Calvinists are preaching a false message .
- Thread starter throughfaith
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
I am not trying to remove faith from the equation.
I bolded what I was asking about: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
We were quickened while we were yet sinners.
You said that can't be so. That's what I am curious about.
I did not realize it posted the first time... I was having browser issues
I bolded what I was asking about: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
We were quickened while we were yet sinners.
You said that can't be so. That's what I am curious about.
I did not realize it posted the first time... I was having browser issues
The claims of Calvinism cannot be supported by Scripture or by a proper understanding of the Gospel. Therefore they have simply been manufactured out of thin air.
The strongest proof of this the the huge contrast between the actual commentaries of John Calvin (which could not twist the interpretation without branding Calvin as a false teacher) and his actual theology which CONTRADICTS his own words.
Every Christian should go to Bible Hub and take specific Gospel verses and check Calvin's commentary on those verses. A good place to start would be John 1:29. Then check TULIP.
The strongest proof of this the the huge contrast between the actual commentaries of John Calvin (which could not twist the interpretation without branding Calvin as a false teacher) and his actual theology which CONTRADICTS his own words.
Every Christian should go to Bible Hub and take specific Gospel verses and check Calvin's commentary on those verses. A good place to start would be John 1:29. Then check TULIP.
E
I am not trying to remove faith from the equation.
I bolded what I was asking about: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
We were quickened while we were yet sinners.
You said that can't be so. That's what I am curious about.
I did not realize it posted the first time... I was having browser issues
I bolded what I was asking about: 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,
We were quickened while we were yet sinners.
You said that can't be so. That's what I am curious about.
I did not realize it posted the first time... I was having browser issues
even that passage you shared said by grace we have been saved,
the moment we are quickened (made alive)is due to the fact our sins are forgiven, that is called justification
we are justified by faith
we are saved by grace through faith
ypu can not remove faith from the equation of any aspect of our salvation including that fact of being born again (quickened) based on the fact we have been given the righteosuness of Christ (justified)
justificarion must come first, otherwise we are made alive IN SIN
Here are some easy links for everyone John 1:29 bible hub Calvin commentary
Care to elaborate @Nehemiah6 ?
Care to elaborate @Nehemiah6 ?
E
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in Hiskindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
There were many verses given in that paragraph of verses, but only one I was asking you about, while you keep diverting to others and saying faith cannot be removed, which I have never tried to remove from the equation, so I don't know why you keep repeating that. The verse specifically says we were quickened while dead in our sins. Twice in the verses given, actually.
CALVINS'S COMMENTARY CONTRADICTS REFORMED THEOLOGY
"...Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God. There are other favors, indeed, which Christ bestows upon us, but this is the chief favor, and the rest depend on it; that, by appeasing the wrath of God, he makes us to be reckoned holy and righteous. For from this source flow all the streams of blessings, that, by not imputing our sins, he receives us into favor. Accordingly, John, in order to conduct us to Christ, commences with the gratuitous forgiveness of sins which we obtain through him.
By the word Lamb he alludes to the ancient sacrifices of the Law. He had to do with Jews who, having been accustomed to sacrifices, could not be instructed about atonement for sins in any other way than by holding out to them a sacrifice. As there were various kinds of them, he makes one, by a figure of speech, to stand for the whole; and it is probable that John alluded to the paschal lamb. It must be observed, in general, that John employed this mode of expression, which was better adapted to instruct the Jews, and possessed greater force; as in our own day, in consequence of baptism being generally practiced, we understand better what is meant by obtaining forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ, when we are told that we are washed and cleansed by it from our pollutions.
At the same time, as the Jews commonly held superstitious notions about sacrifices, he corrects this fault in passing, by reminding them of the object to which all the sacrifices were directed. It was a very wicked abuse of the institution of sacrifice, that they had their confidence fixed on the outward signs; and therefore John, holding out Christ, testifies that he is the Lamb of God; by which he means that all the sacrifices, which the Jews were accustomed to offer under the Law, had no power whatever to atone for sins, but that they were only figures, the truth of which was manifested in Christ himself.
Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him.
John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.
Besides, he lays down but one method of taking away sins We know that from the beginning of the world, when their own consciences held them convinced, men labored anxiously to procure forgiveness. Hence the vast number of propitiatory offerings, by which they falsely imagined that they appeased God. I own, indeed, that all the spurious rites of a propitiatory nature drew their existence from a holy origin, which was, that God had appointed the sacrifices which directed men to Christ; but yet every man contrived for himself his own method of appeasing God. But John leads us back to Christ alone, and informs us that there is no other way in which God is reconciled to us than through his agency, because he alone takes away sin. He therefore leaves no other refuge for sinners than to flee to Christ; by which he overturns all satisfactions, and purifications, and redemptions, that are invented by men; as, indeed, they are nothing else than base inventions framed by the subtlety of the devil...."
As we can see above (bolded in red), Calvin's commentary does not deviate from the truth that the Lamb of God -- Christ -- died for the sins of the whole world -- the human race. Indeed Calvin uses that term.
But Reformed Theology teaches Limited Atonement in contradiction to Calvin's commentary (and the generally held belief of non-Calvinists).
"...Behold the Lamb of God. The principal office of Christ is briefly but clearly stated; that he takes away the sins of the world by the sacrifice of his death, and reconciles men to God. There are other favors, indeed, which Christ bestows upon us, but this is the chief favor, and the rest depend on it; that, by appeasing the wrath of God, he makes us to be reckoned holy and righteous. For from this source flow all the streams of blessings, that, by not imputing our sins, he receives us into favor. Accordingly, John, in order to conduct us to Christ, commences with the gratuitous forgiveness of sins which we obtain through him.
By the word Lamb he alludes to the ancient sacrifices of the Law. He had to do with Jews who, having been accustomed to sacrifices, could not be instructed about atonement for sins in any other way than by holding out to them a sacrifice. As there were various kinds of them, he makes one, by a figure of speech, to stand for the whole; and it is probable that John alluded to the paschal lamb. It must be observed, in general, that John employed this mode of expression, which was better adapted to instruct the Jews, and possessed greater force; as in our own day, in consequence of baptism being generally practiced, we understand better what is meant by obtaining forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ, when we are told that we are washed and cleansed by it from our pollutions.
At the same time, as the Jews commonly held superstitious notions about sacrifices, he corrects this fault in passing, by reminding them of the object to which all the sacrifices were directed. It was a very wicked abuse of the institution of sacrifice, that they had their confidence fixed on the outward signs; and therefore John, holding out Christ, testifies that he is the Lamb of God; by which he means that all the sacrifices, which the Jews were accustomed to offer under the Law, had no power whatever to atone for sins, but that they were only figures, the truth of which was manifested in Christ himself.
Who taketh away the sin of the world. He uses the word sin in the singular number, for any kind of iniquity; as if he had said, that every kind of unrighteousness which alienates men from God is taken away by Christ. And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race; that the Jews might not think that he had been sent to them alone. But hence we infer that the whole world is involved in the same condemnation; and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God, they need to be reconciled to him.
John the Baptist, therefore, by speaking generally of the sin of the world, intended to impress upon us the conviction of our own misery, and to exhort us to seek the remedy. Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.
Besides, he lays down but one method of taking away sins We know that from the beginning of the world, when their own consciences held them convinced, men labored anxiously to procure forgiveness. Hence the vast number of propitiatory offerings, by which they falsely imagined that they appeased God. I own, indeed, that all the spurious rites of a propitiatory nature drew their existence from a holy origin, which was, that God had appointed the sacrifices which directed men to Christ; but yet every man contrived for himself his own method of appeasing God. But John leads us back to Christ alone, and informs us that there is no other way in which God is reconciled to us than through his agency, because he alone takes away sin. He therefore leaves no other refuge for sinners than to flee to Christ; by which he overturns all satisfactions, and purifications, and redemptions, that are invented by men; as, indeed, they are nothing else than base inventions framed by the subtlety of the devil...."
As we can see above (bolded in red), Calvin's commentary does not deviate from the truth that the Lamb of God -- Christ -- died for the sins of the whole world -- the human race. Indeed Calvin uses that term.
But Reformed Theology teaches Limited Atonement in contradiction to Calvin's commentary (and the generally held belief of non-Calvinists).
Once you have a new heart you won't want to say no? I know you don't believe one can lose their salvation.
It's only by having a new heart can you have faith/believe in Jesus. But Faith indeed you must have. Dead men don't have faith.
If you say that a man dead in sin can produce his own faith, even if with a nudge, then it is works righteousness which I know you don't believe either. It's sounds like to me that you are saying your faith was the grounds for your regeneration.
This is where I see a glaring contradiction in synergistic OSAS.
But I also know we can both say: the Bible teaches that we are not saved by works, but by God’s grace through His gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Faith itself self is given to us from God.. The dead man has no ability to have faith.
E
I do not get a new heart until I recieve it, but as many as recieved him TO THEM he gave the right to become children of God even to those who BELIEVE on his name
and yes once we recieve that knew heart via the new life and seal of the spirit, we are sealed forever
again, this is backwards
john did not say but as many as are born again have been given the right to become childre of God so they could believe in his name
paul did not say for it is by grace we have been saved so that we can have faith
Love ya brother, and I know you are my brother, but I can not see it your way
people who have dead faith have no work
the Tax collector had enough faith to fall on his knee and call out for Gods mercy, Jesus said he went home justified because of that small faith
it does not take great faith to be saved, God grows our faith as we walk, remember faith of a mustard seed moves mountains, as the man who witnessed Jesus healing power said, I believe help me with my unbelief..
even in his lack of faith Jesus answered his prayer
brother no one can produce their own faith, I have never said or insinuated this was even possible. Please do not put this thinking on me. it’s one of the things I have seen which cancan turn a nice peaceful conversation into an argument which can turn bitter, and I do not want that,
whoever told you we believe we produce faith apart from Christ has misled you plain and simple. I know of no one who believes this. So please, come up with something we actually think if you want to convince us we are wrong,
if the dead man has no ability then Gods work in all of our lives is meaningless. He has no power. We may as well eat drink and be merry bro, we are all lost
God worked on me for months, in the church, my parents and my Sunday school teachers, even at night while I could not sleep, and asked him to save me over and over,
it was not until I took the walk down to the pastor and he had a deacon take me to a back room and walked me through the gospel that i said yes lord, this time I prayed and unlike all the other times, after this prayer, I felt life come into me, I felt joy, I felt peace
i did not feel it before I had faith I felt it after, I was like the tax collector,who called out to God and asked for his mercy, because I acknowledged I was a sinner and hopeless. I become poor in spirit
and I did not produce my own faith, God did by all he did through those in my life, and in our evening talks, where I know God was talking to me,
he gave this dead man faith, and by the means of grace, I recieved him and through this was given powers to be Gods son, because of my faith
and yes once we recieve that knew heart via the new life and seal of the spirit, we are sealed forever
again, this is backwards
john did not say but as many as are born again have been given the right to become childre of God so they could believe in his name
paul did not say for it is by grace we have been saved so that we can have faith
Love ya brother, and I know you are my brother, but I can not see it your way
people who have dead faith have no work
the Tax collector had enough faith to fall on his knee and call out for Gods mercy, Jesus said he went home justified because of that small faith
it does not take great faith to be saved, God grows our faith as we walk, remember faith of a mustard seed moves mountains, as the man who witnessed Jesus healing power said, I believe help me with my unbelief..
even in his lack of faith Jesus answered his prayer
brother no one can produce their own faith, I have never said or insinuated this was even possible. Please do not put this thinking on me. it’s one of the things I have seen which cancan turn a nice peaceful conversation into an argument which can turn bitter, and I do not want that,
whoever told you we believe we produce faith apart from Christ has misled you plain and simple. I know of no one who believes this. So please, come up with something we actually think if you want to convince us we are wrong,
if the dead man has no ability then Gods work in all of our lives is meaningless. He has no power. We may as well eat drink and be merry bro, we are all lost
God worked on me for months, in the church, my parents and my Sunday school teachers, even at night while I could not sleep, and asked him to save me over and over,
it was not until I took the walk down to the pastor and he had a deacon take me to a back room and walked me through the gospel that i said yes lord, this time I prayed and unlike all the other times, after this prayer, I felt life come into me, I felt joy, I felt peace
i did not feel it before I had faith I felt it after, I was like the tax collector,who called out to God and asked for his mercy, because I acknowledged I was a sinner and hopeless. I become poor in spirit
and I did not produce my own faith, God did by all he did through those in my life, and in our evening talks, where I know God was talking to me,
he gave this dead man faith, and by the means of grace, I recieved him and through this was given powers to be Gods son, because of my faith
---I don't think you were thinking when you wrote the above.
----- I never said we produce faith apart from Christ!! Again, you must have written this reply in haste.
The above just re-enforces that God renews the dead mans heart, so that he can see and come to faith. You said it yourself... If it was not for the gospel call outwardly and inwardly (Holy Spirit changing that heart of stone), you would never have come to respond in faith as you did.. Amen for that (even if you don't agree...it's still an Amen).
----- I never said we produce faith apart from Christ!! Again, you must have written this reply in haste.
The above just re-enforces that God renews the dead mans heart, so that he can see and come to faith. You said it yourself... If it was not for the gospel call outwardly and inwardly (Holy Spirit changing that heart of stone), you would never have come to respond in faith as you did.. Amen for that (even if you don't agree...it's still an Amen
).
---I don't think you were thinking when you wrote the above.
----- I never said we produce faith apart from Christ!! Again, you must have written this reply in haste.
The above just re-enforces that God renews the dead mans heart, so that he can see and come to faith. You said it yourself... If it was not for the gospel call outwardly and inwardly (Holy Spirit changing that heart of stone), you would never have come to respond in faith as you did.. Amen for that (even if you don't agree...it's still an Amen).
----- I never said we produce faith apart from Christ!! Again, you must have written this reply in haste.
The above just re-enforces that God renews the dead mans heart, so that he can see and come to faith. You said it yourself... If it was not for the gospel call outwardly and inwardly (Holy Spirit changing that heart of stone), you would never have come to respond in faith as you did.. Amen for that (even if you don't agree...it's still an Amen
).
E
I meant every word I said. If a dead man can not come to faith he can not as John say receive him to be given the power to become gods son
if I have no ability to receive him I can not be saved
I just responded to what you wrote about producing faith brother. Whether it is to me or anyone else. No on thinks this. So it is one of those things where you have been misled about what other think.
Yes. But it was not regeneration. As I showed regeneration occurred after I called out. Not before. God was changing my Mind (renewing my heart) by what happened in the time up until I said yes[/quote][/quote]
if I have no ability to receive him I can not be saved
I just responded to what you wrote about producing faith brother. Whether it is to me or anyone else. No on thinks this. So it is one of those things where you have been misled about what other think.
The above just re-enforces that God renews the dead mans heart, so that he can see and come to faith. You said it yourself... If it was not for the gospel call outwardly and inwardly (Holy Spirit changing that heart of stone), you would never have come to respond in faith as you did.. Amen for that (even if you don't agree...it's still an Amen ).
).