Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Truth7t7]

Already been through this. Kinda getting tired.

Since you don't believe the number "1,000", which occurs 6 times in Revelation 20 refers to time, please explain each of these verses that what is being referred to.

Rev 20-
2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

Also note the words "ended" and "are over". If time is not what 1,000 years mean, then also explain what is being "ended" and "are over".

The scripture is very clear and easy to understand, as it clearly interprets (Deceive The Nations) within it's very own context

Many want to falsely claim satan cant be presently bound, because deception and evil is present?

The scripture clearly teaches satan is bound from one specific purpose in (Deceiving The Nations) and the interpretation is clearly given in verses 7-8 (Deceive The Nations To Battle) it's that simple.

Revelation 20:1-2 & 7-8KJV
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[ewq1938]

You didn't answr my question: pre-tribber or post-tribber??

I answered the question that was for post-tribbers so I did answer which doctrine I believe in.

Also, all believers are glorified when Jesus returns at the Second Coming. So, yes, they will be part of the Millennial Kingdom, ruling with Christ.

But my comment was about MORTAL believers in the kingdom. Do you believe there will be mortal believers in the Millennium?

Normally I would think all believers would be glorified but I suppose it's possible that someone believed but there were some other issues (weak faith etc) that God could decide they were not worthy of being glorified then I guess that type of situation is possible. I also believe the purpose of the thousand years is to bring the Gospel to mortals so they can be saved so they would be mortal believers and living in that time period.

 

[Evmur]

Yes
The wrath we are not appointed to is eternal damnation.
Tribulation is the persecution of the enemy not the wrath of God which is poured out on the wicked.

Jesus said "in the world you will have tribulation" this shows that tribulation comes from man.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Scripture is very clear, easy to understand

Yes, I agree. When the Bible says a thousand years, and clearly defines it by when it ENDS, and IS OVER, I fully understand that the Bible is speaking about TIME. A thousand years of TIME. It's a no brainer.

(If You Can "Remove" Bias For A Millennium On Earth)?

Here's what the REAL bias is; denying that the Bible means TIME when it says a thousand years.

(Vs. 4) Below John saw (SOULS) of beheaded tribulation saints, that are physically dead.

(Vs. 5) John again confirms the (SOULS) are dead with the statement (The Rest Of The Dead)

This isn't the issue at all.

The dead (Souls) live and reign with Jesus Christ in the (Spiritual Realm) of no time, one day is a thousand years 2 Peter 3:8 (Be Not Ignorant)

What you STILL haven't proven with evidence is your presumption that they reign with Jesus in the (spiritual realm). That's where you're bias has blinded you to the truth.

You cant claim the (SOULS) have physical bodies, when the scripture clearly teaches, they are physically dead

Well, trying reading the passage again.

[QUOET]Will you bend and twist the very clear presented truth?[/QUOTE]
How about you bending your bias back straight to the truth?

Revelation 20:4-5KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Real easy. Note what is clearly stated in v.5; the rest of the dead LIVED NOT AGAIN...

It is clear from the context that the martyrs DID LIVE AGAIN, which is why John ended v.5 with "this is the first resurrection". He sure wasn't referring to the "rest of the dead", but the martyrs.

So, the ones described in v.4 LIVED AGAIN. This is the first resurrection.

In addition to be amillennial, are you also a Sadducee as well? Do you believe in a literal resurrection of the dead or not?

Your views aren't close to Scripture.

And you didn't explain what John meant by "when the thousand years were ENDED" and the "thousand years ARE OVER".

If not TIME, then what, in your own mind?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You didn't answr my question: pre-tribber or post-tribber??

I answered the question that was for post-tribbers so I did answer which doctrine I believe in.

I guess you just don't know how to be clear then. Even your answer here didn't answer my question.

Answering a question "that was for post-tribbers" doesn't define where you stand. But I guess you don't understand that.

I've answered from both pre-tribbers and post-tribbers. Both sides can have questions of others on their side.

So again, which are you?

Normally I would think all believers would be glorified but I suppose it's possible that someone believed but there were some other issues (weak faith etc) that God could decide they were not worthy of being glorified then I guess that type of situation is possible.

And...you have exactly no evidence for such unbiblical views.

Believers aren't counted worthy based on their own efforts. Believers are worthy because they are in union with Christ, whose efforts were totally worthy.

I also believe the purpose of the thousand years is to bring the Gospel to mortals so they can be saved so they would be mortal believers and living in that time period.

If that were true, then what evidence shows that they will ultimately receive glorified bodies?

And if that is true, there are a whole lot of believer resurrections happening.

Naw.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Jesus said "in the world you will have tribulation" this shows that tribulation comes from man.

However, the verse doesn't say or suggest that it comes from man.

And the Great Tribulation is clearly from God. It's His wrath being poured out on an evil world.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus said "in the world you will have tribulation" this shows that tribulation comes from man.

It just means "trouble."

Man and the devil.
Sometimes together
Sometimes separate

 

[ewq1938]

However, the verse doesn't say or suggest that it comes from man.

And the Great Tribulation is clearly from God. It's His wrath being poured out on an evil world.

That's wrong. The Great Tribulation is persecution of Christians by Satan and the AC. God's wrath comes at the 7th trump when the Great Tribulation is over.


Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

False Christ's are warned about.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

These are Christians being delivered up. Hated because of Christ's name! This proves that Christ is talking about Christians when he says "you".

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


The gospel of the kingdom is about Christ and is delivered by Christians.


Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Ye" are Christians.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

"Ye" is still the same people, Christians.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians per the context of this passage.

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Again, a warning about false Christs given to "you" which are Christians.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Another reference to false Christ's and the Christian elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

You=Christians and yet again another false Christ reference. There is a false Christ coming to deceive Christians and those not deceived will be delivered up, persecuted and killed.


In the Olivet Discourse, the tribulation is a suffering and persecution of Jesus' Elect, or as Mark states, His chosen, who are gathered from the 4 corners of the earth to Him.

In John Jesus told His believers they would see tribulation; but they would overcome. Never does Jesus or John or Paul use the word tribulation as God's wrath upon the wicked.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's wrong. The Great Tribulation is persecution of Christians by Satan and the AC. God's wrath comes at the 7th trump when the Great Tribulation is over.

Once again you've got it all wrong. In fact, the OT describes the 7 year Tribulation as "Jacob's trouble". That's not Christians, if you're confused about that.

Second, where does the Beast #1 (aka antichrist) go to blaspheme God? The rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. It's called the abomination of desolation.

And how do you understand what Jesus said in Rev 15:1 - I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues —last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. iow, All 3 sets of 7 judgments are from God.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

"Ye" are Christians.

Not. The "abomination of desolation" refers to the Beast #1 (aka antichrist) going into the temple in Jerusalem and telling the JEWS that he is god and to worship him.

So, the AoD is going to affect "all the world" and Christians are the targets! Christians are persecuted and murdered for the testimony of Christ and because they carry his name.

There is no doubt that Christians will be persecuted becuase Satan hates Christians as much as Jews.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The elect are Christians per the context of this passage.

To be clear, the elect there are ALL believers. Remember that in Christ, there are NO Jews or Gentiles.

In the Olivet Discourse, the tribulation is a suffering and persecution of Jesus' Elect, or as Mark states, His chosen, who are gathered from the 4 corners of the earth to Him.

When Jesus walked on earth, the word "elect" referred to the Jewish nation. I encourage you to read your Bible.

In John Jesus told His believers they would see tribulation; but they would overcome. Never does Jesus or John or Paul use the word tribulation as God's wrath upon the wicked.

Again, please read your Bible.

The book of Revelation is clearly about God's wrath on a sinful world. Have you actually read through Revelation?

 

[ewq1938]

Once again you've got it all wrong.

No, it's you that has it all backwards. The Great Tribulation is about Satan persecuting Christians. God's wrath for Satan doing that happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended. God's wrath begins here:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Anyone teaching God's wrath came before this doesn't understand scripture properly.

 

[Evmur]

Once again you've got it all wrong. In fact, the OT describes the 7 year Tribulation as "Jacob's trouble". That's not Christians, if you're confused about that.

Second, where does the Beast #1 (aka antichrist) go to blaspheme God? The rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. It's called the abomination of desolation.

And how do you understand what Jesus said in Rev 15:1 - I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues —last, because with them God’s wrath is completed. iow, All 3 sets of 7 judgments are from God.


Not. The "abomination of desolation" refers to the Beast #1 (aka antichrist) going into the temple in Jerusalem and telling the JEWS that he is god and to worship him.


There is no doubt that Christians will be persecuted becuase Satan hates Christians as much as Jews.


To be clear, the elect there are ALL believers. Remember that in Christ, there are NO Jews or Gentiles.


When Jesus walked on earth, the word "elect" referred to the Jewish nation. I encourage you to read your Bible.


Again, please read your Bible.

The book of Revelation is clearly about God's wrath on a sinful world. Have you actually read through Revelation?

Although it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" it is not the Jews who are in trouble it is the nations in trouble for the way they have treated Israel during their long diaspora.

Only once is it called "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah. 30.vs.7.
alas for that day is so great, there is none like it. It is the time of Jacob's trouble BUT....
BUT.... he shall be SAVED out of it ...

verse 10
Then fear not O Jacob My servant says the Lord nor be dismayed O Israel for lo I shall SAVE you from afar and your offspring from the land of their captivity
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease.

In saying it is the nations who will have tribulation the church at that point will still be among the nations.

 

[Evmur]

However, the verse doesn't say or suggest that it comes from man.

And the Great Tribulation is clearly from God. It's His wrath being poured out on an evil world.

God's wrath and tribulation are things quite different.

 

[Evmur]

Of course Jesus is a post tribber

After the tribulation of those days ...... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He shall send forth His angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, it's you that has it all backwards. The Great Tribulation is about Satan persecuting Christians.

I refuted that in my previous post to you. I provide the truth, but it's the responsibility of each believer to accept it.

God's wrath for Satan doing that happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended.

No. God's wrath for Satan was prophecied in Matt 25:41 - “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And that will happen after the battle of Gog and Magog in Rev 20.

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

God's wrath begins here:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Anyone teaching God's wrath came before this doesn't understand scripture properly.[/QUOTE]
Actually, your post shows that you do not understand Scripture.

Rev 11:15ff are about the 7th trumpet. You have ignored/rejected/denied the other set of God's wrath on the earth, the 7 seal judgments, in Rev 6-8. Then, FOLLOWING the 7 trumpet judgments, in Rev 8 through 11, there will be the 7 bowl judgments, in Rev 16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Although it is called "the time of Jacob's trouble" it is not the Jews who are in trouble it is the nations in trouble for the way they have treated Israel during their long diaspora.

The very wording refutes your claim. The Jews will be horribly persecuted by the first Beast (aka antichrist), esp after he enters the temple and declares himself to be God and demands that the Jews worship him.

Only once is it called "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah. 30.vs.7.

How many repetitions before something is true? Only once.

alas for that day is so great, there is none like it. It is the time of Jacob's trouble BUT....
BUT.... he shall be SAVED out of it ...

It doesn't say Jacob will be spared from pain. And, this verse refers to the fact that as Satan's world armies close in around Israel to annihilate it completely, Jesus comes and destroys the armies.

verse 10
Then fear not O Jacob My servant says the Lord nor be dismayed O Israel for lo I shall SAVE you from afar and your offspring from the land of their captivity
Jacob shall return and have quiet and ease.

To "have quiet and ease" refers to the Millennial reign of Israel's King of kings and Lord of lords.

In saying it is the nations who will have tribulation the church at that point will still be among the nations.

Yes, the NT church believers will go through the Tribulation, and when Jesus returns, He will give glorified bodies to all believers, both dead and living.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's wrath and tribulation are things quite different.

I agree that "God's wrath" can refer simply to God's discipline of His children (divine discipline), but don't discount that God's wrath will be the MAJOR theme of the 7 year Tribulation. There are 3 sets of 7 judgments against the earth and the people on it.

 

[Absolutely]

Of course Jesus is a post tribber

After the tribulation of those days ...... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He shall send forth His angels to gather the elect from the four winds of heaven.

Yes angels gather not Jesus....from heaven not earth


Then read on

"""....Before the flood..."""
Hello?????
Postrib doctrine exists for one reason.

" Omissions"

Omit those verses and .... POOOOF! Postrib rapture is born!

 

[Absolutely]

God's wrath and tribulation are things quite different.

A man beats another.
Wrath is his dynamic

The one receiving it is in tribulation ( trouble)

 

[Absolutely]

No, it's you that has it all backwards. The Great Tribulation is about Satan persecuting Christians. God's wrath for Satan doing that happens AFTER the Great Tribulation has ended. God's wrath begins here:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Anyone teaching God's wrath came before this doesn't understand scripture properly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Then read on

"""....Before the flood..."""
Hello?????

Right. How does the flood relate to the Second Coming.

Postrib doctrine exists for one reason.

Right. Because the Bible teaches that all believers are glorified when Jesus comes back to earth at the Second Advent.

" Omissions"

Right. You are omitting all the truth about the Second Advent.

Oh, in addition to your omissions of truth, you've added some opinions of your own or others; Jesus glorifies believers and takes them back to Heaven.

So, where do you find that in the Bible? You've never provided any verses that support that U-turn doctrine.