Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Kolistus]

No, no u-turn.
Jesus returns and we are resurrected or transformed to join his procession on the clouds as he arrives.

The pre-trib scenario requires a u-turn.
Believers who have been dwelling in heaven return to the earth to receive their resurrected bodies.
Then do a u-turn all the way back to the throne room of heaven for a 7-year party. Then come back again.

When is John 14:1-3 fulfilled?

 

[Runningman]

Ok Thank you.

At least I can see what you have in mind. This is why we argue. You have very different ideas than I do.
I was wondering what you had in mind regarding the harvest vision because that was what you seem to want to focus on more than anything.

So you see the end time harvest as "Jews only". I don't. I can see where a pre-trib belief would force you into that though.

I must disagree that the depth of the end times is hidden. Hidden to the world at large, yes but not to believers.
The end times is well detailed in all the Prophets from Moses forward. It really isn't hidden to anyone familiar with the scriptures. Jesus & The Apostles referred us to it a lot. We don't have to insert a narrative that isn't there.

Pre-tribbers don't like talking about this verse:

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

All kindreds, tongues, and nations is definitely not only Jews. This is everyone, Christian's includes.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

When is John 14:1-3 fulfilled?

Isn't it fulfilled for every believer after we die?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Rev 3:10
“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

This verse does NOT support a pre-Trib rapture. What it does say, and clearly, is that the FAITHFUL believers will avoid God's wrath. It doesn't make this promise to all believers. Yet, all living believers will be changed when Jesus returns to earth the SECOND time.

And, this verse doesn't mean that faithful believers will not be persecuted by the evil unbelievers. That isn't God's wrath. And believers will be persecuted.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You little game playing juvenile squirrel.

Go play somewhere else.

My my, you're the touchy one. Can't answer simple questions, huh.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is your typical game playing nuisance baloney.

Still rather touchy, I see.

You could not stand toe to toe with a babe in Christ.

You have no idea what you are spouting.

You're a little game player.

Run along jr.

Pitiful.

Go play with your one dimensional buddies or something.

Touchy, touchy.

Those who have no answers to questions demonstrate their inability to answer by name calling of the questioners.

Just trying to shift the focus off their inability.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And Acts 3:21 contradicts the notion that Jesus leaves heaven, goes to earth, and then returns "before the restoration of all things".

Pre-trib does not teach Jesus comes to earth in the coming to gather the Church. He comes from the third heaven to the atmosphere, then resurrects the dead in Christ, proceded by the rapture of the living saints at the time.

Look, coming to the atmosphere is ESSENTIALLY "coming to earth", is it not? Why all the word games? The challenge remains; please provide any verse that says that Jesus comes in the clouds, gathers up "those who belong to Him" (1 Cor 15:23) and RETURNS to heaven.

Can you do that?

Thus fulfilling John 14:1-3 to take us back to God's house. In post-trib land this never happens and we do a U-turn and come right back to earth.

Sigh. Jesus was speaking to living believers, who WOULD die shortly. He wasn't speaking of some end time gathering and taking back to heaven. He was promising His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, since they would die and go to heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The "first" resurrection you say? There is a resurrection before that 'First resurrection' in the book of Revelation. What do you do with that? There is for example the rapture of the two witnesses.

Should be obvious that there CAN'T be a resurrection BEFORE the "first one". That's the point.

Read 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

What glares out at the reader is that Christ is the first to be resurrected (first fruits) and THEN, when He comes, EVERYONE who belongs to Him.

It's written as a single event, which is AFTER Christ's resurrection, obviously.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Kolistus said:
When is John 14:1-3 fulfilled?

Isn't it fulfilled for every believer after we die?

Bingo!

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Pre-tribbers don't like talking about this verse:

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

All kindreds, tongues, and nations is definitely not only Jews. This is everyone, Christian's includes.

Yes. We have this call to endurance for that time specifically. We can't ignore it & say "it's just for the Jews"
None of us believe we can endure it. Because in our flesh we cannot.
I'm the world's biggest coward but I know The Spirit he put in me can do all things.


Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labours, and their works follow them.”

The dead who die in the Lord are part of the church. The bride.

Daniel 7
25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

FreeGrace2 said:

coming to the atmosphere is ESSENTIALLY "coming to earth",

^ This!!

 

[Runningman]

Yes. We have this call to endurance for that time specifically. We can't ignore it & say "it's just for the Jews"
None of us believe we can endure it. Because in our flesh we cannot.
I'm the world's biggest coward but I know The Spirit he put in me can do all things.


Rev 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labours, and their works follow them.”

The dead who die in the Lord are part of the church. The bride.

Daniel 7
25 And he will speak against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be handed over to him for a time, times, and half a time.

Yes and notice that Revelation 13:7 says "and it was given into him to make war with the saints."

Several verses before this is what it says:

Revelation 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is about the dragon (Satan) giving power to the "beast of the sea" so that it can make war with those who keep God's commands and have the testimony of Jesus Christ - the saints.

There is also the beast of the Earth, Mark of the beast, and anti-Christ. All covered in chapter 12-14 of Revelation.

In pre-tribulation rapture theory this is all ignored or reframed entirely different.

The key take aways are that everyone (all saints, kindreds, tongues, and nations) are targets for persecution during the Great Tribulation.

What is key to surviving all of this even if martyred? It's "keeping the commandments of God and the faith/testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

[cv5]

do you think it has anything to do with them believing what Jesus taught them to believe in the everlasting gospel though ? What I’m saying is did they believe they were having to endure tribulation to enter into the kingdom because he taught them that ?

Do you think instead of us debating maybe they believes this ?

“For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:8-10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s interesting that Paul had just been stoned and left for dead , and the apostles had gathered around him and he got up just before they are encouraging the church about reminding them “ if you unsure hreatbtribulations in the world for the sake of believing the gospel , don’t lose heart or be surprised do not turn from God even facing death and your soul will be saved “

in those days tribulation was very physical thousands of Christians and Jews were slaughtered in the following years after christs ascension to the throne in heaven

While even today somewhere in the world Christians die for their faith in some third world country there are many forms of persecution that are more destructive because they are harder to understand and much more deceptive

there’s a reason so many of us Christians who believe in the lord with all our hearts are struggling with depression , disease , a reason why a person can be living a great godly life not perfect but walking in the lords word and doing. On harm and someone else can come by and shoot them for no reason and rob them

think about that brother we know God is the ultimate authority so how do believers still have sommuch suffering in this world why do they have terrible diseases , why do they get persecuted and excluded and insulted ? In this world surely that’s not Gods will for a person to suffer for their righteous faith in him ?

the thing is that Satan has authority in this world over everyone who does. It accept and believe the gospel , so the whole world outside the church not knowing it are being set up against Gods people because of his word .

He is warning us about things ahead of time telling us to hold on no matter what comes in the future to his promises of the kingdom because Satan is at wer with us the church and we need to take it seriously and gear up with the armor of God and strike down the enemy with the sword of the spirit were on a battle field

Had to put you on ignore sorry.....

 

[FreeGrace2]

Pre-trib does not teach Jesus comes to earth in the coming to gather the Church. He comes from the third heaven to the atmosphere, then resurrects the dead in Christ, proceded by the rapture of the living saints at the time. Thus fulfilling John 14:1-3 to take us back to God's house. In post-trib land this never happens and we do a U-turn and come right back to earth.

The fact that Jesus will come from the 3rd heaven to the earth's atmosphere is the SAME as saying that Jesus comes to earth. He certainly wasn't coming to the moon.

You're making a trivial point. The issue is the pre-Trib view that Jesus RETURNS to heaven with all "those who belong to Him".

He doesn't return to heaven. Acts 3:21 in the original makes that clear. He STAYS in heaven "until the time of restoration of all things".

 

[FreeGrace2]

The "first" resurrection you say? There is a resurrection before that 'First resurrection' in the book of Revelation. What do you do with that?

There isn't one.

There is for example the rapture of the two witnesses.

Is that called a resurrection? No.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes that is correct. Jesus does NOT set foot on the earth per se at the time of the Rapture. We are then either resurrected or transformed to meet him in the AIR. We are then taken to abide in the Fathers house, that which Christ has prepared for us per John 14.

Since John 14 doesn't mention anything about end times, or the rapture, or the resurrection, you're only presuming it does.

It is clearly about Jesus telling His disciples that there would be a place for them IN heaven when they die physically. That's all.

It is just pure speculation that Jesus returns to heaven after gathering those who belong to Him.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Had to put you on ignore sorry.....

don’t be brother , thanks for telling me , now I know not to reply or comment on your posts I appreciate that it saves me time God bless you

 

[TheWaytoGo]

Hello TheWaytoGo!

The verse does not support your claim of the verse referring to the unrighteous.

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed."

First of all, The seals, trumpets and bowl judgements, as well as the plagues of the two witnesses, is what makes up the tribulation/great tribulation period. The verse above is inserted by the Lord at the pouring out of the 6th bowl, which would take place before the 7th bowl is poured out and which completes God's wrath. So, I don't know why you would claim that it is written after God's wrath, when there is one bowl left to be poured out.

And second, in regards to your claim 'He's not talking to believers, but the unrighteous,' the verse says 'blessed is the one who [stays awake]' which would be a warning to those who are already awake and alert. For you can't stay awake if you were never awake in the first place, which would be the case with unbelievers. The warning for them to stay awake and remaining clothed, would be in reference to believers to continue in faith, being watchful and alert, while the unrighteous would not be in that state to begin with.

In addition, how could the verse be referring to the unrighteous (unbelievers), when they would not be reading the word of God in order to heed the warning? Only those who would be familiar with God's word would understand the warning. Therefore, the warning is to believers in Christ, specifically, the saints during the great tribulation.

You are telling me that God is pouring out His Wrath on His Children?

What I am saying, that I don't think you are seeing, is that verse is told to the wicked unbelievers on earth during His Wrath. His Children have already been Raptured and the First Resurrection has already taken place when that verse you quote is spoken. Obviously, it is not spoken to the church because they aren't appointed to His Wrath and are not on earth when your verse is spoken to the people left AFTER the Rapure.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are telling me that God is pouring out His Wrath on His Children?

The only believers that are promised to be "kept from the hour of trial" (Rev 3:10) are faithful believers. There are unfaithful believers, and they will not be spared God's wrath (anger). However, we know that all believers will be saved.

What I am saying, that I don't think you are seeing, is that verse is told to the wicked unbelievers on earth during His Wrath. His Children have already been Raptured and the First Resurrection has already taken place when that verse you quote is spoken.

Not possible. The "first resurrection" is described in Rev 20:5 which is AFTER the Tribulation. There are no two "first resurrections".

In fact, 1 Cor 15:23 indicates that "those who belong to Him" are resurrected/raptured at the same time/event.

Obviously, it is not spoken to the church because they aren't appointed to His Wrath and are not on earth when your verse is spoken to the people left AFTER the Rapure.

The verse in 1 Thess about believers not appointed to His wrath is contrasted with salvation. So it's not talking about what occurs on earth, but what occurs at the final judgment, the GWT judgment. And no believer will be appointed to the lake of fire.

 

[TheWaytoGo]

My friend I have more understanding of the Rapture in my little finger than you do in your entire body. I have seen absolutely nothing whatsoever in the Scripture to convince me otherwise.

The Rapture is one of the imperturbable invincible Biblical doctrines. Trust me when I tell you it is my blessed hope. I have unshakable confidence that Christ will remove me BEFORE the time of Gods Wrath. At my age I may not be in the body at the time of the Rapture....but as I am heeding the command of my Lord Jesus to WATCH, it is VERY apparent to me that the end times are truly upon us. At the very door. I may very well be alive at that time. The Rapture is the end of the Day of Jesus Christ.....perhaps you fail to understand this as well.

A failure to understand and a failure to watch is going to leave many so-called Christians abandoned to the horrors of the Tribulation.

I thank my God my Father for His mercy on my behalf in that He will send the Son of Man to retrieve us His Bride before that time comes. Believe me I don't deserve it but I receive it eagerly. And proclaim it to others as often as I can.

The blessed hope is not the Rapture, it's salvation through Christ which is demonstrated in those who have been sanctified and walk in the Spirit displaying its fruits:

Tit 2:13 looking for the blessed hope AND the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,​

​

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,​

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Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.​

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Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.​

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Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.​

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Gal 5:26 Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.​