Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Thessalonians 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

verse 14: God brings with [G4862] Him the souls of the dead in Christ - to be "reunited" with their resurrected bodies.

Here's another place where I differ with you slightly...

Whilst the "caught up together" part speaks of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR--at a specific point in time)... the line talking about "shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is talking about His "RETURN" to the earth (later point in time), which is just making the point that THEY (the DEAD in Christ, just because they've died beforehand) will NOT be LEFT OUT of such a thing/event.



G4862 ["with" use in THIS context] refers to "UNIONed-with" / "IDENTIFIED-with" ... and only applies to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"--to whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains!)...

...whereas another [distinct] "with" word (G3326) refers to, for example, when the "5 [of the 10] VirginS [PLURAL]" will "ACCOMPANY [G3326] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (Matt25:10), the earthly MK age, but which does not refer to "UNIONed-with" / "IDENTIFIED-with" as the "with [G4862]" word does, that applies to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [believers of "this present age [singular]"--i.e. the "BETROTHED / Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"]



So that one part of the sentence/context is just saying, it is not going to be [true for] ONLY the "STILL-ALIVE" ones (but how "the DEAD in Christ" will ALSO PARTICIPATE in that later thing... here's HOW)

 

[ewq1938]

1 Thessalonians 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

verse 14: God brings with Him the souls of the dead in Christ - to be "reunited" with their resurrected bodies.

verse 17: What does "shall be caught up together with them" mean to you?

That the living are brought to be with the others that are waiting for them in the clouds. Since the Greek word G4862 σύν
sun means "union" the verse can be understood as:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to have union/be united with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That makes sense since Christ beings the resurrected with him from heaven and that the resurrection bodies are already in heaven according to Paul. There is nothing that places the resurrected dead on the Earth at the time of the rapture.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

 

[Truth7t7]

1 Thessalonians 4:

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

verse 14: God brings with Him the souls of the dead in Christ - to be "reunited" with their resurrected bodies.

verse 17: What does "shall be caught up together with them" mean to you?

Gary the Lord returns in fire and final judgement, all mens works will be judged by this fire, the righteous pass through the fire, the wicked are caught in it, it's my belief that at the voice of the 7th angel/trump time ceases Rev 10:6-7, it's that simple

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[GaryA]

That the living are brought to be with the others that are waiting for them in the clouds. Since the Greek word G4862 σύν
sun means "union" the verse can be understood as:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together to have union/be united with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

That makes sense since Christ beings the resurrected with him from heaven and that the resurrection bodies are already in heaven according to Paul. There is nothing that places the resurrected dead on the Earth at the time of the rapture.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.

Okay...

How do you interpret "the dead in Christ shall rise first" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ?

 

[GaryA]

Here's another place where I differ with you slightly...

Whilst the "caught up together" part speaks of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR--at a specific point in time)... the line talking about "shall God bring WITH [G4862] Him" is talking about His "RETURN" to the earth (later point in time), which is just making the point that THEY (the DEAD in Christ, just because they've died beforehand) will NOT be LEFT OUT of such a thing/event.



G4862 ["with" use in THIS context] refers to "UNIONed-with" / "IDENTIFIED-with" ... and only applies to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"--to whom "our Rapture" SOLELY pertains!)...

...whereas another [distinct] "with" word (G3326) refers to, for example, when the "5 [of the 10] VirginS [PLURAL]" will "ACCOMPANY [G3326] Him into the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (Matt25:10), the earthly MK age, but which does not refer to "UNIONed-with" / "IDENTIFIED-with" as the "with [G4862]" word does, that applies to US / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY [believers of "this present age [singular]"--i.e. the "BETROTHED / Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]"]



So that one part of the sentence/context is just saying, it is not going to be [true for] ONLY the "STILL-ALIVE" ones (but how "the DEAD in Christ" will ALSO PARTICIPATE in that later thing... here's HOW)

I believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 is singular in 'event' terms - i.e. - everything in these verses is tied to the same 'event' - or - there is only one 'event' associated with these verses - which is 'the coming of the Lord' (verse 15).

 

[Ruby123]

'jest' you say...

Ephesians 5:

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

(I couldn't resist.)

~

This is what I believe:

'pre-trib' timeframe: ~2000 years ago
'mid-trib' timeframe: ~1000 years ago

A 'pre-trib' rapture is impossible.
A 'mid-trib' rapture is impossible.

The three accounts of the Olivet Discourse [clearly] show us that the 'Great Tribulation' (our words for what Jesus defined in Matthew 24:21) started circa ~70 A.D.

We are in it now.

It will end in the future.

The worst is yet to come.

It is not 7 years.

It is not 3.5 years.

It is ~2000 years.

(remember: God's Timing)

The prophecy of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse "unfolds" over a 2000-year span of time - not a 7-year or 3.5-year span of time.

(remember: God's Timing)

Some of it is past history.

Some of it is yet future.

There is no 7-year [anything] in End Times Prophecy. The only 3.5-year End Times prophetic 'event' is the Two Witnesses - which scripture [clearly] shows us is "sandwiched-in-between" the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ.

The Two Witnesses bring about the Trumpet Events by/during their testimony and prophecy.

Revelation 13:1-7 is talking about the Dark Ages.

The "souls under the altar" in Revelation 6:9 are the martyrs from that 'era'. The 'fellowservants' in Revelation 6:11 'that should be killed as they were" are modern-era martyrs beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

All of these martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

Here is a partial order-of- events / time-line:




All of this may be found in the [Bible] 'Study' section of my website.

Isn't two thousand years up in 2030AD?

 

[GaryA]

Gary the Lord returns in fire and final judgement, all mens works will be judged by this fire, the righteous pass through the fire, the wicked are caught in it, it's my belief that at the voice of the 7th angel/trump time ceases Rev 10:6-7, it's that simple

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And - I keep telling you that your misinterpretation of [certain] passages of scripture are causing you to not properly understand the millenium.

The earth is not totally destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ.

And, every verse in the Bible that mentions 'fire' is not descibing or pointing to such an idea.

I really wish you would learn [how] to join a discussion - and stay on topic - instead of posting your entire belief system in every post...

 

[ewq1938]

Okay...

How do you interpret "the dead in Christ shall rise first" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 ?

It's straightforward. The dead in Christ resurrect before the living are changed and raptured. "rise" in that verse is a resurrection not a rapture/rising upwards into the sky.

 

[GaryA]

Isn't two thousand years up in 2030AD?

Indeed.

And, in case I did not mention it before - I found that video VERY interesting! (I thought for sure I told you that.)

 

[Ruby123]

Indeed.

And, in case I did not mention it before - I found that video VERY interesting! (I thought for sure I told you that.)

Yes you did say that you liked the Berisheet Prophecy video if that is the one you are talking about or are you talking about Before the Wrath on vimeo? That was good too.

 

[GaryA]

It's straightforward. The dead in Christ resurrect before the living are changed and raptured. "rise" in that verse is a resurrection not a rapture/rising upwards into the sky.

I agree that 'rise' is referring to resurrection - of physical bodies.

But you are saying they 'rise' into a 'spiritual' body in heaven?

(Which does not fit the context of the passage.)

Never having a 'physical' body again (like Christ) after death?

 

[GaryA]

Yes you did say that you liked the Berisheet Prophecy video if that is the one you are talking about or are you talking about Before the Wrath on vimeo? That was good too.

Berisheet

 

[ewq1938]

A spiritual body does not mean intangible "spirit", just that it's spiritual in nature but is completely a physical body. Paul also uses the term Celestial.

The dead in Christ are in heaven without bodies but Paul says the new body is in heaven as well so when the resurrection happens, it happens in heaven. They do not go back to their old bodies.

I agree that 'rise' is referring to resurrection - of physical bodies.

But you are saying they 'rise' into a 'spiritual' body in heaven?

(Which does not fit the context of the passage.)

Never having a 'physical' body again (like Christ) after death?

 

[shittim]

Isn't two thousand years up in 2030AD?

the Hebrew calendar was in use when that was written, based on lunar months

 

[GaryA]

A spiritual body does not mean intangible "spirit", just that it's spiritual in nature but is completely a physical body. Paul also uses the term Celestial.

The dead in Christ are in heaven without bodies but Paul says the new body is in heaven as well so when the resurrection happens, it happens in heaven. They do not go back to their old bodies.

But, this does not fit well into the context of the passage - which indicates that the 'resurrection' occurs after the Lord has descended to earth from heaven.

And, this would be after the "bringing" of saints "with him" (verse 14).

 

[ewq1938]

But, this does not fit well into the context of the passage - which indicates that the 'resurrection' occurs after the Lord has descended to earth from heaven.

And, this would be after the "bringing" of saints "with him" (verse 14).

The rapture happens after Christ is at the clouds of the Earth but the resurrection happens before that.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Christ leaves heaven and the resurrection happens so they can follow Him. I doubt there is even one second inbetween these events.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Again, the last trump sounds which signals the second coming and the dead resurrect and then the change of the living happens just prior to their being moved which is a rapture. It's all happening very very quickly.

Christ leaves heaven, the dead resurrect and follow Him and the living are changed and raptured to meet THEM in the clouds.

 

[GaryA]

The rapture happens after Christ is at the clouds of the Earth but the resurrection happens before that.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Christ leaves heaven and the resurrection happens so they can follow Him. I doubt there is even one second inbetween these events.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Again, the last trump sounds which signals the second coming and the dead resurrect and then the change of the living happens just prior to their being moved which is a rapture. It's all happening very very quickly.

Christ leaves heaven, the dead resurrect and follow Him and the living are changed and raptured to meet THEM in the clouds.

Not buying it.

The 'grammar of the language' places "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" on earth after Christ has fully descended from heaven - [and] after the shout, etc

 

[ewq1938]

Not buying it.

The 'grammar of the language' places "and the dead in Christ shall rise first" on earth after Christ has fully descended from heaven - [and] after the shout, etc

On Earth?? The resurrection and rapture are finished while Christ is still in the clouds of the Earth.

 

[GaryA]

On Earth?? The resurrection and rapture are finished while Christ is still in the clouds of the Earth.

Well, yes - I agree. Perhaps I could have worded it differently. The implication is that the dead in Christ are "on earth" since Christ is at the "bottom end" (earth) of His descending from heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, yes - I agree. Perhaps I could have worded it differently. The implication is that the dead in Christ are "on earth" since Christ is at the "bottom end" (earth) of His descending from heaven.

There are zero implications that any of the former dead are on the Earth with the living.


2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new "house" or body is not from the Earth, but is from Heaven!

One house/body is from the Earth and the other is from Heaven.