The knowledge of what's inside the Book of Enoch was on the scene long before a written scroll would take shape. That's what the Yiddish are making a point towards. The Manuscript is in the Second Temple Period, but the knowledge of what is known [inside the pages] of the Book of Enoch was around since the Enoch, who was father to Methusaleh and Grandfather to Noah.
The Books of Enoch.
- Thread starter 14meatcc
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
It is important in the way things developed in the history of post exile Israel.
Every serious bible student should take the time to read one or two bible college level text books on "New Testament Survey" which will educate them on the details of the history of the Jews between the testaments and trust me, the details are abundantly available from a large body of historical data. Without that abundance of detailed information one is left to imaginative ideas that are not reality.
This literature was developed by sects that were not mainline Jewish religious thought. They were reactionaries. They hived off in communal living and separated from the main leadership and presented opposing theories as to why the Jewish nation was suffering foreign occupation when they were supposedly cured from idolatry since the restoration of from the Babylonian exile.
The prophesies about their restoration were not being fulfilled even though they thought they were obeying the law and doing everything right to enjoy the blessings, so "why were they still cursed" with foreign occupation. These pseudonymous (writing under a false name) were their way of presenting their theology concerning their views of the war between good and evil and was a mixture of Greek and Jewish thought. The only ones who ever tried to champion them as authentic were those attracted to the teachings of these sects. And they were always a very small minority fringe group like the Essenes.
When people read a couple of good books on New Testament Survey to get the details on the culture and history from the Greek occupation until the Roman occupation they will discover the different religious and political movements that the Jews went through and how their Hellenized culture was formed to be what it was at the time of Christ. Part of that history deals with the development of these works of literature. They came out of these sectarian off shoots that developed probably around 165 BC but some evidence suggest 200 BC and I don't think anyone has presented serious evidence that goes back further than that. Your date 586 BC (the beginning of the second temple period) should not be used as a date for the writing of the books of Enoch as the theological arguments that prompted their writing took time to develop. And eventually they prompted attempts at explaining why they were not being blessed. Which is why they were written about 200 - 100 BC.
We need to know that historical and cultural information that was going on when these writings were developed. It is available in New Testament Survey books. The idea behind these books and classes in bible college is to familiarize the student with what the political, and cultural thought life was like at the time of Christ and what had transpired to produce it during the 400 years post Babylonian exile. The history is very rich and recorded by several historians and there is a vast amount of information that contributes to the detailed knowledge that we have on the subject. These writings play a part in that history and why they were developed and the political and cultural issues in Israel that prompted them is well known. I should say well known to those who read these books. Not so much to the average christian who reads the book of Enoch without this background information. And so we have lots of people who knowing the age of this writing want to automatically give it authenticity. Maybe their thinking is "After all anything that is 2000 years old must have been preserved for our reading?"
Now I assumed that anyone that read them would know they were written by people who did not know the God of the Bible. However I have been surprised that is not always the case. What is obvious to me is apparently not obvious to everyone else. So since just reading the books themselves do not seem to convince people I suggest reading the history of the Jews when these books were written and this is found in New Testament Survey books. That background information is what is missing when people fall for them. They don't know what most scholars know and if they did they would not ever suggest that these books were from Enoch or from orthodox Jewish thought.
Every serious bible student should take the time to read one or two bible college level text books on "New Testament Survey" which will educate them on the details of the history of the Jews between the testaments and trust me, the details are abundantly available from a large body of historical data. Without that abundance of detailed information one is left to imaginative ideas that are not reality.
This literature was developed by sects that were not mainline Jewish religious thought. They were reactionaries. They hived off in communal living and separated from the main leadership and presented opposing theories as to why the Jewish nation was suffering foreign occupation when they were supposedly cured from idolatry since the restoration of from the Babylonian exile.
The prophesies about their restoration were not being fulfilled even though they thought they were obeying the law and doing everything right to enjoy the blessings, so "why were they still cursed" with foreign occupation. These pseudonymous (writing under a false name) were their way of presenting their theology concerning their views of the war between good and evil and was a mixture of Greek and Jewish thought. The only ones who ever tried to champion them as authentic were those attracted to the teachings of these sects. And they were always a very small minority fringe group like the Essenes.
When people read a couple of good books on New Testament Survey to get the details on the culture and history from the Greek occupation until the Roman occupation they will discover the different religious and political movements that the Jews went through and how their Hellenized culture was formed to be what it was at the time of Christ. Part of that history deals with the development of these works of literature. They came out of these sectarian off shoots that developed probably around 165 BC but some evidence suggest 200 BC and I don't think anyone has presented serious evidence that goes back further than that. Your date 586 BC (the beginning of the second temple period) should not be used as a date for the writing of the books of Enoch as the theological arguments that prompted their writing took time to develop. And eventually they prompted attempts at explaining why they were not being blessed. Which is why they were written about 200 - 100 BC.
We need to know that historical and cultural information that was going on when these writings were developed. It is available in New Testament Survey books. The idea behind these books and classes in bible college is to familiarize the student with what the political, and cultural thought life was like at the time of Christ and what had transpired to produce it during the 400 years post Babylonian exile. The history is very rich and recorded by several historians and there is a vast amount of information that contributes to the detailed knowledge that we have on the subject. These writings play a part in that history and why they were developed and the political and cultural issues in Israel that prompted them is well known. I should say well known to those who read these books. Not so much to the average christian who reads the book of Enoch without this background information. And so we have lots of people who knowing the age of this writing want to automatically give it authenticity. Maybe their thinking is "After all anything that is 2000 years old must have been preserved for our reading?"
Now I assumed that anyone that read them would know they were written by people who did not know the God of the Bible. However I have been surprised that is not always the case. What is obvious to me is apparently not obvious to everyone else. So since just reading the books themselves do not seem to convince people I suggest reading the history of the Jews when these books were written and this is found in New Testament Survey books. That background information is what is missing when people fall for them. They don't know what most scholars know and if they did they would not ever suggest that these books were from Enoch or from orthodox Jewish thought.
-
1
- Show all
As a person older than I once was, I look back many times to remember my roots.
The knowledge from the Book of Enoch is just a looking back and remembering how the people of that time were in the [Condition] it was and the people of the current day seemed to be really involved with that during this period.
But I don't think it did anything in terms of but remembering the [olde days].
The knowledge from the Book of Enoch is just a looking back and remembering how the people of that time were in the [Condition] it was and the people of the current day seemed to be really involved with that during this period.
But I don't think it did anything in terms of but remembering the [olde days].
During this Enoch period, the prophecy of Enoch loomed heavily over the Jews before Christ arrived. They were in similar conditions we read of when Christ was born, and they wanted what Enoch Prophesied, which is the SECOND COMING, not the First. But they wanted their coming Messiah to be the King of kings and Lord of lords and give them victory. And they relied upon Enoch to think about how and what the soon coming Messiah would be like.
And this must've turned into a written scroll. Which proves it's Enoch's words and not his hand writing.
And this must've turned into a written scroll. Which proves it's Enoch's words and not his hand writing.
S
I was not being ignorant at all.
Proper Chaplaincy training includes courses on recognizing common mental illnesses so that you can know how to get people help that is beyond normal counsel. Schizophrenia has different levels of severity and chaplains are trained to recognize the signs. I recently obtained the course material from my college dormmate who was just recently certified.
I have had to deal with three or more walk ins to the church offices with schizophrenia this year alone. I have dealt with many through the years, but did not always know it was schizophrenia. From those experiences I have noticed a common trait between schizophrenia and conspiracy theories and obsession with so called "lost books of the bible" and other religious extremism.
It was their obsession with the book of Enoch and the book of Jasher that exposed one to me last week that a friend of mine was dealing with. Being her sister she suspected an increased level of illness over the past several years. They have not had this adult sister get diagnosed and that was my counsel. The perceived association of unrelated thoughts that they weave but always end up with a link to being persecuted, framed, stalked, etc.
I am not ignorant of Schizonphrenia or dementia for that matter having had real life dealings with people suffering from both and I know that pain involved.
No, not all people who obsess with what they perceive to be "lost books of the bible" that the "system" does not want us to know about, is schizophrenic, but it is a sign I have noticed when there have been all the other signs of schizophrenia in some people in religious circles.
Proper Chaplaincy training includes courses on recognizing common mental illnesses so that you can know how to get people help that is beyond normal counsel. Schizophrenia has different levels of severity and chaplains are trained to recognize the signs. I recently obtained the course material from my college dormmate who was just recently certified.
I have had to deal with three or more walk ins to the church offices with schizophrenia this year alone. I have dealt with many through the years, but did not always know it was schizophrenia. From those experiences I have noticed a common trait between schizophrenia and conspiracy theories and obsession with so called "lost books of the bible" and other religious extremism.
It was their obsession with the book of Enoch and the book of Jasher that exposed one to me last week that a friend of mine was dealing with. Being her sister she suspected an increased level of illness over the past several years. They have not had this adult sister get diagnosed and that was my counsel. The perceived association of unrelated thoughts that they weave but always end up with a link to being persecuted, framed, stalked, etc.
I am not ignorant of Schizonphrenia or dementia for that matter having had real life dealings with people suffering from both and I know that pain involved.
No, not all people who obsess with what they perceive to be "lost books of the bible" that the "system" does not want us to know about, is schizophrenic, but it is a sign I have noticed when there have been all the other signs of schizophrenia in some people in religious circles.
-
1
- Show all
S
I think you are close. The sect that was behind writing this literature were wanting the prophecies of the restoration of Israel including all the millennial blessing kingdom prophesies to come and they were convinced, just at the disciples of Jesus that they were coming, but they made up their fables about Enoch and the angels and the visions out of their own creative writing exposing their Greek philosophical and mythical and Greek Gnosticism in their writings which anyone who is familiar with other gnostic writings from the time can easily recognize. I use the term Gnosticism to describe their religious Jewish/Greek Syncretic philosophy, even though that word was not used to describe it until much later.
Their writing was an attempt to "give hope" to those who wanted answers as to why the kingdom of God had not yet come and why they were still in oppression. But they were not told by God to write this fairy tail and their view of God is not the God of the Bible.
Their writing was an attempt to "give hope" to those who wanted answers as to why the kingdom of God had not yet come and why they were still in oppression. But they were not told by God to write this fairy tail and their view of God is not the God of the Bible.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Yes, Enoch pleased God. That's not the question here, though. It is whether the book of Enoch is legit and should be a part of the Bible. I'm no scholar or anything. I started trying to read it a few years ago and had to stop. It just does not seem to jive with the word of God and sounds like some made up fairy tale. IMHO
-
1
- Show all
S
Yes, is says he WALKED with God. Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
However those writings from 200 - 100 BC were not written by Enoch who was translated some 3000 years before that.
What we do know about Enoch is that he walked with God.
Now it was also said that Adam walked with God in the Garden.
Enoch lived 365 years with Adam before God took Enoch. Adam died after Enoch was taken.
Seth had a son named Enos and then began men to call upon the name of the Lord or By the name of the Lord. This is the best translation of all those who debate it. It simply means they found the need to define themselves as those who were the people of God because there was another civilization east of Eden that did not. (Children of men)
Then we know that Enoch had a prophesy that Jude tells us about. That the Lord was coming to judge the wicked who spoke harsh words against him. This gives us the indication that Enoch was contending with some people who spoke harsh words about God and any promise of his coming to judge anyone.
Seth knew about this and all those mentioned in the genealogy of the sons of God. Seth lived 55 years after Enoch was taken.
We know that Enoch had faith and pleased God and that he walked with God.
My theory, is that Enoch heard from Adam's own lips about walking with God in the Garden. Enoch had faith that he could also walk with God and his faith was such that he did Walk with God and pleased God by this faith that would not be denied and believed that he could have the fellowship with God that Adam lost that God heard him and translated him.
Then after the rest of the sons of God (Adam, Seths, Enoch's camp who called themselves by the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26) had gradually married women in Cains Camp (daughters of men who were fair, as mentioned also in Gen 4 in Cains genealogy such as the daughter Naanmah) then there were no more sons of God left except for Noah and it was said that Noah Walked with God. He was the last of the God Walkers.
See while sci fi fans are focused on Watchers and fallen angels the real message is about the God Walkers and what caused them to drift away.
Don't get distracted with the wrong message. These scriptures have nothing to do with angel human hybrids and everything to do with backsliders and apostacy.
However those writings from 200 - 100 BC were not written by Enoch who was translated some 3000 years before that.
What we do know about Enoch is that he walked with God.
Now it was also said that Adam walked with God in the Garden.
Enoch lived 365 years with Adam before God took Enoch. Adam died after Enoch was taken.
Seth had a son named Enos and then began men to call upon the name of the Lord or By the name of the Lord. This is the best translation of all those who debate it. It simply means they found the need to define themselves as those who were the people of God because there was another civilization east of Eden that did not. (Children of men)
Then we know that Enoch had a prophesy that Jude tells us about. That the Lord was coming to judge the wicked who spoke harsh words against him. This gives us the indication that Enoch was contending with some people who spoke harsh words about God and any promise of his coming to judge anyone.
Seth knew about this and all those mentioned in the genealogy of the sons of God. Seth lived 55 years after Enoch was taken.
We know that Enoch had faith and pleased God and that he walked with God.
My theory, is that Enoch heard from Adam's own lips about walking with God in the Garden. Enoch had faith that he could also walk with God and his faith was such that he did Walk with God and pleased God by this faith that would not be denied and believed that he could have the fellowship with God that Adam lost that God heard him and translated him.
Then after the rest of the sons of God (Adam, Seths, Enoch's camp who called themselves by the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26) had gradually married women in Cains Camp (daughters of men who were fair, as mentioned also in Gen 4 in Cains genealogy such as the daughter Naanmah) then there were no more sons of God left except for Noah and it was said that Noah Walked with God. He was the last of the God Walkers.
See while sci fi fans are focused on Watchers and fallen angels the real message is about the God Walkers and what caused them to drift away.
Don't get distracted with the wrong message. These scriptures have nothing to do with angel human hybrids and everything to do with backsliders and apostacy.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Isn't it ironic to think about the parallelism of the Second Temple era, going into how they believed the Coming of the Messiah would be like [warrior and victorious], is very much like our own [modern day] view of the Second Coming of Christ. And here we are again, {just like the Second Temple Period Jews}, with [Enoch's Prophecy] being at the center of some idealism's. And it does factually go with the descriptions from the Major/Minor Prophets, 3 of the 4 Gospels, Jude and Revelation concerning the same topic.
We are mimicking the Second Temple Period Jews in [Waiting] for our Messiah to Come.
We have fulfilled a complete circle.
S
We have progressive revelation. What the disciple envisioned was not quite right and they preached a fuller revelation of Christ and his coming kingdom. The NOW and the NOT YET aspects of the Kingdom. There is a coming Kingdom that destroys all other kingdoms and fills the earth and yet only those who enter into that kingdom by being born again now will partake of it later, This was not understood before Jesus explained it. We are not just looking for a Jewish Kingdom to come as they were. We know so much more about it now. And yet it is still future in it's grand fulfilment.
Agreed!
But if we were to match timelines of the Second Temple Period Jews, and we can clearly see their teachings in the use of Enoch here and understand their frame of mind. We are in that same position but like you point out, with a viewpoint of the [other side]. But nonetheless, the parallelism is strikingly obvious.
And both scenarios [Second Temple Period Jews and us today] are headed into a period that ends the prior way of life. For them, the LAW and soon destruction of Jerusalem and Temple. For us, the end of this sinful world and existence with the time of the Gentile being fulfilled.
But if we were to match timelines of the Second Temple Period Jews, and we can clearly see their teachings in the use of Enoch here and understand their frame of mind. We are in that same position but like you point out, with a viewpoint of the [other side]. But nonetheless, the parallelism is strikingly obvious.
And both scenarios [Second Temple Period Jews and us today] are headed into a period that ends the prior way of life. For them, the LAW and soon destruction of Jerusalem and Temple. For us, the end of this sinful world and existence with the time of the Gentile being fulfilled.
-
1
- Show all
S
The expectation has been there since the time of Enoch if you want to get technical about it. His very prophesy shows that he himself had an expectation and I am sure that all those in the camp of the sons of God that heard him and believed him had an expectation of the coming Judge with ten thousands of his saints. (Jude, not the book of Enoch)
And so from the foundation of the earth man was given a hope of a redeemer and a restoration. Job knew something about it. All the prophets were given a revelation about it. The church was born with a promise that He would come again as he went up. It seems that it has always been God's plan for the God Walkers to walk in the tension of the NOW and the NOT YET. Earnestly desiring to be with Him which is far better but also to be faithful to fulfill their call to their fellow man in the right now. And yet never be satisfied with anything this world offers, looking for a better home, and longing to Walk With GOD. HALLELUJAH!!!
And so from the foundation of the earth man was given a hope of a redeemer and a restoration. Job knew something about it. All the prophets were given a revelation about it. The church was born with a promise that He would come again as he went up. It seems that it has always been God's plan for the God Walkers to walk in the tension of the NOW and the NOT YET. Earnestly desiring to be with Him which is far better but also to be faithful to fulfill their call to their fellow man in the right now. And yet never be satisfied with anything this world offers, looking for a better home, and longing to Walk With GOD. HALLELUJAH!!!
-
1
- Show all
Yes, and it came off the end of the Flood. It grew roots in the world after Noah. It represented a smaller scale scene of the world before the flood. And today, even with the House a couple days ago passing this new LBGT&Q Bill/Rights, those roots are like anchors awaiting God's Judgement!
-
1
- Show all