Mary?

[Musicmaster]

MM

Just wondering you say you are catholic but not roman catholic..,is there a difference for you?
Is it to do with the Pope edicts or is it the Mary thing.

It has to do with the many doctrines introduced as official by the popes and bishops through the centuries that are not in the non-aprocryphalized Bible.

Are your family catholics, practising or 'lapsed'.

No. Just friends I've made over the years.

I had a workmate who was catholic, and she was super involved with her church. It was kind of hard to talk with her about spiritual matters since she believed and practiced some way out things. But its also a cultural thing too.

I can understand what you're saying. One or two of them are devout enough that they are entrenched very deeply, so that they fear doing any research, and so would rather just go along with what they know.

The danger in that mindset is that any and all lack for remaining vigilant about one's belief system, and thus failing to always be on the lookout for the potential of being wrong. That's simply a failure in exercising proper responsibility for what one chooses to believe.

In the end we lost touch but some of the things her church proscribed were rather disturbing. I didnt want to say she was in a cult as her enitre family identified with catholicism but she was looking around for other things cos she was spiritually empty and nearly joined the moonies! who are even worse!

Worse? If one is involved with what is already a departure from the truth, there isn't much worse left.

The term "catholic" simply means "universal." I am a member of the universal body of Christ Jesus. I'm not a denominationalist, nor am I a Protestant. I'm a biblicist. I'm also filled with the Spirit of the Lord, who instructs us all, for all truth. (1 John 2:27).

So, when RCC members think to challenge me on the idea of "sola scriptura," they are wasting their time because it's not just about scripture, for scripture is simply a tool by which I can apply the acid test for all other teachings I encounter. The Spirit of the Lord is more than powerful enough to fulfill what is promised in 1 John 2:27.

MM

 

[SophieT]

The consistent use of logic and reason and rejection of the mysterious to define faith... like it's a computer program:
if saved go to heaven else go to hell - I don't think that kind of logic works for God, or else why so many arguments i see here? why not all agree! Cause it doesn't define the subject matter, it doesn't contain it
The catholic church doesn't reject this, it says that early Christians contemplated these. i think they did too
so i think one can appreciate Catholics without having to accept everything
saying they're going to hell is silly, no-one knows that for sure do they?
Mary isn't pagan - pagan is worshiping nature and forces or animals and stuff like that
She's more like an aspect of God i suppose translated into the human Mary that are simpler to view as 'Grace' or whatever what i mean is its just their way of seeing the same thing, another viewpoint on the absolute
Nothing wrong with disagreeing! But complete rejection?

What exactly did 'early Christians' contemplate?

Paganism actually refers to beliefs other than Christianity.

Mary was a human being, unable to forgive sin and certainly not currently employed in whispering the prayers of people on this earth into the ears of Christ. There is NO OTHER WAY into God's presence than through the blood of Christ. Praying to a deceased human being, amounts to paganism in a loose sense of the word and worse, disobeying God when He says to have no other gods before Him.

Mary is not an aspect of God. Mary is a deceased human being, chosen by God, but not a part of God. To suggest that she is somehow a figure without sin and worthy of prayers or capable of answering them is a lie from those who are the enemies of God and that would include the demonic realm who inspired this lie and so much more

Definition of pagan

1: HEATHEN sense 1especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person
3: NEO-PAGANwitches, druids, goddess worshippers, and other pagans in America today— Alice Dowd

 

[PC123]

What sounds contradictory to the scriptures is always a concern to me.



I'm more afraid of what would happen had I not engaged them.



And yet they are taught the efficacy of doing such. It's not a matter of requirement so much as it is pretending that their authority for teaching such is intact within an equal/higher authority than the scriptures.



Changing their doctrines is a known impossibility, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at.



I agree that specific term is not on the scriptures, so what's your point?



Arguing on the side of the absence of specific terms we use today is a meaningless exercise when we consider what's actually revealed within scripture with the use of many other terms and concepts portrayed. So, again, what's your point?



Really? Where's your proof for that? Movies? Pray tell...



Proof for their allegedly doing such, please.



Perhaps you can explain why the apostles eventually ceased in the demonstration of such power? Paul left Timothy behind while suffering a stomach ailment. He left behind others as well without healing them, and no record of casting out demons. Paul got in the face of Peter because of his errors. Look, I'm not one to say that God can't use people today to work miracles. He is THE Sovereign over all. However, if you're going to try and lay the foundation of such things as some dudes in funny robes doing their hocus pocus of allegedly holding up and changing a pancake into the very body of Christ Jesus to be re-sacrificed on some altar, and then worshipping that pancake, then I'm all ears.



That's the counsel I would expect from Satan, not a fellow believer who shares in Christ's concern for the lost. I'm not saying you are Satan, but we know he tempts many in the world to speak to believers on the side of Christ Jesus to leave those alone who are in need of challenges for truth.



Who said anything about argument? Look, you don't have any clue about the tone of the conversations I have with my friends. You don't know me, and you don't know them. This pretense you're trying to create out of silence is only an item of your own creation. The least you can do is ask about how we dialogue rather than to demonize my words into saying something that simply is not representative of the truth. How about offering something constructive rather than trying to encourage me into perpetrating the sin of indifference toward others?

If you think the scriptures are inadequate, then please make your case. Otherwise, it's just words with no substance for their foundation to be taken seriously.

Just my thoughts in relation to your words in your post.

MM

Did I demonize your words? I apologize if it looked that way as that was never my intention...

My main concern was your relationship with your friends and family and so I just tried to.... Ah don't worry about it...

All the best and God bless

 

[Maynard]

I see y'all flamed and reported and got banned the only person speaking real truth in this thread. Christianchat never disappoints.

Hail Mary, full of grace.

Have a lovely day.

 

[PC123]

I'm catholic, just not roman catholic.

There is a difference... So u still go to Catholic church, and u know that some of their doctrines don't necessarily come directly from the bible
But you want to try and change the mind of your friends cos u feel they will be damned...

Ok then I'll tell you about my family hoping you don't take any offense again and hopefully understand my perspective a little better...

Im born and raised in Australia, my parents are Portuguese and have a huge devotion to Fatima...
Im afraid that such will cost them their salvation. Im afraid that those Fatima apparitions were not Holy at all...

So I could try to convince them but I figure
* It would only sour our families relationship
* I could be wrong anyway

And so I decided not to contest them in order to keep the peace...
Am I worried about their salvation? Off course I am, all I can do is pray for them

Anyway I'm not trying to tell u what to do or demonize you or anything...
That was just my experience... All the best, Godspeed and God bless

 

[Musicmaster]

I see y'all flamed and reported and got banned the only person speaking real truth in this thread. Christianchat never disappoints.

Hail Mary, full of grace.

Have a lovely day.

I'm not sure who you're talking about, but anyone who has some sort of evidentiary foundation to build up a case in favor of the RCC teachings about Mary, they are welcome to do so. I for one am wanting to see the evidence.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

There is a difference... So u still go to Catholic church, and u know that some of their doctrines don't necessarily come directly from the bible
But you want to try and change the mind of your friends cos u feel they will be damned...

I can't look at anyone and claim they are damned. Apart from Christ, I don't know any mortal man who can, because none of us knows what final state of beliefs any one person will possess at the moment they take their last breath.

Also, I don't know what "catholic church" you think I attend, because I attend no institutional model with buildings, cathedrals, or anything else. We sometimes meet in parks, we meet in homes, we meet at restaurants...wherever it works out for us.

Ok then I'll tell you about my family hoping you don't take any offense again and hopefully understand my perspective a little better...

Im born and raised in Australia, my parents are Portuguese and have a huge devotion to Fatima...
Im afraid that such will cost them their salvation. Im afraid that those Fatima apparitions were not Holy at all...

So I could try to convince them but I figure
* It would only sour our families relationship
* I could be wrong anyway

Then I would encourage you to read the scriptures, and pray that the One, true God of all the universe, reveal His truth to you. He has promised that He will show you His truth, and will not mislead you. (1 John 2:27)

Are you willing to do that? I'm not looking for a following. This is not about me. This is about your Lord, the One who created you and loves you with a fierce and jealous love.

Keeping the peace with family and friends at the expense of truth and salvation is not what the Lord has called us to live:

[Matthew 10:34-39] 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

And so I decided not to contest them in order to keep the peace...
Am I worried about their salvation? Off course I am, all I can do is pray for them

Anyway I'm not trying to tell u what to do or demonize you or anything...
That was just my experience... All the best, Godspeed and God bless

Thank you for sharing. I very much appreciate it.

I do not point at any "church," I point only to the Lord Himself. Please read the verses above, and even go and read that entire section of scripture so that you know its context, and that I am not misapplying it to mislead you. The Lord considers the salvation of others far more important than trying to keep the peace and family relations. There are right ways, with love, to share the Gospel, and there are many wrong ways. The Lord will give to you everything you need in order to present His Gospel.

I also know without a doubt that the Spirit of the Lord, if He be within you, will not lead you astray. Men will mislead you and others, but the Lord speaks only truth.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

In Italy, there is a cathedral where stands a bigger-than-life icon of a crucifix with their Jesus nailed to a cross, and dare one walk around to the back side of it, they observe that there is also a figure of their Mary nailed to the back side of that same cross.

Now, folks, one doesn't need to know much about the Bible to realize how false that image is in relation to the witness of the apostles and the family of the real Jesus and real Mary. What I heard from some in the RCC is very much like what I hear from lovers of modern art; where they can look at a painting of colors arranged in what looks to me like total chaos, and say, "Well, that only speaks of the fact that Mary suffered along with Christ as she watched her beloved son nailed and dying to that cross, and so was a partaker in the sufferings for the less than full measure of redemption of mankind that Jesus fulfilled...

The pure emotionalism of that statement, and others that pretty much ended up going in the same direction, had me shaking my head in a whirl wind of thoughts and questions that had no outlet for rational analysis, with some sort of solid footing in scripture.

Has anyone else here seen or heard of that image?

MM

 

[Dino246]

In Italy, there is a cathedral where stands a bigger-than-life icon of a crucifix with their Jesus nailed to a cross, and dare one walk around to the back side of it, they observe that there is also a figure of their Mary nailed to the back side of that same cross. ...
Has anyone else here seen or heard of that image?

No. What is its title? "Blasphemy"?

 

[Lanolin]

well, the catholic workmate considered becoming a nun, or a moonie marriage. I dont know whats worse, but the moonie marriage sounded a bit way out to me.

 

[Musicmaster]

well, the catholic workmate considered becoming a nun, or a moonie marriage. I dont know whats worse, but the moonie marriage sounded a bit way out to me.

Did you share the Gospel with that catholic friend?

MM

 

[Lanolin]

Did you share the Gospel with that catholic friend?

MM

yes
though I dont know if it took because she had to then work out her own salvation and I wasnt there 24/7 to disciple her. But she did start being interested in Jesus more, and reading the Bible.

I say whatever God tells me to say and the rest is up to Him.

with catholics it seems they believe in a very works based salvation, their church is so rigid its like they earn merit points so they can enter heaven. So to share that God is a gracious and loving Father instead of a massive guilt tripper out to get them and that they have an advocate in Jesus who suffered and died for their sins is really new for them. catholics are used to getting absolution by lying about what they did in the confession box, the more elaborate the lie, the more rosaries they say, the more flagellation, grovelling, tithes or whatnot, the better they feel.

 

[Musicmaster]

yes
though I dont know if it took because she had to then work out her own salvation and I wasnt there 24/7 to disciple her. But she did start being interested in Jesus more, and reading the Bible.

At least we do know the One who is there 24/7.

I say whatever God tells me to say and the rest is up to Him.

with catholics it seems they believe in a very works based salvation, their church is so rigid its like they earn merit points so they can enter heaven.

That's something I've never been able to figure out as to where they get all that. The Bible doesn't teach that. Granted, there is confusion when it comes to our English versions that use the same word for different Greek meanings. You have already hit upon it, which is "works."

James said:

[Jas 2:14, 17-18] 14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Those are some of the go-to verses my RCC friends believe back up their beliefs about the sacrament works. They do Bible studies, but their studies are based upon the colored lenses in the materials they get from their religious leaders for their Bible studies, and it involves those apocryphal books. Their study materials never seem to talk about the difference between the natural outflow of good works from a heart filled with the fruits of the Spirit of God, and physical good works to earn merit with others and their religion. They don't see the distinction between works of the law, works of service to one another, and works under the merit system of their sacraments.

Perhaps your acquaintance may benefit by understanding those distinctions. If she wants to have a more firm grip on her salvation evidenced through the fruits of the spirit without the amalgam nonsense of purgatory and sacraments, which is nowhere talked about in the Bible, this may assist in her migration toward a more biblical faith as opposed to man-made traditions.

So to share that God is a gracious and loving Father instead of a massive guilt tripper out to get them and that they have an advocate in Jesus who suffered and died for their sins is really new for them.

Oh, but this is true. It will be wonderful getting to know the real Mary in eternity. She was a godly woman, and yet also a fallen human, as she demonstrated when complaining to Jesus that the wine had run out at a wedding celebration:

[John 2:4] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.

He didn't address her as anything but by her gender when addressing her as her Creator. He never was anything or anyone other than the Creator. Even as a child, the religious leaders marveled at Him without realizing they were hearing words from their Creator. Oh, if only they had known Who was speaking to them, but the time for that revelation had not yet come.

catholics are used to getting absolution by lying about what they did in the confession box, the more elaborate the lie, the more rosaries they say, the more flagellation, grovelling, tithes or whatnot, the better they feel.

You know, deep within each of us is a desire the Lord placed within us to do good. The emotional benefits we get from doing good and the satisfaction derived from the rewards and earnings reaped from hard works, those are good things from which we greatly benefit. What's tragic is that the deeply embedded desire for reward from good works can also be triggered from false teachings. We are created in God's image, but our fallen nature is such that our fallen nature also allows those most deep and profound reactions to good things can be so easily fooled.

How to explain this...it's sort of like sex. The act releases hormones that satisfy the body. Sinful sex releases the same hormonal benefits as good sex within the confines of God's moral absolutes. If that were not true, then there would be no homosexuals in the world, for they would not get any benefit from immoral conduct in that part of life. Sex would only be an act for pro-creation when a couple was ready for a baby.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

One of the most important revelations that explains the Gospel message, as revealed by Jesus Himself to Paul of Tarsus:

[Act 26:18] To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Anyone who is not seeing the true Light is still in darkness. Satan can show himself an angel of light, but that is not the light of God. It fools so many...

MM

 

[peldom10]

Catholic teaching affirms that. Sacred Scriptures describe Mary as Holy and the mother of God. That alone makes her unique among women. Also the Holy Spirit revealed that venerating Mary would be a tradition handed down the generations.
Sacred Scriptures describe Mary as the virgin through whom the world receives salvation. No need for anything but the Gospels and common sense. Grace and peace.

Let's be honest and frank the RCC considers and treats Mary .......as a god.

 

[Musicmaster]

Let's be honest and frank the RCC considers and treats Mary .......as a god.

Their followers will deny this outright. Granted.

The problem is RCC teachings ascribing to Mary attributes that belong to God alone is problem enough for them, and they will deny this as well without considering the ramifications of their denials.

MM

 

[TMS]

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.
.......
[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

The History of the RCC is really good at showing how things came to be (the true History not the Catholics version).
The reformation was the way the truth was restored and preserved in the dark ages when Catholicism ruled. when the bible was banned and you could be killed for having a Bible God was able to keep the light shining in His remnant. Those that protested were called protestants and a protestant believed that 1. The source of truth was the bible, 2. That righteousness is by faith alone. Today most churches that claim to be protestant have forgotten what it means to be protestant and have joined hands with the RCC again. The RCC claim to be above the Bible and they haven't changed. Be careful because the pope who claims to be God on earth is making changes for the so called "good" of everyone.

 

[Musicmaster]

The History of the RCC is really good at showing how things came to be (the true History not the Catholics version).
The reformation was the way the truth was restored and preserved in the dark ages when Catholicism ruled. when the bible was banned and you could be killed for having a Bible God was able to keep the light shining in His remnant. Those that protested were called protestants and a protestant believed that 1. The source of truth was the bible, 2. That righteousness is by faith alone. Today most churches that claim to be protestant have forgotten what it means to be protestant and have joined hands with the RCC again. The RCC claim to be above the Bible and they haven't changed. Be careful because the pope who claims to be God on earth is making changes for the so called "good" of everyone.

I agree that the Bible is authoritative, and the source for the acid test I apply to any and all claims about spiritual and doctrinal matters. Those who point at what clearly are man-made traditions and things rooted in paganism can easily be seen for what they are by those of us who believe and follow what the apostles taught:

[Romans 6:17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[2 Peter 2:21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[Jude 1:3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
[Gal. 1:8-9] 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Please notice the past tense within those verses. They do not speak of any future continuance of revelations, such as the teaching that one must do the works of sacraments or anything else to receive what the Gospel delivered to us once and for all by the real apostles. The underlined portions also speak of any other "gospel", and those delivering such, are to be accursed. Additions that have been attached up to 1950, and things added beyond today, will likely be forthcoming, they are all outside and beyond what was once delivered to the real Church according to what we read in the Bible. I am content to limit my understanding and beliefs to what the apostles delivered to us and the cannon closed. The absolute sufficiency of the blood of Christ Jesus, when He said, "It is finished," I believe him, not those who preach about the many things added from before and since the death of the last apostle.

1 John 2:27

MM

 

[TMS]

True the Gospel is unchangeable and sealed by Christs blood. But God has revealed to us the things that will come to pass. Because He loves us God has shown us what to be prepared for and what watch out for in our day.
Some say don't worry, just believe and you are saved. But even Jesus said to watch. If we didn't need to worry God wouldn't have given us the chapters of the Bible that tell what will happen. True there are many false interpretations of the prophesies, but if you follow the rule of using the bible to interpret itself you will be sure to find the right interpretation.

 

[Musicmaster]

True the Gospel is unchangeable and sealed by Christs blood. But God has revealed to us the things that will come to pass. Because He loves us God has shown us what to be prepared for and what watch out for in our day.
Some say don't worry, just believe and you are saved. But even Jesus said to watch. If we didn't need to worry God wouldn't have given us the chapters of the Bible that tell what will happen. True there are many false interpretations of the prophesies, but if you follow the rule of using the bible to interpret itself you will be sure to find the right interpretation.

To be gathered up with Christ is indeed something we should be prepared. My wife brought to my remembrance the ten virgins, and only half of them made it into the wedding, with the other half left outside at the mercy of whatever was to be. The Lord didn't say they were not saved, but rather that they were not watching and prepared with enough oil for their lamps.

I have gone to the Lord's store, and have purchased extra oil in advance. I wish to encourage others to equally to acquire extra oil for their lamps that they too be prepared for His coming for us. Mary does not and cannot do that for us. She has worked out her own treasures and reward in Heaven, and is not watching people on this earth, nor listening. Thinking about the beliefs concerning Mary brings to mind Saul, and his having to get a medium to call upon the prophet for that prophet do converse with him. This nonsense that Mary has appeared to people on earth after her death, that smacks of the demonic, just as ghost hauntings of homes. The promotion, for the sake of money, things that clearly are of demonic origin should be concerning to those who are immersed in such a system of belief. There is a tribe in Central America that still sacrifices chickens to their ancestors, and yet are still in good standing with the vatican, never being chastised for their cultic practices by their local bishop, cardinals, priests, or anyone else from the RCC. That's messed up, and very telling for the lack of discernment.

MM