Calvinists are preaching a false message .
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E
Hi EG,
I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, Amen.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Have a blessed evening brother
I agree wholeheartedly with that statement, Amen.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Have a blessed evening brother
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Rom 11 ( And if you read Romans 9 with 11 ,you will understand romans 9 )
26And so all Israel SHALL BE saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant UNTO THEM , when I shall take away their sins.
28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the ELECTION they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
26And so all Israel SHALL BE saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant UNTO THEM , when I shall take away their sins.
28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the ELECTION they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
So what do you think Ezekial was saying
And when did that happen?[/QUOTE]
Here is referring to when it will happen in the future .
Rom 11 .
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Anyhow throughfaith,
I think we should just leave it there brother. And just agree that we disagree
Have a blessed evening throughfaith
I think we should just leave it there brother. And just agree that we disagree
Have a blessed evening throughfaith
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Ok. I will admit that, because God dwells above and outside of time, and because He has omniscience and foreknowledge, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the election and predestination stuff. I still believe that Jesus loves everyone and shed his blood for all who would accept it as full payment on their behalf. If we can agree on that much, then I am happy.
Matthew
9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew
9:12 But when Jesus heard [that], he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
9:13 But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
To add .
Calvinistic presuppositions have permeated the entire church. Most denominations and traditions have been influenced by it . Most non calvinists will call them selves a four point / three point / some pointer ect . Most Arminians will come to the defence of Calvinism because they themselves are already in the calvinistic paradigm with the teachings of Arminianism . This is mainly in the area of ' predestination, election and as a consequence ' Lordship salvation ' Most haven't read Augustine , Calvin , Arminius, Wesley ect . But none the less are influenced by the system because of the church they attend and the teachers they listen to .
Calvinistic presuppositions have permeated the entire church. Most denominations and traditions have been influenced by it . Most non calvinists will call them selves a four point / three point / some pointer ect . Most Arminians will come to the defence of Calvinism because they themselves are already in the calvinistic paradigm with the teachings of Arminianism . This is mainly in the area of ' predestination, election and as a consequence ' Lordship salvation ' Most haven't read Augustine , Calvin , Arminius, Wesley ect . But none the less are influenced by the system because of the church they attend and the teachers they listen to .
Good day, Oyster67!
In regards to this issue, what do you conclude from the following?
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. John 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father's hand."
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
===========================================================================================
"Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and,
“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."
For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“ ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
===========================================================================================
"And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
=========================================================================================
"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
===========================================================================================
These are just some of the scriptures that demonstrate to me, that it is by God's Sovereign choice in election for those whom He foreknew and predestined and who wrote our names in His book before the world began.
The two in Rev.13:8 and 17:18, tell me that, there were names that were not written in the book of life. And that there were names that were written in the book of life and that it took place from before the world began and this was not based on man's own desire's or efforts, but were predestined according to His purpose.
The fact that everyone is guilty of sin and worthy of death, including believers, tells me that God was not being unfair when He chose to save some.
In regards to this issue, what do you conclude from the following?
"Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. John 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father's hand."
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
"And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the Book of Life belonging to the Lamb who was slain."
"And those who dwell on the earth whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world will marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet will be."
===========================================================================================
"Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,
“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”
and,
“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for."
For this is what the Lord has commanded us:
“ ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
===========================================================================================
"And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified."
=========================================================================================
"Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
"What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses:
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.
===========================================================================================
These are just some of the scriptures that demonstrate to me, that it is by God's Sovereign choice in election for those whom He foreknew and predestined and who wrote our names in His book before the world began.
The two in Rev.13:8 and 17:18, tell me that, there were names that were not written in the book of life. And that there were names that were written in the book of life and that it took place from before the world began and this was not based on man's own desire's or efforts, but were predestined according to His purpose.
The fact that everyone is guilty of sin and worthy of death, including believers, tells me that God was not being unfair when He chose to save some.
Everyone is Guilty of sin. Jesus pays for all that sin . That is what Jesus, s Blood was able to do . But this does not save anyone alone . They need to be glorified. A person can have their sins paid for but yet not be glorified. How's this Possible i hear you ask ? They don't believe the truth so as to be saved . People don't go to hell to pay for sins . Jesus already paid for them . 2 cor 5.19 .No ,its because they reject the one who died for them . Calvinism turns this upside down and inside out .
We both hold God's Word to be true, but we look at it from different perspectives perhaps?
Those who will come to Jesus are the ones that the Father foresaw would do so.
It is not in the nature of Jesus to drive away(or cast out, or forsake) anybody.
God is not willing that ANY should perish. This certainly includes those who the Father gave to the Son.
No one can "snatch" anything from God, but when a person walks away, he is not being "snatched".
...and there will come a time when God's Spirit ceases to draw a man.
God's books are written according to foreknowledge. Those within are referred to as the 'elect'.
Those who, according to foreknowledge, did not come to repentance. The horses who were led to water but would not drink.
God's mercy is the Blood of Jesus, not some notion of election. If God's mercy were just the mere notion of election, then the Blood of Jesus would have been of much less value. In this way, Calvinism cheapens the value and lessens the need of the Jesus' blood (that would have otherwise been shed for all.)
btw, what translation/version have you been quoting from?
Those who will come to Jesus are the ones that the Father foresaw would do so.
It is not in the nature of Jesus to drive away(or cast out, or forsake) anybody.
God is not willing that ANY should perish. This certainly includes those who the Father gave to the Son.
No one can "snatch" anything from God, but when a person walks away, he is not being "snatched".
...and there will come a time when God's Spirit ceases to draw a man.
God's books are written according to foreknowledge. Those within are referred to as the 'elect'.
Those who, according to foreknowledge, did not come to repentance. The horses who were led to water but would not drink.
God's mercy is the Blood of Jesus, not some notion of election. If God's mercy were just the mere notion of election, then the Blood of Jesus would have been of much less value. In this way, Calvinism cheapens the value and lessens the need of the Jesus' blood (that would have otherwise been shed for all.)
btw, what translation/version have you been quoting from?
First of all, I'm not a Calvinist. I'm only concerned about the truth. You are correct in that everyone is guilty of sin, however, salvation is only obtained by those who have faith in Christ. Everyone who does not believe remains condemned.
The above is not a true statement and makes no sense. When we believed in Christ we were credited with His righteousness and were reconciled to God, if we continue in faith from beginning to end. The scripture states that:
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Glorification then, is apart of salvation. You can't be saved if you don't believe. Those who do not believe are not predestined, called, justified or glorified. Simply put, faith is required to obtain any of the above. For example, if one is a believer in say, Islam, that person is not saved because they do not have faith in Christ. And so that person is neither called, nor jus4tified or glorified. It is faith in Christ that activates those things.
This is also a false statement! People are indeed separated from God because of sin with the lake of fire being their ultimate punishment. This is not a blanket salvation where everyone's sins are paid for. Jesus paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified. This was my point of the post, in that it is by God's Sovereign choice that people are saved which was predetermined before the world began and by man's efforts or desires.
The above is not a true statement and makes no sense. When we believed in Christ we were credited with His righteousness and were reconciled to God, if we continue in faith from beginning to end. The scripture states that:
"For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Glorification then, is apart of salvation. You can't be saved if you don't believe. Those who do not believe are not predestined, called, justified or glorified. Simply put, faith is required to obtain any of the above. For example, if one is a believer in say, Islam, that person is not saved because they do not have faith in Christ. And so that person is neither called, nor jus4tified or glorified. It is faith in Christ that activates those things.
This is also a false statement! People are indeed separated from God because of sin with the lake of fire being their ultimate punishment. This is not a blanket salvation where everyone's sins are paid for. Jesus paid the penalty for those whom God foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified. This was my point of the post, in that it is by God's Sovereign choice that people are saved which was predetermined before the world began and by man's efforts or desires.
My point was that sins were paid for 2000 years ago . Having sins paid for before people believed . Then 2000 years later if they don't recieve Jesus then they won't be glorified . Even though 2000 years ago thier sins were paid for . The whole world according to 2cor 5 .19 HAS been reconciled having their sins paid for. Some believe that having sins paid for means they WILL come to believe. No . unless they recieve Jesus through faith , even though 2000 years ago he paid for their sins , they will be lost . But once a person receives Jesus through faith . He cannot be lost .
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You say ///This is not a blanket salvation where everyone's sins are paid for/// Heres where you make the error . Having sins paid for 2000 years ago is not ' salvation ' . Salvation today is a person receiving Jesus and being sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. Where did you get the idea that 2 cor 5 .19 means that only a few were reconciled ? it says ' the WORLD ' ? Where did you get the idea that the death of Christ saves ? The bible says, the RESURRECTION is what saves . I've spoke to you before and you use John 6 as if this is salvation for today ? Why ,its before the death, burial and resurrection? Why do you use all calvinist ' proof texts ' , like literally everyone, in order ? Sins being paid ,does not glorify anyone . Only those who recieve ( John 1.12 ) will be glorified. Those that are predestined to glorification AFTER they believed. Not before they existed. Election to salvation messes with peoples minds and the way they read the bible.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
when we are glorified then we WILL BE conformed . Its not conversion , its not sanctification, its not instalments, its not ' already not yet ' post hoc rationalization. Its at the end . So this places ' Predestined ' being AFTER conversion and not something that took place in Gods mind ,like some weird novel.
when we are glorified then we WILL BE conformed . Its not conversion , its not sanctification, its not instalments, its not ' already not yet ' post hoc rationalization. Its at the end . So this places ' Predestined ' being AFTER conversion and not something that took place in Gods mind ,like some weird novel.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
when we are glorified then we WILL BE conformed . Its not conversion , its not sanctification, its not instalments, its not ' already not yet ' post hoc rationalization. Its at the end . So this places ' Predestined ' being AFTER conversion and not something that took place in Gods mind ,like some weird novel. No non existent person , certainly no sinner born is predestined to anything, He's not blessed with anything, He's not due anything. However a person who receives Jesus, now they are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. Eph 1.3 . Now they have what was chosen before the foundation. That they be holy and blameless. God chose what believers would get . Eph 1.4 ' IN HIM . Then they are predestined. Why ? Because NOW they have the sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption/ Adoption . Rom 8.23 . No non existing being has anything. No sinner has anything UNTIL they believe. God only KNOWS people AS A SON those in Christ .
when we are glorified then we WILL BE conformed . Its not conversion , its not sanctification, its not instalments, its not ' already not yet ' post hoc rationalization. Its at the end . So this places ' Predestined ' being AFTER conversion and not something that took place in Gods mind ,like some weird novel. No non existent person , certainly no sinner born is predestined to anything, He's not blessed with anything, He's not due anything. However a person who receives Jesus, now they are blessed with all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus. Eph 1.3 . Now they have what was chosen before the foundation. That they be holy and blameless. God chose what believers would get . Eph 1.4 ' IN HIM . Then they are predestined. Why ? Because NOW they have the sealing of the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption/ Adoption . Rom 8.23 . No non existing being has anything. No sinner has anything UNTIL they believe. God only KNOWS people AS A SON those in Christ .