Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Plus, Jesus is "received in heaven UNTIL the restoration". Or remains, or stays. That completely eviserates a pre-trib rapture.

Again, it doesn't say, "UNTIL the restoration"... It says, "...UNTIL the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age"

Do you really think there is a material difference between "until the time of restoration" and "until the times of restoration"? If so, please explain, because I don't. Thanks.

I've said (over and over) "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" *is* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (or at the very least, its inauguration)... located ON THE EARTH, so yes, they are about to "head back down... TO it [FOR its commencing]"...

Sorry, I'm not following this.

--the "HAVING BEEN INVITED" part speaks of the "INVITATION" that has been going on throughout the trib years ON THE EARTH, done by the "inviters" (I already spelled that out in past posts--those "INVITERS" are "on the earth" in/during/within the trib yrs... they are "INVITING" TO the earthly MK age / "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [also "on the earth, i.e. the earthly MK age]... this pertains to "the invited 'GUESTS [PLURAL]'"--"those [plural] having been INVITED [perfect tense]" Rev19:9)...

--"the MARRIAGE" itself (Rev19:7) is DISTINCT, and pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]"... and for that, the text just says, "[the marriage] CAME" (see below) and "[bride/wife] PREPARED" (see below):

1) "CAME" - this same word is used HERE: Matthew 12:42 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) Matt12:42 "[re: queen of the south] she CAME" (a long time before this thing that was now being SAID of her, in this text);

2) "PREPARED" - this same word is used here: Greek Concordance: ἡτοίμασεν (hētoimasen) -- 3 Occurrences (biblehub.com) , one example: 1Cor2:9 - "has not entered into heart of man, what God PREPARED for those loving Him." (How long before this was said in 1Cor2, had He "PREPARED"?)

I've already addressed Rev 19. The wording doesn't suggest a prior event, but one that is about to occur.

My contention is that "the MARRIAGE" itself has taken place IN HEAVEN, by this point (pertaining solely to "the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]"), and now they are headed back down to the earth FOR "the marriage FEAST/SUPPER/FESTIVITIES" (the earthly MK, its inauguration... WHERE those [plural] "having been INVITED" [throughout the earthly TRIB yrs], i.e. "the GUESTS [PLURAL]" [etc], are still-located / have never "lifted off" from, and don't ever, because "Rapture" does not pertain to THOSE saints: both OT saints [now 'resurrected' FOR it] and Trib saints [whether having DIED in the trib and now 'resurrected' FOR it; or are 'still-living' like Dan12:12's "BLESSED" and about 8 parallel passages to this, as I've said])

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I've pointed out 1Cor12:12, "For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is the Christ" (Paul points this out over and over and over, in many different ways)... see also, Eph5 - "[...] even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."... Then see also Gen2:22 - "And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him." (This took place ON THE SIXTH DAY, not "the 7th [/the LAST] day" [pertaining to others, as both Job and Martha acknowledged and KNEW WELL (it was NO "MYSTERY" to them!)].)

Sorry, but I fail to see how this supports a pre-trib U-turn.

...doubt I can convince you...

I would be convinced IF IF IF there were verses that clearly indicate that Jesus resurrects/raptures "those who belong to Him" and takes them back to heaven. That would do it.

But all I see are constructs. No evidence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He is simply attempting to use that scripture to restrict the Lord so that He is unable to leave heaven in order to gather His church

This is a cheap shot. I'm not "restricting the Lord" in any way. I've presented scholarly work on Acts 3:21, from the Analytical Greek Lexicon regarding "dechomai". That lexicon renders "heaven must receive" as "heaven must receive and retain, contain".

That is clear evidence that Jesus stays in heaven. And I had nothing to do with it. It wasn't my idea either. I'm not making up anything. And I have no constructs.

which is just ridiculous!

It is the unsupported constructs that are "ridiculous".

It's the equivalent of those who attempt to use Eccl.9:5 to prove soul-sleep, while ignoring all the rest of the scriptures that prove the conscious awareness of the spirit after death.

I'm still waiting for the "rest of the Scriptures" that clearly indicate that Jesus makes a U-turn with the resurrected/raptured saints and goes back to heaven.

Until then.....

They grab a scripture to prove their point, then sweep the rest under the rug

I've swept nothing under any rug. I've given scholarly work that supports what I believe. Plus the zero verses that tell us that Jesus takes resurrected/raptured saints back to heaven.

or provide false apologetics in order to circumvent the truth.

If you are insinuating that I've done this, please be clear as to what is false in what I've posted.

This seems to be the status quo. However, below is what is really happening:

"For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."

I'm sure you are well aware that either side of any argument is tempted to use this verse against their opponents. Nothing new here.

Just provide the clear verses about Jesus taking all the resurrected/raptured saints back to heaven. That would do it for me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, the thing about the "Acts 3" thing (which many ppl miss) is this, Peter is talking to "ye men of Israel" (yet unsaved persons) who are thinking, "duh, that weren't him [our Messiah], coz look, he's DEAD [and everything else we didn't like about him ]"... a ppl who were EXPECTING ONLY the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecy (re: Him), but who (Peter is saying) had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED the "Suffering Servant" aspects of the OT prophecies (re: Him).

No, that's NOT "the thing" about Acts 3:21. Yes, Peter was speaking to unsaved Jews. He even directly accused them of killing Jesus. But then Peter makes the point about Jesus staying in heaven (Analytical Greek Lexicon) as a reason He is not around for everyone to see. That's why he said what he did.

The "Amill-teachings" (not that FG2 is one)

I am definitely not one of those.

Peter is simply saying, to them, what you've witnessed (or see evidence of) so far was the "Suffering Servant" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (SAME PERSON as who will fulfill the "conquering KING" aspects, which Paul later says, "which IN HIS TIMES [G2540] He shall [future tense] shew [openly manifest]... King of kings and Lord of lords" [<--a phrase used only elsewhere in Rev19, & Rev17 in reverse order]... and His "cut off" aspects of OT prophecies regarding Him (the things you "ye men of Israel" sitting before me now have OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED in your EXPECTATION [only] of the "conquering KING" aspects of OT prophecies...)

Actually, Peter said none of this. He explained WHY Jesus wasn't walking around for everyone to see the FACT of His resurrection.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

FreeGrace2 said:
Plus, Jesus is "received in heaven UNTIL the restoration". Or remains, or stays. That completely eviserates a pre-trib rapture.

Do you really think there is a material difference between "until the time of restoration" and "until the times of restoration"? If so, please explain, because I don't. Thanks.

Clearly *you have not read past the first sentence of what I put, because I *did* explain.
And it took me a long time to type that all out.

Sorry, I'm not following this.

"the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL]"


My five year old children understood this simple concept.

I've already addressed Rev 19. The wording doesn't suggest a prior event, but one that is about to occur.

*ditto what I said at the top section of this post

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Fine with me. = ) You're perfectly free to disagree.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this supports a pre-trib U-turn.

Rev5:9 says "hast redeemed US" (BEFORE the FIRST SEAL [aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Mt24:4/Mk13:5]" ] is opened to commence unfolding upon the earth, and the REST of the BEGINNING of birth PANGS, let alone ALL of them that follow on from THOSE...)

I would be convinced IF IF IF there were verses that clearly indicate that Jesus resurrects/raptures "those who belong to Him" and takes them back to heaven. That would do it.

But all I see are constructs. No evidence.

Same thing those "ye men of Israel" said (like I showed in my last post) about Jesus and the OT prophecies concerning their expected Messiah... "I DON'T SEE IT!"... coz the prophecies concerning Him were like spattered-in-piecemeal-type-fashion throughout the OT, and some like the Isa passage spoke also of a baby born "back then," but yet speaks "prophetically" about Jesus Himself... etc etc... There wasn't just "ONE SENTENCE EXPLAINING IT ALL, FULL STOP." Thus, "U-turn" is not going to be in the SAME SENTENCE that "caught up" and His "descend" is located... just like the "be changed"/"clothed upon"/"must put on immortality" speaks regarding the "we which are ALIVE and remain" aspect of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at the time-slot being referenced [in these three distinct locations in Scripture, but "UNDERSTOOD" when "put together" correctly - Strong's Greek: 4907. σύνεσις (sunesis) -- a running together, spec. understanding (biblehub.com) ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Acts 15 -

13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Simeona has related how God first visited to take out of [ex / ek] the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

16 ‘After these things I will return

and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,

and its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will set it upright,

17 so that the remnant of men may seek out the Lord,

and all the Gentiles, upon whom has been called My name, upon them,

says the Lord, doing these things,

18 known from eternity.’b [see Amos 9:11,12... as well as Amos 8:2 in view of Amos 7:8]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Revelation 5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"


[in contrast to the "[singular] nation"... like is later shown in the listing of Rev7:4-8 (on the earth during trib); But PRESENTLY (NOW) Israel is "lo ammi"... but not THEN (future)]

 

[FreeGrace2]

Clearly *you have not read past the first sentence of what I put, because I *did* explain.
And it took me a long time to type that all out.

Here is your post:
FreeGrace2 said:
"Plus, Jesus is "received in heaven UNTIL the restoration". Or remains, or stays. That completely eviserates a pre-trib rapture."

Then, you responded:
"Again, it doesn't say, "UNTIL the restoration"... It says, "...UNTIL the TIMES of restoration OF ALL THINGS OF WHICH GOD SPOKE BY the mouth of all His holy prophets from the age" (which I'm saying commences just after He ceases the "sit" thing, and does the "descend" thing, which is immediately followed by the "STAND to JUDGE" thing in Rev5:6 [Isa3:13]... with the opening of SEAL #1 [i.e. INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"] at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, aka the 7-yr trib)"

"after He ceases the 'sit thing'..and does the 'descend thing'...followed by the 'stand thing'...with opening of seal #1...at the start of the 'in quickness (noun) time period aka 7 year tribulation".

Seriously? This is your explanation? It makes no sense. Just a bunch of "things". So again, in plain English this time, what's the difference between "time of restoration" and "times of restoration", as if there is one.

"the BRIDE/WIFE [SINGULAR]" is NOT "the INVITED GUESTS [PLURAL]"
My five year old children understood this simple concept.

Well, then, they are as smart as I am. I never said bride/wife WAS the invited guests.

Fine with me. = ) You're perfectly free to disagree.

Thanks. I appreciate the freedom.

Rev5:9 says "hast redeemed US" (BEFORE the FIRST SEAL [aka the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Mt24:4/Mk13:5]" ] is opened to commence unfolding upon the earth, and the REST of the BEGINNING of birth PANGS, let alone ALL of them that follow on from THOSE...)

Christ has REDEEMED all believers on the cross. What does that have to do with end times? And...no "things" in your explanation this time.

Same thing those "ye men of Israel" said (like I showed in my last post) about Jesus and the OT prophecies concerning their expected Messiah... "I DON'T SEE IT!"... coz the prophecies concerning Him were like spattered-in-piecemeal-type-fashion throughout the OT, and some like the Isa passage spoke also of a baby born "back then," but yet speaks "prophetically" about Jesus Himself... etc etc...

OK, let's be clear. Yes, they didn't see the King. They also didn't see Him in the flesh. Paul was explaining WHY they couldn't see Him in the flesh. Heaven received Him UNTIL the times of restoration. iow, NO ONE would see Him until He returned a SECOND time.

There wasn't just "ONE SENTENCE EXPLAINING IT ALL, FULL STOP." Thus, "U-turn" is not going to be in the SAME SENTENCE that "caught up" and His "descend" is located... just like the "be changed"/"clothed upon"/"must put on immortality" speaks regarding the "we which are ALIVE and remain" aspect of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" at the time-slot being referenced [in these three distinct locations in Scripture, but "UNDERSTOOD" when "put together" correctly - Strong's Greek: 4907. σύνεσις (sunesis) -- a running together, spec. understanding (biblehub.com) ]

Your long sentence "explanations" fail to do so.

There is NO REASON why a "U-turn" can't be in the same sentence, or at least same paragraph/context about the resurrection and rapture of all believers. Of course they would occur together.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Acts 15 -

13 And after they were silent, James answered, saying, “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Simeona has related how God first visited to take out of [ex / ek] the Gentiles a people for His name. 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:

16 ‘After these things I will return

and will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen,

and its ruins I will rebuild,

and I will set it upright,

17 so that the remnant of men may seek out the Lord,

and all the Gentiles, upon whom has been called My name, upon them,

says the Lord, doing these things,

18 known from eternity.’b [see Amos 9:11,12... as well as Amos 8:2 in view of Amos 7:8]

And the point here is.....?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Revelation 5:9 -

"And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of [ek] every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"


[in contrast to the "[singular] nation"... like is later shown in the listing of Rev7:4-8 (on the earth during trib); But PRESENTLY (NOW) Israel is "lo ammi"... but not THEN (future)]

And the point here is?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

No, that's NOT "the thing" about Acts 3:21. Yes, Peter was speaking to unsaved Jews. He even directly accused them of killing Jesus. But then Peter makes the point about Jesus staying in heaven (Analytical Greek Lexicon) as a reason He is not around for everyone to see. That's why he said what he did.

Well, it almost seems to me like you are missing much of Peter's point just like the "Amill-teachings" do (in a different way)... so I'll put this here and you can consider it:


Acts 3 -

--vv.13,26 "His *SERVANT Jesus" (*speaking of the "RAISE" aspect meaning "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death, i.e. His earthly ministry [these ppl now in front of Peter had REJECTED]); "unto YOU FIRST God... SENT HIM" (i.e. in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death);

--v.18 "which God before had shewed by... that Christ should SUFFER...";

--v.22 "... 'A PROPHET shall the Lord your God *RAISE UP unto you of your brethren, like unto me [me-Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say UNTO YOU" (*speaking of the "RAISE" aspect meaning "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death; i.e. His earthly ministry [these ppl now in front of Peter had REJECTED]... "RAISE / RAISED" (esp in vv.22,26) used in the same way that Acts 7:18 is used of "Till another king AROSE [/RAISED UP] which knew not Joseph" --clearly NOT meaning "FROM THE DEAD" but rather "to a POSITION OF PROMINENCE"... THAT kind of "raise/rose");

--v.24 "Yea, and all the prophets FROM SAMUEL and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold OF THESE DAYS" (of His "SUFFERING SERVANT" days / earthly ministry, and being REJECTED), per 1 Samuel 8:7 [see also 12:12] - "And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you. For it is not you they have REJECTED, but they have REJECTED Me as their king"...

...same thing that Jesus referred to in Luke 19:14 "But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We are not willing for this man to reign over us.'" reflective of Joseph's FIRST DREAM [corresponding to Christ's FIRST ADVENT (the 2nd dream being re: His 2nd)], where his brethren had said to him in Gen37:8, "“Are you indeed to reign [H4427] over us? Or are you indeed to rule [H4910] over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words."


All of the above is speaking of the ONE aspect of "RAISE" (the one that means, "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death--i.e. SERVANT... A PROPHET [SENT and SAYING UNTO THEM things]... (and) REJECTION [/'CUT OFF and have nothing' Dan9:26a (Jer11:19 and all the parallels speaking of Jesus in His "arrest & [court-]trials" and "DEATH on the Cross"--see also Isa53:8 "CUT OFF from the land of the living"--then see refs to "the land of the living" 7x in Ezek [26:20 & chpt 32], noting also v.2 of chpt 26, for context)]




...whereas v.15's "RAISED from the dead" speaks of AFTER He died, meaning, [RAISED] in His resurrection. (not to mention the "hath glorified" part of v.13a)


____________

In their zeroing in ONLY on their EXPECTATION for the "conquering KING" aspect, they had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED the things concerning His "SUFFERING servant" aspects of the prophecies...

V.18 tells of the FIRST thing that would happen...

whereas v.21 is speaking of THE REST OF THE STORY [they'd overlooked in their REJECTION OF Him]...

(but not merely a "singular point in time" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, see--That's how I see it, DUE TO what Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] is saying, etc... as I've put in past posts... "sit/seated" (NOW)... THEN "descend"... THEN "STAND to JUDGE" [UP IN Heaven]... THEN "RETURN" to the earth [Rev19 "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" and all that...])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT meant to say:


V.18 tells of the FIRST thing that would happen... [SUFFERING SERVANT aspect they'd overlooked (of the prophecies) in their REJECTION OF Him (THUS THEMSELVES FULFILLING THOSE VERY PROPHECIES! [lol... It's Him alright!! ])]...

whereas v.21 is speaking of THE REST OF THE STORY (but this "GLORIES meta tauta" / "meta tauta GLORIES" do not merely commence at His "RETURN" to the earth)--"ALL THINGS" (the rest that THEY thought should happen NOW [as THEIR "proof" it was HIM/MESSIAH], and is why they REJECTED Him)

 

[Kolistus]

Yes, those "left behind" folks are going to be just as ignorant as the Antediluvians were about the fact that the shutting of the Ark door had sealed their doom 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground and they didn't even know it, right?

You do not see any pattern there? Noah is in the ark 7 days before.

Church is where how long before the trib?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is NO REASON why a "U-turn" can't be in the same sentence, or at least same paragraph/context about the resurrection and rapture of all believers. Of course they would occur together.

First of all, where Paul (in 1Cor15:51-54--at the end of an entire chpt covering the Subject of "Resurrection") makes reference to "THIS corruptible" and "THIS mortal"... he is NOT speaking of ALL the saints of ALL TIME periods being "resurrected"; "Behold, *I* SHEW you A MYSTERY" (not something Daniel and Job and Martha ALREADY WELL-KNEW!)--this is what God specifically tasked Paul with doing.

Secondly, YOU say "there's no reason"... but you are failing to recognize Paul's CONTRASTING the TWO "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace FOLLOWING "our Rapture" when he is speaking of that "future time-period" at either end of his BOOKENDED CONTEXT of BOTH CHPTS: 2Th1&2 (TWO *opposite* "beliefs" ppl will be coming to THEN!); this will BEGIN to open your eyes to the REASONS WHY the Spirit has placed info in the NT writings as they are, rather than how *you* are demanding they be put. (ONE "belief" [they will come to embrace] being what 2Th2:10-12 shows (*GOD SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that)... and the OTHER "belief" being on the OTHER front-end of the BOOKENDS... BOTH speaking of the SAME *future time-period* [just as the OT uses these phrases together in the same context to refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD], that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"...

[*for God to have spelled it all out in one succinct sentence, like *you expect* He should have, would DEFEAT His OWN STATED PURPOSE here in this text (2Th2:10-12 specifically)... which again, is one of the two BOOKENDS telling of that FUTURE time period and the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace THEN (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"); this is ALSO why He placed the words "STASIS / STASIN" in Heb8:8-9a (a PARABLE for the PRESENT TIME), and the word "APO STASIS / APO STASIA" in 2Th2:3... because of His STATED PURPOSE for that "future time period" ("SO THAT")--very similarly to how He says what He says in Matt13:13-15 ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: "in Heb9:8-9a"

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

My friend is this took me about two seconds of effort on a search engine....I hope it helps. Godbless you in your searching for the truth.

https://beginningandend.com/what-did-ancient-church-fathers-believe-about-the-rapture/

Thanks for posting this.

I don't have a strong opinion on escatology, I don't understand it enough to argue about it. Mostly I'm just trying to figure out where I stand.

Good day, Blackpowerduelist!

Below is a chronological summary of end-time events:

* We are here

* The Lord appears in the air and gathers the church, taking them back to the Father's house

* The wrath of God (seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses plagues, beasts reign, etc.)

* After the 7th bowl the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* Beast and false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan bound in the Abyss during the thousand years

* Great tribulation saints resurrected

* Millennial kingdom

* Satan released from the Abyss at the end of the thousand years to deceive one last time

* Satan thrown into the lake of fire

* Great white throne judgment of the unrighteous dead and cast into the lake of fire

* New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem

* Eternity

=================================================================

So, the next event to take place, will be when the Lord appears and gathers the church, dead and living, taking them back to the Father's house, which would be in heaven.

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age is another event which will take place after the 7th bowl judgment and which will complete God's wrath. It is at this time that the Lord will establish His millennial kingdom.

Many come to wrong conclusions, because they interpret the two events above as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. The problem with that, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God. Since Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. They have been reconciled to God. In addition, scripture makes clear that believers in the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, neither the wrath that is quickly approaching upon this earth, nor at the great white throne judgment.

I know this sounds like arguement, but let assume the best of each other.
In Revelation 9 there is an angel who unleashed monster locusts who are told not to harm those with the seal of God.

And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit. He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft. Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
Revelation 9:1‭-‬4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.9.1-4.ESV

The only people sealed of God are us his saints redeemed by the Lord Jesus. This passage wod imply that the church is here at least during this event which is the fifth angel.

A reading of revelation seems to have the church out between the sixth and seventh seal, but the 8th chapter could be an aside, however the reading says, after this I saw.

 

[Kolistus]

Why did none of the church believe this until John Darby?

Why did none of the Church believe in justification by faith until Martin Luther?

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Why did none of the Church believe in justification by faith until Martin Luther?

That's not true. The fathers can be quoted endlessly, on the subject.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Why did none of the Church believe in justification by faith until Martin Luther?

Both Augustine, and Ambrose who came prior to Luther were advocates of sola fide.

 

[Guojing]

Since you seem averse to answering questions for clarification, that's fine with me.

I answered, you just ignored what I said and keep making new points.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Well, it almost seems to me like you are missing much of Peter's point just like the "Amill-teachings" do (in a different way)... so I'll put this here and you can consider it:


Acts 3 -

--vv.13,26 "His *SERVANT Jesus" (*speaking of the "RAISE" aspect meaning "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death, i.e. His earthly ministry [these ppl now in front of Peter had REJECTED]); "unto YOU FIRST God... SENT HIM" (i.e. in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death);

--v.18 "which God before had shewed by... that Christ should SUFFER...";

--v.22 "... 'A PROPHET shall the Lord your God *RAISE UP unto you of your brethren, like unto me [me-Moses]; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say UNTO YOU" (*speaking of the "RAISE" aspect meaning "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death; i.e. His earthly ministry [these ppl now in front of Peter had REJECTED]... "RAISE / RAISED" (esp in vv.22,26) used in the same way that Acts 7:18 is used of "Till another king AROSE [/RAISED UP] which knew not Joseph" --clearly NOT meaning "FROM THE DEAD" but rather "to a POSITION OF PROMINENCE"... THAT kind of "raise/rose");

--v.24 "Yea, and all the prophets FROM SAMUEL and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold OF THESE DAYS" (of His "SUFFERING SERVANT" days / earthly ministry, and being REJECTED), per 1 Samuel 8:7 [see also 12:12] - "And the LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you. For it is not you they have REJECTED, but they have REJECTED Me as their king"...

...same thing that Jesus referred to in Luke 19:14 "But his citizens hated him and sent a delegation after him, saying, 'We are not willing for this man to reign over us.'" reflective of Joseph's FIRST DREAM [corresponding to Christ's FIRST ADVENT (the 2nd dream being re: His 2nd)], where his brethren had said to him in Gen37:8, "“Are you indeed to reign [H4427] over us? Or are you indeed to rule [H4910] over us?” So they hated him even more for his dreams and for his words."


All of the above is speaking of the ONE aspect of "RAISE" (the one that means, "to a position of prominence" BEFORE His death--i.e. SERVANT... A PROPHET [SENT and SAYING UNTO THEM things]... (and) REJECTION [/'CUT OFF and have nothing' Dan9:26a (Jer11:19 and all the parallels speaking of Jesus in His "arrest & [court-]trials" and "DEATH on the Cross"--see also Isa53:8 "CUT OFF from the land of the living"--then see refs to "the land of the living" 7x in Ezek [26:20 & chpt 32], noting also v.2 of chpt 26, for context)]




...whereas v.15's "RAISED from the dead" speaks of AFTER He died, meaning, [RAISED] in His resurrection. (not to mention the "hath glorified" part of v.13a)


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In their zeroing in ONLY on their EXPECTATION for the "conquering KING" aspect, they had OVERLOOKED / BYPASSED the things concerning His "SUFFERING servant" aspects of the prophecies...

V.18 tells of the FIRST thing that would happen...

whereas v.21 is speaking of THE REST OF THE STORY [they'd overlooked in their REJECTION OF Him]...

(but not merely a "singular point in time" commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, see--That's how I see it, DUE TO what Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] is saying, etc... as I've put in past posts... "sit/seated" (NOW)... THEN "descend"... THEN "STAND to JUDGE" [UP IN Heaven]... THEN "RETURN" to the earth [Rev19 "wedding FEAST/SUPPER" and all that...])

None of this changes the clear meaning of v.21. Jesus REMAINS in heaven until the times of restoration.