This thread is particularly for the ongoing discussion between me and @seed_time_harvest bcs of his request.
But anyone is welcome to post here if they want to have a say.
But anyone is welcome to post here if they want to have a say.
Faith Without Works is Dead (continuation)
- Thread starter pumpkinbread1567
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We were having this discussion/debate In the miscellaneous forum called strictly Miscellaneou.I hope the other people that responded to this subject In that thread from the miscellaneous forum have something to add here In the BDF.I answering to the poll question
Is faith without works dead “ from man’s perspective or GODs perspective?
I say this Is from mans perspective.
GOD gives everyone the ability to make a choice so then man can choose GOD by repenting(turning)and GOD will give them faith.
In
James 2:16-19
King James Version
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
+++
I believe this Is talking from a mans perspective because we know that GOD does not need to see works.
Did the thief on the cross do any works before GOD accepted his heart felt words ,was his belief In JESUS dead to GOD without works?
This Is why I believe that faith without works Is NOT dead to GOD because GOD looks at the heart but man looks at outward appearances.Faith without works IS dead to men though.
Sidenote:I do believe that works will be done by man that other men can see but GOD sees the heart and doesn’t have to see physical works to know that the person Is true.
Previously, I messaged to member seed_time_harvest
seed_time_harvest said:
Since GOD looks at the heart then you agree that faith Without works Is not dead to GOD.
Me:
I think it depends. If a tree will produce good fruit, God foresees it, he knew every soul before creation, but it's up to the tree to fulfill the duty assigned. For that, the saying in James (Jacob) 2:22 which says,
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
is true. God is in the future, but you, on the other hand, is in the present to fulfill the duty assigned. If God sees that one will fulfill his/her own assignment, that time is when he/she has proven his/her faith.
Was your faith perfect before repentance? No. It is easy to believe God who is merciful and forgives all sins through the crucifixion, and it takes no faith bcs it is a good thing. But...
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
IMO faith In the old testament was demonstrated by works of course GOD In CHRIST looked at the heart so even If other men could not see If another man was being true,GOD knew and thats why HE said your faith has saved you.
seed_time_harvest said:
Since GOD looks at the heart then you agree that faith Without works Is not dead to GOD.
Me:
I think it depends. If a tree will produce good fruit, God foresees it, he knew every soul before creation, but it's up to the tree to fulfill the duty assigned. For that, the saying in James (Jacob) 2:22 which says,
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
is true. God is in the future, but you, on the other hand, is in the present to fulfill the duty assigned. If God sees that one will fulfill his/her own assignment, that time is when he/she has proven his/her faith.
Was your faith perfect before repentance? No. It is easy to believe God who is merciful and forgives all sins through the crucifixion, and it takes no faith bcs it is a good thing. But...
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
IMO faith In the old testament was demonstrated by works of course GOD In CHRIST looked at the heart so even If other men could not see If another man was being true,GOD knew and thats why HE said your faith has saved you.
Who the Author is writing to is key .
1¶James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Well I see a lot of energy expended on this subject. Lets consider that the caterpillar crawls on tree limbs and eats leaves. When the caterpillar becomes a butterfly he no longer eats leaves. He may sit on the limbs of trees but he is changed so he now flies and does not crawl around looking for food.
A person who is born again is also changed into a new creature. All things become new and the old things are passed away. This is evident to both the person and those around him. It is a work done by God as it pleases Him. We call it sanctification.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
A person who is born again is also changed into a new creature. All things become new and the old things are passed away. This is evident to both the person and those around him. It is a work done by God as it pleases Him. We call it sanctification.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Could it be that the audience has to
What do you mean by ' from God's perspective?
I answering to the poll question
Is faith without works dead “ from man’s perspective or GODs perspective?
I say this Is from mans perspective.
GOD gives everyone the ability to make a choice so then man can choose GOD by repenting(turning)and GOD will give them faith.
In
James 2:16-19
King James Version
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
+++
I believe this Is talking from a mans perspective because we know that GOD does not need to see works.
Did the thief on the cross do any works before GOD accepted his heart felt words ,was his belief In JESUS dead to GOD without works?
This Is why I believe that faith without works Is NOT dead to GOD because GOD looks at the heart but man looks at outward appearances.Faith without works IS dead to men though.
Sidenote:I do believe that works will be done by man that other men can see but GOD sees the heart and doesn’t have to see physical works to know that the person Is true.
11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2 )
14¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18¶Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25¶Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26¶For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
(cf. Gen. 22; Josh. 2 )
14¶What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18¶Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25¶Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26¶For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
The answer is found in Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
More BALONEY from someone who should be learning rather than trying to teach.
This is usually a good exercise in how the bible suddenly becomes hard to read and were not able to believe what it says .
I'm going to request for your feedback on this question concerning the thief:
How much faith does it take for you to say "I believe God (I have faith in God)", and "save me, Lord?"
To SAY the words I believe In GOD can be said but no one can come to GOD and not be true.
That is true to me. To confess belief in words takes no faith for me. It should be the same for the thief. So you have in English the saying "Easier said than done."
Matthew 15:7-8
7You hypocrites! Isaiah prophesied correctly about you:
Isaiah 29:13 actually says
13Therefore the Lord said: “These people draw near to Me with their mouths and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me. Their worship of Me is but rules taught by men.
In order to COME to God, you have to FOLLOW Christ, yes? What did Jesus say about that?
Mark 10:20-21
20“Teacher,” he replied, “all these I have kept from my youth.”
21Jesus looked at him, loved him, and said to him, “There is one thing you lack: Go, sell everything you own and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow Me.f”
( f BYZ and TR Then come, take up the cross, and follow Me. ) (Also Mark 8:34)
Isn't "give to the poor" work in your eyes?
Noah would have been dead if he thought faith means never having to obey what God told us will save us
Noah was saved by faith because he believed Gods warning about the coming flood
the building of the ark was the result of his belief. If he told God “ sure I believe the flood is coming but I’m not going to build and ark I have faith “
Noah’s faith would have been pointless and empty it would have been only lip service belief results in what we do
the reason we have trouble is we try to believe everything but what he said about things but faith has to be based on what God said . That has to be what we believe so then what does faith do with a statement like this ?
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
Mark 16:15-16
faith hears and believes that and the reaction is to act in that belief that’s faith . What God said is certain and immutable .
but if we hear that and say “ I believe but baptism isn’t a part of anything I’m already saved by my faith “ that’s because we don’t believe what he said
We have most likely believed a distortion explaining why Jesus words aren’t the right ones to believe regarding salvation
faith brings us everything we need if we base it on what Jesus said and believe . But the thing is he clearly teaches us about repentance and obedience actually doing good works because we are zealous to do them . Not trying to earn anything but because we believe the glory of the gospels promises
Grace doesn’t excuse good works it teaches us repentance and a zealousness for good works towards others out of love and gratitude of the heart faith is what brings Gods power to
Make us able when we aren’t
Noah would have perished of God hadn’t warned him and told him to build the ark , and if he hadn’t believed and obeyed also he would have died
either way from Noah’s view of Gods Noah believed what Hod told him , so he did what God said to do and be saved
just like Jesus told all of us faith believes him
and Grace works as a teacher of repentance and good works even as many claim it erases everything else it doesn’t
“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
Titus 2:11-14
he didn’t give his life so we could remain on sin , but so we could change our ways and be saved