israel.

The Dragon is Satan.

The "Child" is Jesus Christ.

The " "Sun" - "moon" and "twelve stars" are the identifying marks of Israel as seen in Genesis 37:9-10.

The "seven heads and "the ten horns" suggests the perfection of wisdom which characterized the creation of Satan from Ezek. 28:12.
Ten Horns suggests to us the final division of the Revive Roman Empire which will be dominated by Satan in his final effort to dominate the world.

"His TAIL" = a visual term to identify Satan from John

The "Third Part" = 1/3. Literal. It also tells us of the vast extent of the rebellion in heaven when 1/3 of the angels followed Satan in his rebellion.

The "Rod of Iron" = Judgment! Psalms 2:9.

"Caught up to God" = The child of Israel, Jesus Christ was ascended to heaven to return to the Father.

 

[Corban]

Hello brother Corban, allow me to make a few counterpoints. I will start off via "The Sign in Heaven", its not the Woman per se that is in Heaven, it's about Satan the dragon. Each time the 7 Headed Beast is described in the book of Revelation, we get a DESIGNATION as per to who is being spoken about via the CROWNS or NO CROWNS, and where they are described as being. In other words, Satan in Rev. 12 resides in Heaven, so the SIGN in Heaven is designating Satan as the one being spoken of here, the CROWNS are on the 7 Heads because like Satan stated to Jesus in Luke 4, he s over all the kingdoms of the whole world. In Rev. 13 the Beast ARISES from the Sea? (Mediterranean Sea Region Beast) and the CROWNS are on the 10 Horns (Europe = 10, it is not 10, the number 10 is a stand-in for completeness), thus this Rev. 13 Beast is a MAN who arises from the E.U. and then Conquers the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR) to become the Beast or the 7th Head of the 7 Headed Figurative Beast. Finally, the Scarlet Colored Beast comes out of the Bottomless Pit, he was over the 6, NOW he's in the pit where God placed him for the duration of the Church Age whilst there was no Israel (God stated they were as Dead Men's Bones), and after the Rapture pre 70th week, this Beast (Demon) named Apollyon will be released, he will regain his STRONGHOLD/Principality over the MSR and Israel once again at the 1st Woe, when he is released. So, the SIGN in Heaven is about where Satan resides when he's trying to kill baby Jesus (Manchild, and I think the better translation is actually Male Child, for what its worth)

Backtracking a wee bit, the Rapture is for the WHOLE CHURCH but just like Jesus stated, half of the Church do not have their lamps filled with oil, thus they will miss the wedding, NOTICE: 5 out of the 10 "VIRGINS" (Christians) miss the wedding, AND 1 is TAKEN and one is LEFT. Bith = the exact same ratio, 50 percent. So, the Church who are ready are all taken, those who were playing Church are not going to make the wedding. So, if there are 2 billion Christians, like 1 billion will not make it. Then, they will accept the Mark of the Beast or lay down their lives for Christ. The REMNANT in Rev. 12:17 can not be Jews, it can only be the REMNANT Church (meaning the Church is in Heaven). The reason I say this is Stan gets ANGRY that he can't get at the Woman (Israel) and thus he turns to go after the Remnant of HER SEED (Jesus was her seed), the ones who gave the testimony of Jesus AND keep his Commandments. So, thus can not be the 2/3 of the Jews who do not Repent, because Zechariah 13:8-9 says they will perish, and it can't be the 1/3 who do Repent (The Woman) because God protects them in the Petra/Bozrah area, so THE REMNANT can only be the Remnant Gentile Church, Amen. The Church was Raptured, the word Remnant means a SMALL PART that is left of something.

The Overcommers are anyone who overcomes by the blood of Jesus.

I appreciate your understanding of the matter. I will comment on a few points, but my understanding, with scriptures is in posting # 7. As in any debate, you'll have to answer the points established there before convincing me of yours above. Even more, your points above I will show to be doubtful.

• Revelation 12 concerns BOTH "signs". Verse 1-2 concern the Woman, and verse 3 the "sign" which is a Dragon. But we know that Satan is an angel, so "Dragon" is symbolic. Thus also the Woman is symbolic.
• I understand 7 (seven) to be the number of completion in time. The number 12 (twelve) is the number of completion in eternity.
• Satan's rule is limited to a period before Adam (Isa.14 and Ezek.28), PLUS six-one-thousand-year periods after the earth is given to man but who conceded it to Satan = 7
• Israel - 12 Tribes - receive the Promised Land for "an everlasting possession". The Church - 12 Apostles - will reign for ever (Rev.22:5)
• The Beast arises from the sea, we agree. But 2nd Peter 1:20 forbids private interpretation. From were do you get the "Mediterranean? Much more, the "sea" in Parable is the Gentile Nations (Isa.9:1; Ezek.26:3-5). The Beast is a Gentile king, as Daniel 9:26 predicted
• The Beast cannot conquer the E. U. to get power. His power comes VOLUNTARILY from 10 kings (Rev.17:12-13)
• The Beast was one of FIVE kings who ruled at John's time, and had died. One was still ruling, and one was to come a short while - making seven Gentile Roman kings. The Beast is the eigth. Again, we must interpret scripture with scripture, not fallen men's thoughts. "Eight" is the number of resurrection because Christ was raised "on the morrow after the Sabbath". So also the Beast, he is of the five Caesars already dead during John's time, and will be resurrected "out of time" as the last Caesar. The Abyss is Hades (Matt.12:40)

I will advance, as my answer to your second paragraph, my posting # 7. We can compare notes after you have read it.

Thanks for the exchange brother. More than one will profit from it. Go well.