CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#1
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5 is an awesome chapter on which clarifies the order of salvation and the components of salvation .
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.
Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .
My contention from these verses is this .
1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

3) Justification is by Faith . Faith is the prerequisite to the grace .

4) Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .


5) Yes this chapter, amoung many is anti Calvinistic . But it also proves false many other denominational teaching on Lordship salvation/ conditional salvation . Romans 5 is contorted to fit systematic theology ,but if we let the verses stand as they are we would understand what they actually SAY and not what we are told they TEACH .



Let's discuss
What say you on Romans 5 ?
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#2
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5 is an awesome chapter on which clarifies the order of salvation and the components of salvation .
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.
Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .
My contention from these verses is this .
1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

3) Justification is by Faith . Faith is the prerequisite to the grace .

4) Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .


5) Yes this chapter, amoung many is anti Calvinistic . But it also proves false many other denominational teaching on Lordship salvation/ conditional salvation . Romans 5 is contorted to fit systematic theology ,but if we let the verses stand as they are we would understand what they actually SAY and not what we are told they TEACH .



Let's discuss
What say you on Romans 5 ?
I would like to add that the pool of available people God has had at His disposal to work with have almost exclusively been sinners.

Adam and Eve were sinless at first and therefore blameless and objectively good; shortly afterwards they became sinners just like the rest of the major and minor prophets, priests, etc.

Jesus Christ, God incarnated, is the only one capable of reconciling us to Himself:

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Of course, as Romans 5 and Hebrews 11 confirm, we are justified by faith. Access to the grace of God is obtained through faith.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,704
6,892
113
#3
I would like to add that the pool of available people God has had at His disposal to work with have almost exclusively been sinners.
Not surprising since ALL MEN have been/are sinners.......since Adams fall from Grace.....

With the exception of John the Baptist (who was born full of the Holy Spirit) all men were born into and lived as sinners until their salvation. So, yeah, God uses human beings to do His Will here on earth a lot of the time. However, the VAST MAJORITY of those humans were used by Him AFTER their salvation (Apostle Paul for example) which means He was using His children to do His will which fulfills the Truth of the 10th verse of Ephesians, Chapter 2.

8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,704
6,892
113
#4
BTW: I am not an "old sinner saved by Grace" I am a blood bought, born again child of the Living God and an heir to the Promise. Washed clean by the precious blood of Jesus the Christ and infilled with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who believes they are just an old sinner saved by Grace (IMO) is not yet Sanctified, and confused about what salvation really means and does.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
42,598
17,062
113
69
Tennessee
#5
I would like to add that the pool of available people God has had at His disposal to work with have almost exclusively been sinners.
It is best to have a sinner do the Lord's work than someone who is lukewarm and insensitive to helping the least of their brothers and sisters.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
#6
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.


--- Weren't the elect once ungodly.



Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .

My contention from these verses is this .

1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?


Justification is by Faith


Agreed..Sola fide


Reconciliation is not ' salvation

Paul disagrees about what you THINK he wrote:

For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence (Col 1:19ff)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#7
BTW: I am not an "old sinner saved by Grace" I am a blood bought, born again child of the Living God and an heir to the Promise. Washed clean by the precious blood of Jesus the Christ and infilled with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who believes they are just an old sinner saved by Grace (IMO) is not yet Sanctified, and confused about what salvation really means and does.
Scripture reminds us to remember from where we are fallen.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#8
BTW: I am not an "old sinner saved by Grace" I am a blood bought, born again child of the Living God and an heir to the Promise. Washed clean by the precious blood of Jesus the Christ and infilled with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who believes they are just an old sinner saved by Grace (IMO) is not yet Sanctified, and confused about what salvation really means and does.
Amen!:)

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#9
What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?
The one who fails is the rebel who refuses to come under the saving Blood of the Lamb of God.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#10
Paul disagrees about what you THINK he wrote:

For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence (Col 1:19ff)
No matter which way we split the hair, we must come to Jesus and be Born Again in order to inherit eternal life with Him.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
2,107
763
113
#11
1¶Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6¶For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

(Gen. 3:1–19 )
12¶Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20¶Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 5 is an awesome chapter on which clarifies the order of salvation and the components of salvation .
Notice its the UNGODLY that Jesus died for ? It doesn't say ' the elect '.
Romans 5 also makes clear that Christs death alone is not what saves .
My contention from these verses is this .
1 )Christ died for all without exception . In context we see that Jesus really did die for ALL and ALL are the ungodly .

2) Christ's' death' did not secure anyones salvation. We need the resurrection. We are saved by his life.

3) Justification is by Faith . Faith is the prerequisite to the grace .

4) Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .

5) Yes this chapter, amoung many is anti Calvinistic . But it also proves false many other denominational teaching on Lordship salvation/ conditional salvation . Romans 5 is contorted to fit systematic theology ,but if we let the verses stand as they are we would understand what they actually SAY and not what we are told they TEACH .

Let's discuss
What say you on Romans 5 ?
Yes throughfaith, Christ died for all the ungoidly, but Paul does not mean in place of the ungodly. He means for the welfare of the ungodly.

ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings 1Pet.4:13

There would be no way for a Christian to be a partaker of the wrath of God.

Rom.5:3 says we glory in tribulations. Jesus died for sinners this way. Jesus loved people, despite the abuse they heaped on him in return,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; Phil.3:10

There would be no way for a Christian to have fellowship with suffering the wrath of God, or be made like Jesus in his death, if Jesus was taking the place of every sinner and being punished for that reason. Rom.5 is teaching that Jesus suffered injustice so that sinners would see the injustice done to him and repent,

the sufferings of Christ abound in us 2Cor.1:5

Why? Because Jesus is exactly like his Father, who suffers sinners every day,

to be conformed to the image of his Son Rom.8:29
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#12
--- Weren't the elect once ungodly.






What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?






Agreed..Sola fide





Paul disagrees about what you THINK he wrote:

For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence (Col 1:19ff)
Were in Romans 5 ?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#14
--- Weren't the elect once ungodly.






What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?






Agreed..Sola fide





Paul disagrees about what you THINK he wrote:

For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence (Col 1:19ff)
//// What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?/////
Which verses are you referring to here ? Which verse says Jesus ' secured salvation '
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#15
--- Weren't the elect once ungodly.






What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?






Agreed..Sola fide





Paul disagrees about what you THINK he wrote:

For God was pleased to have all His fullness dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross. Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence (Col 1:19ff)
Did you mean col 1.19 ?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
#18
//// What exactly are you saying here? Surely if he did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed?/////
Which verses are you referring to here ? Which verse says Jesus ' secured salvation '

Hi through faith,


It was you who said that Jesus did not secure salvation. So I asked the question surely if Jesus did not secure salvation according to God's plan he failed? (notice the question mark)

Yet Jesus tells us himself he secured our salvation:

“And I give to them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father…is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.”—John 10:28-29
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
#19

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
8,345
2,157
113
#20
Reconciliation is not ' salvation ' when Jesus ' reconciled ' the world ,think of a bridge in which Christ has now laid so that all may cross . This is what Jesus did on the cross. This does not regenerate .This does not produce faith or give faith . This does not glorify anyone . God has made ' faith ' the access to the grace . To get on the bridge , so to speak .

No matter which way we split the hair, we must come to Jesus and be Born Again in order to inherit eternal life with Him.



17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s trespasses against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.…