Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Jude 1:14
Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
https://biblehub.com/greek/agio_n_40.htm
“to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Rev 19:14
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(See Rev 3:4-5, 18, Rev 4:4)

Is there no one in heaven NOW?

The Lord could return in blazing glory with ten thousands of his holy ones tonight if he wanted to.
Nothing in the text requires us to insert a 7-year sojurn in heaven between gatherings & returns.

BTW Jude 1:4 & The Book of Enoch are both referring back the original prophecy made by Moses and built on by the later prophets.

 

[Absolutely]

You've consistently failed to prove anything on a scriptural basis.
All you have done is keep insisting that an extra-biblical doctrine must be believed.
This isn't bible study or exploration of prophetic themes.

You are relying on speculative dogmatism.

You've consistently failed to prove anything on a scriptural basis.
All you have done is keep insisting that an extra-biblical doctrine must be believed.
This isn't bible study or exploration of prophetic themes.

You are relying on speculative dogmatism.

I have shown many points.
What specifically?

Show me specifically....if you can.
Take one point

Anybody can jump up and cry foul with no basis.

 

[Absolutely]

The Gathering.
concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

Exactly.
His coming and our gathering.
We are gathered at his second coming. Just like it says.
Absolutely disqualifies pretrib theory.

That's like saying " concerning our coming to New Zealand and our gathering onto the cruise ship."

Then saying " see we get on the ship when we come to New Zealand"

Uh, no, we got on the ship 3 weeks prior.

 

[Absolutely]

Double post

 

[Absolutely]

Is there no one in heaven NOW?

The Lord could return in blazing glory with ten thousands of his holy ones tonight if he wanted to.
Nothing in the text requires us to insert a 7-year sojurn in heaven between gatherings & returns.

BTW Jude 1:4 & The Book of Enoch are both referring back the original prophecy made by Moses and built on by the later prophets.

Too hodge podge.

Factor in rev 14
Factor in the bride/groom.

Factor in the AC killing all refusing the mark
Factor in the before the flood dynamic.
Factor in lot
Factor in the horses of rev 20.

 

[saintrose]

... we get our English word "RAPTURE" from the Latin Vulgate translation of this SAME WORD which is translated from the same Greek "harpazo [G726]" word (used in 1Th4:17 - harpagēsometha [G726]).


The SAME 14 occurrences of the Latin word "rapio [and variants]" (i.e. our English word 'rapture') as its exact Greek word "harpazo / harpagēsometha" (G726), shown in the Latin Vulgate (approx. 400ad), below:


1) Matthew 11:12 - "A diebus autem Joannis Baptistæ usque nunc, regnum cælorum vim patitur, et violenti rapiunt [G726] illud."

- https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/latin_vulgate_textus_receptus_king_james/matthew/mat11.htm


2) Matthew 12:29 ['STEAL [/snatch/take-by-force] his goods'] - "Aut quomodo potest quisquam intrare in domum fortis, et vasa ejus diripere [G726], nisi prius alligaverit fortem? et tunc domum illius diripiet [<--made up of G1223 dia and G726 harpazo]."

- https://www.logosapostolic.org/bibles/latin_vulgate_textus_receptus_king_james/matthew/mat12.htm


____________


Aside from that, Paul speaks of this more than in merely the ONE verse (meaning, in 1Th4:17; though that particular Grk word is only found here in his two Thessalonian epistles); rather, he refers to this item we commonly call "Rapture" using other terms and phrases something like 8-10 times in these two epistles.

Thank you. This is something that I have to delve into more. It seems the translations may be the key. I've been studying Revelations and there are so many doctrinal differences that it's hard to find pure teaching.

 

[Absolutely]

I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.

Which rapture verse bothers you?

Pick one and disqualify it.

 

[cv5]

We all have the same scriptures.
There is no verse that states he returns to gather- then he returns with a bride at another time.
If there was one you could show it.

You say we have no case because you are holding up Pre-trib doctrine as fact, then measuring everything according to that.
If we study the word without the lens of doctrine it speaks for itself.

Hebrews 9:28

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I know you like KJV so here it is

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The holistic concept of the Bride, the Church escapes you.
We are betrothed. We have been indwelt by the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the "arrabon".
We have been given a pledge. We, the Bride, will be taken, snatched up per John 14, at a time we do not know. We will be removed TO the Fathers house FROM the time and place of wrath.
No one, other than the Church, is waiting for the Son from heaven, and thereby be delivered FROM wrath.

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=wrath&t=NKJV#s=s_primary_66_1

Absolutely NONE of these phenomena pertain to the Tribulation Saints. Or the 144,000.
Tribulation Saints are certainly NOT waiting for the Son, nor are they delivered from wrath. They are waiting to be EXECUTED.
The Church is unique. And it definitely in NOWHERE to be found during the 70th week of Daniel.

 

[Absolutely]

Thank you. This is something that I have to delve into more. It seems the translations may be the key. I've been studying Revelations and there are so many doctrinal differences that it's hard to find pure teaching.

Every doctrine has alongside it error, or a distortion with men stalking and subverting truth.

The thing is ,error carries alongside it ," an impossibility"

Postrib rapture carries several "impossibilities"
Pretrib rapture is so easy to defend.
A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily show those impossibilities that riddle the postrib rapture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

saintrose said:
I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.

Which rapture verse bothers you?

Uh, the better question is: which verse says that Jesus resurrects/raptures His saints and then takes them back to heaven?

Pick one and disqualify it.

OK, which verse says Jesus returns to heaven after the resurrection/rapture?

You still haven't provided anything to support your claims.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Gathering by gradual waves of beheadings? Spaced out over 7 years of Gods wrath? Absolutely not.
We (the Church) are gathered INSTANTANEOUSLY, VIOLENTLY by a snatching, and all at once.
Furthermore, we are not appointed to wrath. The Tribulation is the time of Gods prophesied wrath.
We are undoubtedly the 24 Elders of Rev 4 & 5. The Bride has been SNATCHED AWAY by the Son to abide and be hidden from the time of wrath.

Isa 26:20
Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.

Enter your chambers.
Until his wrath has passed by. (as in Egypt)
How can his wrath pass by his people if they are partying in heaven for 7 years?

Exodus 12
26 And when your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ 27 then tell them, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’” Then the people bowed down and worshiped.

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.


Revelation 12
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Jesus is the Passover lamb. You know that.
His blood saves us from the damning orge wrath.
The whole Passover/Exodus story is full of end-time prophecy. The reason why Jesus & John referred us back to it.

Exodus 19
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself

1 Cor 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed—
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This trumpet is the trumpet of assembly. (see 2 Thess 2)
Not the trumpet of alarm, not the trumpet of battle, not the trumpet of judgment.

Of course, it's the announcement of the presence of God. The second coming. The last trumpet. The 7th Trumpet of Rev is just that.
Rev 11:15 Mathew 24:31 Exodus 19:19

Rev 11:15
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


Scripture flows together and tells the same story throughout.
We don't have to smash it up and paste it back together to accommodate an external theory.

 

[cv5]

I'm puzzled as to why so many have followed "Rapture" teaching when there is nothing in the Bible about the Rapture.

My dear friend, one must grasp and understand the Hebrew mindset before one can rightly divide the Truth. There are PATTERNS in the Bible as well as mere terms and words. Codes, types, patterns. And they are EXTREMELY relevant. The Jews oftentimes express themselves in term of patterns and metaphors etc.

 

[Absolutely]

""But there isn't any solid scripture that says the rapture happens pre-tribulation.""

You omit.
Your stand is a stand ON OMISSION.

Once the REST OF THE VERSES (the ones you leave out) are on the table.
Postrib rapture is destroyed.

It is that simple.

Omission.
Your deal is omission.

""This wouldn't even be a debate if there was a clear verse saying the rapture is an event entirely separate from the return of Christ""

Huh???

Oh yeah. That in fact also destroys postrib rapture.
Rev 14 should do it (if we do not tamper with the scripture)
But mat 25,plus acts 1 should be enough.

Still not convinced?
The dialogue at the last supper plus rev 19 should do it.

Still not convinced???
Jesus used lot and Noah as examples of his return.
And he framed both as PREJUDGEMENT...uh,that equals pretrib rapture.
100% pretrib rapture. The verses you requested.

But no...you will ignore all of that. You will not go there.


What about the AC?
Is that also omitted????

Psssst...he KILLS ALL REFUSING THE MARK.
ALL DIE OR TAKE THE MARK.
Yet another roadblock for a postrib rapture.
Yes. He kills all christians.

You have no case at all

Any postrib rapturists want to try and respond?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Every doctrine has alongside it error

There is biblical doctrine (what the Bible means by what it says) and there is man made doctrines (what men think the Bible says).

Postrib rapture carries several "impossibilities"
Pretrib rapture is so easy to defend.

The exact opposite is true.

You haven't yet proved that Jesus returns to heaven after resurrecting and rapturing those who are His.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Any postrib rapturists want to try and respond?

I already did, probably now several pages ago.

 

[cv5]

Every doctrine has alongside it error, or a distortion with men stalking and subverting truth.

The thing is ,error carries alongside it ," an impossibility"

Postrib rapture carries several "impossibilities"
Pretrib rapture is so easy to defend.
A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily show those impossibilities that riddle the postrib rapture.

Agree. Post-trib does not concatenate with the pattern and themes the Bible clearly sets forth.
Greek linear thinking is to blame.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I have shown many points.
What specifically?

Show me specifically....if you can.
Take one point

Anybody can jump up and cry foul with no basis.

Anybody can jump up and cry foul with no basis.
Then stop it.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That's like saying " concerning our coming to New Zealand and our gathering onto the cruise ship."

Then saying " see we get on the ship when we come to New Zealand"

Uh, no, we got on the ship 3 weeks prior.

You must assume the 3 weeks unless it is specified.

 

[Absolutely]

Agree. Post-trib does not concatenate with the pattern and themes the Bible clearly sets forth.
Greek linear thinking is to blame.

Yes
That, plus the huge investment they have in a poorly thought out postrib rapture model.

That investment is a shame. It hurts them in that it effects their view in this world and in the things of God.

But to ignore verses tells me everything.

They still ignore our verses.

 

[cv5]

Enter your chambers.
Until his wrath has passed by. (as in Egypt)
How can his wrath pass by his people if they are partying in heaven for 7 years?

Exodus 12
26 And when your children ask you, ‘What does this ceremony mean to you?’ 27 then tell them, ‘It is the Passover sacrifice to the Lord, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt and spared our homes when he struck down the Egyptians.’” Then the people bowed down and worshiped.

29 At midnight the Lord struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. 30 Pharaoh and all his officials and all the Egyptians got up during the night, and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead.


Revelation 12
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Jesus is the Passover lamb. You know that.
His blood saves us from the damning orge wrath.
The whole Passover/Exodus story is full of end-time prophecy. The reason why Jesus & John referred us back to it.

Exodus 19
4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself





Of course, it's the announcement of the presence of God. The second coming. The last trumpet. The 7th Trumpet of Rev is just that.
Rev 11:15 Mathew 24:31 Exodus 19:19

Rev 11:15
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


Scripture flows together and tells the same story throughout.
We don't have to smash it up and paste it back together to accommodate an external theory.

Again....Israel is NOT the Church. Israel will, like Noah, like Israel during the plagues in Egypt, like the Hananiah, Azariah and Michael during the fiery furnace, be brought THROUGH the time of wrath.

The 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble,....not our trouble!

The Church is taken OUT of the time of wrath. We are in the Fathers House, Rev 4&5. The Trib starts in Rev6.