Calvinists are preaching a false message .

[NOV25]

Your testimony at the beginning shows how you didn't possibly understand the gospel, or believe the Gospel until much later . This is how repentence works. Changing our mind as stubborn and rigid it can be resisting until we finally do believe. The reasons are varied.

Do yourself a favor, spend about 100 hours studying repentance, it'll do you some good.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Regeneration Precedes Faith
by R. C. Sproul
One of the most dramatic moments in my life for the shaping of my theology took place in a seminary classroom. One of my professors went to the blackboard and wrote these words in bold letters: "Regeneration Precedes Faith."

These words were a shock to my system. I had entered seminary believing that the key work of man to effect rebirth was faith. I thought that we first had to believe in Christ in order to be born again. I use the words in order here for a reason. I was thinking in terms of steps that must be taken in a certain sequence. I had put faith at the beginning. The order looked something like this:

"Faith - rebirth -justification."

I hadn’t thought that matter through very carefully. Nor had I listened carefully to Jesus’ words to Nicodemus. I assumed that even though I was a sinner, a person born of the flesh and living in the flesh, I still had a little island of righteousness, a tiny deposit of spiritual power left within my soul to enable me to respond to the Gospel on my own. Perhaps I had been confused by the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Rome, and many other branches of Christendom, had taught that regeneration is gracious; it cannot happen apart from the help of God.

No man has the power to raise himself from spiritual death. Divine assistance is necessary. This grace, according to Rome, comes in the form of what is called prevenient grace. "Prevenient" means that which comes from something else. Rome adds to this prevenient grace the requirement that we must "cooperate with it and assent to it" before it can take hold in our hearts.

This concept of cooperation is at best a half-truth. Yes, the faith we exercise is our faith. God does not do the believing for us. When I respond to Christ, it is my response, my faith, my trust that is being exercised. The issue, however, goes deeper. The question still remains: "Do I cooperate with God's grace before I am born again, or does the cooperation occur after?" Another way of asking this question is to ask if regeneration is monergistic or synergistic. Is it operative or cooperative? Is it effectual or dependent? Some of these words are theological terms that require further explanation.

A monergistic work is a work produced singly, by one person. The prefix mono means one. The word erg refers to a unit of work. Words like energy are built upon this root. A synergistic work is one that involves cooperation between two or more persons or things. The prefix syn -

means "together with." I labor this distinction for a reason. The debate between Rome and Luther hung on this single point. At issue was this: Is regeneration a monergistic work of God or a synergistic work that requires cooperation between man and God? When my professor wrote "Regeneration precedes faith" on the blackboard, he was clearly siding with the monergistic answer. After a person is regenerated, that person cooperates by exercising faith and trust. But the first step is the work of God and of God alone.

The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead.

When I began to wrestle with the Professor's argument, I was surprised to learn that his strange-sounding teaching was not novel. Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield - even the great medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas taught this doctrine. Thomas Aquinas is the Doctor Angelicus of the Roman Catholic Church. For centuries his theological teaching was accepted as official dogma by most Catholics. So he was the last person I expected to hold such a view of regeneration. Yet Aquinas insisted that regenerating grace is operative grace, not cooperative grace. Aquinas spoke of prevenient grace, but he spoke of a grace that comes before faith, which is regeneration.

These giants of Christian history derived their view from Holy Scripture. The key phrase in Paul's Letter to the Ephesians is this: "...even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have you been saved)" (Eph. 2:5). Here Paul locates the time when regeneration occurs. It takes place 'when we were dead.' With one thunderbolt of apostolic revelation all attempts to give the initiative in regeneration to man are smashed. Again, dead men do not cooperate with grace. Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith.

This says nothing different from what Jesus said to Nicodemus. Unless a man is born again first, he cannot possibly see or enter the kingdom of God. If we believe that faith precedes regeneration, then we set our thinking and therefore ourselves in direct opposition not only to giants of Christian history but also to the teaching of Paul and of our Lord Himself.

He is still wrong.

 

[throughfaith]

Do yourself a favor, spend about 100 hours studying repentance, it'll do you some good.

Let's save all that time right now and see what Jesus says it means.
Matt 21
28¶But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented , AND went .
HE CHANGED HIS MIND ...AND !!! WENT
notice which part is ' changed his mind ' ? its ' repented ' .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What if it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance?

We are elect in Christ not elected into Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen

it is gods goodness that leads us to faith

not him regenerating us

regenration can not precede justification else we are made alive in sin

this to me is the straw that breaks that back in any attempt to help me believe in calvinism

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Isaiah 64:6

We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.


-----------

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—




That's the ''heart'' of the issue. Not that every man is as wicked as he could be, and can even do good works towards fellows human beings etc.

To put it another way.. Does the unsaved man do good deeds from a righteous heart or a self righteous heart.

I think the bible says the unsaved man's works are like filthy rags.

That is why we need the righteousness of Christ.. we don't have any of our own (Matt 5:48; Rom 3:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21, Titus 3:5).




Does the unsaved man do good from a right heart with God?

No

thats why he needs God help to come to repentance

thats what the Holy Spirit s for. To convict us of sin righteousness and judgment

this gives us the ability to say yes or no

 

[NOV25]

Let's save all that time right now and see what Jesus says it means.
Matt 21
28¶But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented , AND went .
HE CHANGED HIS MIND ...AND !!! WENT
notice which part is ' changed his mind ' ? its ' repented ' .

From a different thread, this will get you started.

Must we repent in order to be forgiven?

Yes. However, It is crucial for one to have a biblical understanding of repentance?

Repent/Metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider

Can a man change his own nature or is it the work of God?

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Sorrow given by God the Spirit causes you to think differently. Again, this is the new birth, quickening of the Spirit, the changing of nature and direction.

To repent is to turn from one way to another, the changing of mind, the way of thinking, it is a change of nature. It is NOT just a feeling of remorse. Though once the eyes are opened through the quickening of the spirit you are able to see the wide path you're on and true remorse will accompany you to the narrow path.

God grants repentance.

Acts 5:31
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

 

[throughfaith]

From a different thread, this will get you started.

Must we repent in order to be forgiven?

Yes. However, It is crucial for one to have a biblical understanding of repentance?

Repent/Metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider

Can a man change his own nature or is it the work of God?

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Sorrow given by God the Spirit causes you to think differently. Again, this is the new birth, quickening of the Spirit, the changing of nature and direction.

To repent is to turn from one way to another, the changing of mind, the way of thinking, it is a change of nature. It is NOT just a feeling of remorse. Though once the eyes are opened through the quickening of the spirit you are able to see the wide path you're on and true remorse will accompany you to the narrow path.

God grants repentance.

Acts 5:31
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

28¶But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29He answered and said, I will not: but afterward HE repented, and went.

I see your just adding 'but God caused him to change his mind '

 

[NOV25]

Glory belongs to the Lord. ALL of it. Your repentance, your faith, your justification, your sanctification and your glorification.

 

[throughfaith]

From a different thread, this will get you started.

Must we repent in order to be forgiven?

Yes. However, It is crucial for one to have a biblical understanding of repentance?

Repent/Metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider

Can a man change his own nature or is it the work of God?

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Sorrow given by God the Spirit causes you to think differently. Again, this is the new birth, quickening of the Spirit, the changing of nature and direction.

To repent is to turn from one way to another, the changing of mind, the way of thinking, it is a change of nature. It is NOT just a feeling of remorse. Though once the eyes are opened through the quickening of the spirit you are able to see the wide path you're on and true remorse will accompany you to the narrow path.

God grants repentance.

Acts 5:31
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

you said //Must we repent in order to be forgiven?//

From a different thread, this will get you started.

Must we repent in order to be forgiven?

Yes. However, It is crucial for one to have a biblical understanding of repentance?

Repent/Metanoeo: to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider

Can a man change his own nature or is it the work of God?

2 Corinthians 7:10
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Sorrow given by God the Spirit causes you to think differently. Again, this is the new birth, quickening of the Spirit, the changing of nature and direction.

To repent is to turn from one way to another, the changing of mind, the way of thinking, it is a change of nature. It is NOT just a feeling of remorse. Though once the eyes are opened through the quickening of the spirit you are able to see the wide path you're on and true remorse will accompany you to the narrow path.

God grants repentance.

Acts 5:31
He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

2 Timothy 2:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,

Romans 2:4
Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

This sounds strange///Can a man change his own nature or is it the work of God?/// What has this got to do with changing your mind ?

 

[throughfaith]

Glory belongs to the Lord. ALL of it. Your repentance, your faith, your justification, your sanctification and your glorification.

That's just wilful assertion about how you feel .

 

[throughfaith]

Glory belongs to the Lord. ALL of it. Your repentance, your faith, your justification, your sanctification and your glorification.

As 1 cor 1.21 says ,its his idea . He chose to save people the way he chose . Glory to God for his own choice..Who are we to say God cannot do this?

 

[NOV25]

If you believe you have been predestined to believe. Before the foundation of the earth the perfect Father promised you to the perfect Son and the Perfect Spirit opened your eyes to see the image of the perfect Son whom you will immediately love, honor, admire and strive to be like for eternity. It's not about you or your choices. You are a love gift from the Father to the Son prepared by the Spirit.

 

[Magenta]

regenration can not precede justification else we are made alive in sin

this to me is the straw that breaks that back in any attempt to help me believe in calvinism

Hello EG What of Ephesians 2?

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the
prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling
the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

 

[throughfaith]

If you believe you have been predestined to believe. Before the foundation of the earth the perfect Father promised you to the perfect Son and the Perfect Spirit opened your eyes to see the image of the perfect Son whom you will immediately love, honor, admire and strive to be like for eternity. It's not about you or your choices. You are a love gift from the Father to the Son prepared by the Spirit.

'predestined to believe 'is found no where in the bible. Its saved people predestinated to Glorification . And
I thought it was unconditional election ?

 

[Magenta]

If you believe you have been predestined to believe. Before the foundation of the earth the perfect Father promised you to the perfect Son and the Perfect Spirit opened your eyes to see the image of the perfect Son whom you will immediately love, honor, admire and strive to be like for eternity. It's not about you or your choices. You are a love gift from the Father to the Son prepared by the Spirit.

Strive to be like God? Gosh.

 

[throughfaith]

If you believe you have been predestined to believe. Before the foundation of the earth the perfect Father promised you to the perfect Son and the Perfect Spirit opened your eyes to see the image of the perfect Son whom you will immediately love, honor, admire and strive to be like for eternity. It's not about you or your choices. You are a love gift from the Father to the Son prepared by the Spirit.

A love gift ? Kinda creepy . " here's your gift, these were unconditionally chosen for you with no reguard for anything in them or about them. And many I could have given to you ,but I decided for my glory to prevent them from having a chance MWAA HAAA HAAA !! ,but these ones I decided not to cast into the lake of fire forever ,so enjoy the ones I spared MWAA HAAA HAAA !!

 

[throughfaith]

Strive to be like God? Gosh.

Lordship salvation.

 

[Magenta]

Lordship salvation.

À la Johnny Mac?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello EG What of Ephesians 2?

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the
prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling
the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

The answer is there

by grace ye are saved

how are we saved, by grace through faith,

salvation, hence regeneration occures the moment we are saved by grace through faith

you can’t remove faith from the equation

 

[Magenta]

The answer is there

by grace ye are saved

how are we saved, by grace through faith,

salvation, hence regeneration occures the moment we are saved by grace through faith

you can’t remove faith from the equation

I am not trying to remove grace from the equation, I bolded what I was asking about:

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,

We were quickened when we were dead in our sins...