What are Calvinism and Arminianism?

[FireOnTheAltar]

Typically, the debate is framed as "Once Saved Always Saved" i.e. Perseverance of the Saints i.e. Eternal Security on the Calvinist side, and Conditional Security on the Arminian side. This is a good example of how each position is only partially correct, and therefore neither is correct, since scripture teaches both sides of the issue.

There are those who are eternally secure and will never fall away. These are Christ's sheep, the elect. However, there are also those who believe for a while and later fall away (Luke 8:13). Those who don't fall away, who endure to the end (Matthew 24:13), were known to God from before they were even born (Romans 9:11). God knows their salvation is eternally secure, and they will be saved.

Scripture doesn't tell us how to distinguish between the two. After all, we can't see the future, so we don't know what someone might or might not do. But, God can, and He does know. That's why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (i.e. to persevere), since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you want security in your salvation, simply don't turn away.

So to sum it up, there is eternal security, but God is the one who knows, not us. Enter by the narrow gate.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Scripture doesn't tell us how to distinguish between the two. After all, we can't see the future, so we don't know what someone might or might not do. But, God can, and He does know. That's why we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (i.e. to persevere), since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. If you want security in your salvation, simply don't turn away.

.

BTW - I tend to agree with you. While I lean toward Arminianism simply because people do choose to walk away, it's really not my place to say whether or not they were actually saved. Only God knows. However, I don't believe that one can walk away and still be saved.

I believe that the truth lies somewhere in between which we may never truly know this side of eternity seeing as salvation is so personal.

Anyways I completely agree with your paragraph quoted above. Often times I tell people that if there's one thing I know for certain, it's that God will never turn his back on you just asd long as you never turn your back on him.

 

[livingbygrace]

It appears that you have mistaken me with LBG. Not once have I ever insinuated that Romans 7 refers to Paul before conversion. quote]

Hi FOTA

In Rom 7 Paul says he is

a slave to sin

A prisoner of sin

Paul had the desire to do good but could not carry it out

He does not do the good he wants to do but continuously does the evil he does not want to do

In the KJV it says he is carnal, sold under sin.

Paul wrote Romans I believe(please correct me if I am wrong) late in his life

From your comments I would have doubted that you would have believed that for the majority of Paul's Christian life the above would have applied to him, unless you have a view on this that I have not read

 

[Red33]

Actually Zone, you & I both know that if both Calvin & Arminius were here Red33 would be immediately declared and dismissed as an Antinomian. Neither believed that a person could be free from sin while still a slave to sin and that sanctification was indeed the fruit (evidence) of one's salvation rather than optional as Red boasts. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Calvin would want to hold a tribunal for Red with a stake and a pile of split wood on hand for the festivities afterward.

You're buddy Paul Washer as well as John McArthur & John Piper have preached multiple sermons against Red's views. It's all over youtube. That's why I find it hilarious that Red would even interject in this convo.

Every single believer, including Paul Washer and the rest of them, will come to a place in their life if they haven't already, maybe even more than one, where they will have some stronghold of sin that they will not get victory over no matter how much they repent and no matter how sincere they may be in their repentance. They can repent in sack cloth and ashes and that besetting sin just won't go away. They won't be able to preach their way out of it, they won't be able to get counseling from others that will help it, prayer won't touch it and God won't give them victory over it either. They will only be wasting their time trying to get victory and overcome that besetting sin that is in their flesh.

Every time they get in the pulpit to preach against sin God will remind them of that besetting sin in their life. That sin will put all their doctrine and every message that they have ever preached about repentance right in its place. Their own personal holiness and strong volition won't get them victory no matter how disciplined they are to not live in the flesh. They can pray to the Spirit but their will be no help there either. That sin has the potential to drive them mad until they learn just one personal thing from God, 'my grace is sufficient for you and my strength is made perfect in the weakness of your flesh that you keep failing in through sin'(2Cor 2:9). We know the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Mt 26:41) but why would God allow this sin to remain in our life? We hate it, we despise it and we don't want it in our life and all we get from God is, 'my grace is sufficient for you'.

God leaves that one area of besetting sin that we have to keep laying aside (Heb 12:1) so that we have to depend on Him and His grace and nothing else. We may fail, but we must receive and depend on grace. David knew it and God showed him that mercy and goodness (grace) would follow him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have those same sure mercies of David in (Acts 13:34) and that same goodness (Rom 15:14).

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

It appears that you have mistaken me with LBG. Not once have I ever insinuated that Romans 7 refers to Paul before conversion. quote]

Hi FOTA

In Rom 7 Paul says he is

a slave to sin

A prisoner of sin

Paul had the desire to do good but could not carry it out

He does not do the good he wants to do but continuously does the evil he does not want to do

In the KJV it says he is carnal, sold under sin.

Paul wrote Romans I believe(please correct me if I am wrong) late in his life

From your comments I would have doubted that you would have believed that for the majority of Paul's Christian life the above would have applied to him, unless you have a view on this that I have not read

I believe that, while man can do no good in and of himself, all things are possible through Christ Jesus who strengthens him. In another words, Walking in the Spirit as described in Romans 8 completely overides the lusts of the flesh in Romans 7, that is if the believer willfully chooses to Abide in Christ rather than pursue their own selfish desires.

LBG, please accept my appologies. By no means what so ever would I ever intentionally disrespect you. I recall Zone accusing you of believing that Romans 7 referred to Paul in an unconverted state, which is the only reason why I brought your name up. Honestly I don't recall if what your actual position is on the subject.

 

[livingbygrace]

I believe that, while man can do no good in and of himself, all things are possible through Christ Jesus who strengthens him. In another words, Walking in the Spirit as described in Romans 8 completely overides the lusts of the flesh in Romans 7, that is if the believer willfully chooses to Abide in Christ rather than pursue their own selfish desires.

LBG, please accept my appologies. By no means what so ever would I ever intentionally disrespect you. I recall Zone accusing you of believing that Romans 7 referred to Paul in an unconverted state, which is the only reason why I brought your name up. Honestly I don't recall if what your actual position is on the subject.

There is no need to apologise. I know you would not be disrespectful, I just wondered what your position was on this, thank you for explaining.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Every single believer, including Paul Washer and the rest of them, will come to a place in their life if they haven't already, maybe even more than one, where they will have some stronghold of sin that they will not get victory over no matter how much they repent and no matter how sincere they may be in their repentance. They can repent in sack cloth and ashes and that besetting sin just won't go away. They won't be able to preach their way out of it, they won't be able to get counseling from others that will help it, prayer won't touch it and God won't give them victory over it either. They will only be wasting their time trying to get victory and overcome that besetting sin that is in their flesh.

Every time they get in the pulpit to preach against sin God will remind them of that besetting sin in their life. That sin will put all their doctrine and every message that they have ever preached about repentance right in its place. Their own personal holiness and strong volition won't get them victory no matter how disciplined they are to not live in the flesh. They can pray to the Spirit but their will be no help there either. That sin has the potential to drive them mad until they learn just one personal thing from God, 'my grace is sufficient for you and my strength is made perfect in the weakness of your flesh that you keep failing in through sin'(2Cor 2:9). We know the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak (Mt 26:41) but why would God allow this sin to remain in our life? We hate it, we despise it and we don't want it in our life and all we get from God is, 'my grace is sufficient for you'.

God leaves that one area of besetting sin that we have to keep laying aside (Heb 12:1) so that we have to depend on Him and His grace and nothing else. We may fail, but we must receive and depend on grace. David knew it and God showed him that mercy and goodness (grace) would follow him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have those same sure mercies of David in (Acts 13:34) and that same goodness (Rom 15:14).

*shaking head*

What part od sanctification do you not understand? It's not so much about dying to individual sin as it is dying to our entire sense of self one sin at a time. The entire process can be explainmed in one simple statement: "Father, not my will but THY will be done." This is what it means to truly be Christlike.

The problem here is that you are thinking too small. Unfortunately all most people care about iis their own salvation. However, sanctification is the process inwhich God prepares us to fullfill the Great Commission. We are useless to God if we refuse to submit to the Holy Spirit. Sin grieves the Holy Spirit. We can witness all we want but unless we have the annointing of the Holy Spirit, it will be pointless if done in the flesh.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

EThat sin has the potential to drive them mad until they learn just one personal thing from God, 'my grace is sufficient for you and my strength is made perfect in the weakness of your flesh that you keep failing in through sin'(2Cor 2:9).

God leaves that one area of besetting sin that we have to keep laying aside (Heb 12:1) so that we have to depend on Him and His grace and nothing else. We may fail, but we must receive and depend on grace. David knew it and God showed him that mercy and goodness (grace) would follow him all the days of his life (Ps 23:6) and we have those same sure mercies of David in (Acts 13:34) and that same goodness (Rom 15:14).

What bible are you using? I've looked up the scriptures that you are referencing IN CONTEXT and they have absolutely nothing to do with how you are using them in your arguement. Especially the reference to 2 Cor 12:9 & Heb 12:1.

Don't tell me that you're another Jack Van Impe, rambling off reference after reference trying to look smart when in the truth the scripture only fits the scenerio according to your own warped perspective. Never pull scripture out of context!

 

[Red33]

*shaking head*

What part od sanctification do you not understand? It's not so much about dying to individual sin as it is dying to our entire sense of self one sin at a time. The entire process can be explainmed in one simple statement: "Father, not my will but THY will be done." This is what it means to truly be Christlike.

The problem here is that you are thinking too small. Unfortunately all most people care about iis their own salvation. However, sanctification is the process inwhich God prepares us to fullfill the Great Commission. We are useless to God if we refuse to submit to the Holy Spirit. Sin grieves the Holy Spirit. We can witness all we want but unless we have the annointing of the Holy Spirit, it will be pointless if done in the flesh.

We are qualified to fulfill the great commission the very day that we are saved by grace through faith, just ask the Samaritan woman, who had (5) wives and was living with another, who met Jesus at Jacob's well in (Jn 4). The cross that paid for our sins, so that we could believe and be saved, is the same cross we take up and follow Christ with. Through that cross we are dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through grace. We are sanctified by the truth the very moment our heart believes by faith unto the righteousness of God that is imputed unto us by grace without any works whatsoever and we are totally justified and made perfect in our new position in Christ. Old things are passed away and all things have become new.

In order for that to happen God has to reach down with His hand of mercy into the darkness and death of our trespasses and sins and give us grace in that state. Through that grace we were translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. All that took place in an instant and set us apart from the world and unto Himself. I like that sanctification and there not a sin that I could commit that would change any of it.

It is only foolishness in their heart that believes that a sinner saved by grace could forfeit their salvation and forfeit all that God has done to the believer making him a new creature in Christ through grace. The next time you here someone trying to convince you or someone else that they can lose or forfeit their salvation, tell them that that they do not know the Lord or his grace and then walk away and don't look back. Anyone that thinks that salvation can be lost or forfeited is thinking like a heathen and a fool that says there is no God.

 

[Red33]

BTW - Jack Van Impe probably leads more souls to Christ in a month of broadcasts then you will see in a lifetime.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

We are qualified to fulfill the great commission the very day that we are saved by grace through faith, just ask the Samaritan woman, who had (5) wives and was living with another, who met Jesus at Jacob's well in (Jn 4). The cross that paid for our sins, so that we could believe and be saved, is the same cross we take up and follow Christ with. Through that cross we are dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God through grace. We are sanctified by the truth the very moment our heart believes by faith unto the righteousness of God that is imputed unto us by grace without any works whatsoever and we are totally justified and made perfect in our new position in Christ. Old things are passed away and all things have become new.

In order for that to happen God has to reach down with His hand of mercy into the darkness and death of our trespasses and sins and give us grace in that state. Through that grace we were translated from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's dear Son. All that took place in an instant and set us apart from the world and unto Himself. I like that sanctification and there not a sin that I could commit that would change any of it.

It is only foolishness in their heart that believes that a sinner saved by grace could forfeit their salvation and forfeit all that God has done to the believer making him a new creature in Christ through grace. The next time you here someone trying to convince you or someone else that they can lose or forfeit their salvation, tell them that that they do not know the Lord or his grace and then walk away and don't look back. Anyone that thinks that salvation can be lost or forfeited is thinking like a heathen and a fool that says there is no God.

Do you ever read any other posts but those who respond directly to you? If you had then you would know already how I view the situation.

The simple truth is that people do iondeed abandon the faith. This is a fact that not one of us can deny. Now, whether these people forfiet their salvation or they were never saved in the first place, only God truly knows however, one thing is absolutely certain; according to scripture a person who willingly turns their back toward God and embraces an indulgant lifestyle filled with sin and selfishness is not saved PERIOD.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

BTW - Jack Van Impe probably leads more souls to Christ in a month of broadcasts then you will see in a lifetime.

I know for a fact that if you were to read the very articles whose headlines Jack Van Impe uses to push his agenda, you will find him to be both a fraud and a fear-monger.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

btw - Red seeing as you are neither a Calvinist or Arminian, you have nothing to offer in this discussion therefore you are going back on the ignore list.

 

[Red33]

I know for a fact that if you were to read the very articles whose headlines Jack Van Impe uses to push his agenda, you will find him to be both a fraud and a fear-monger.

They all are in the eyes of your understanding, what's new. There are plenty of guys out there like you that judge others to esteem themselves. They like to exalt themselves, but those who exalt themselves shall be brought low, with no exceptions.

This time keep me on your ignore list.

 

[ChirstNotCalvin]

I have asked a very pointed question which paraphrased is "Do you Calvinists believe that God is the author of sin"

You Calvinists go all around the houses answering a different question except that one. I firmly believe you do believe that God is the author of sin but you are not brave enough to say so. Unlike John Calvin you have not really got the courage of your convictions because John Calvin unequivocally answered 'yes - God is the author of every ones sins. Both the saved and the reprobate'.

Prove it you say - OK

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 4"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 6God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death.

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision..”Did God even force Adam and Eve to sin. No ? Well Calvin says yes, God did.

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7God not only foresaw the fall off the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity: but also at his own pleasure arranged it.

A W Pink - A hardline Calvanist concurs - Yes God is the Author of every ones sin.
Ref The Sovereignty of God pp 83-84

"we assuredly gather it was His everlasting determination so to do; and consequently that He reprobated some from before the foundation of the world"

A W Pink ‘From The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation Chapter 5
If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire.

No I am not waving the flag for arminianism.

What I am saying is that Calvanist are not quite as honest with themselves or any body else. If I am wrong then answer the question as directly and as boldly as Calvin and Pink to name but two. The problem it leaves me though is there is a huge amount of scripture that suggest differently.

I have no idea how to reconcile that. I believe it needs to be done if only to stop the onward rise of Islam.


It needs exposing before the real rapture. Or for those who do not believe in the rapture then Christ's return, or before you die in the wrong condition - whatever.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

I have asked a very pointed question which paraphrased is "Do you Calvinists believe that God is the author of sin"

You Calvinists go all around the houses answering a different question except that one. I firmly believe you do believe that God is the author of sin but you are not brave enough to say so. Unlike John Calvin you have not really got the courage of your convictions because John Calvin unequivocally answered 'yes - God is the author of every ones sins. Both the saved and the reprobate'.

Prove it you say - OK

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 4"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 6God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death.

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7"Again I ask: whence does it happen that Adam's fall irremediably involved so many peoples, together with their infant offspring, in eternal death unless because it so pleased God? ... The decree is dreadful indeed, I confess. Yet no one can deny that God foreknew what end man was to have before he created him, and consequently foreknew because he so ordained by his decree." "And it ought not to seem absurd for me to say that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his descendants, but also meted it out in accordance with his own decision..”Did God even force Adam and Eve to sin. No ? Well Calvin says yes, God did.

Book 3, Ch 23, Section 7God not only foresaw the fall off the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity: but also at his own pleasure arranged it.

A W Pink - A hardline Calvanist concurs - Yes God is the Author of every ones sin.
Ref The Sovereignty of God pp 83-84

"we assuredly gather it was His everlasting determination so to do; and consequently that He reprobated some from before the foundation of the world"

A W Pink ‘From The Sovereignty of God in Reprobation Chapter 5
If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire.

No I am not waving the flag for arminianism.

What I am saying is that Calvanist are not quite as honest with themselves or any body else. If I am wrong then answer the question as directly and as boldly as Calvin and Pink to name but two. The problem it leaves me though is there is a huge amount of scripture that suggest differently.

I have no idea how to reconcile that. I believe it needs to be done if only to stop the onward rise of Islam.


It needs exposing before the real rapture. Or for those who do not believe in the rapture then Christ's return, or before you die in the wrong condition - whatever.

God is indeed the cause of sin. Although it is what the Bible teaches, most deny it because it clashes with their own understanding (Proverbs 3:5) of who they think God should be (Isaiah 55:8-9; Romans 11:33). Here's one example, among many.

17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)

God made them stray from His ways. It's not a matter of Calvinism or Arminianism (both of which are false); it's just what the Bible says.

 

[xXxSharonxXx]

Thank you everyone, I think I get it now. Hahaha I like the "I chose that shirt, that shirt chose me" thing. Never thought of it that way. But yeah, thank you all for your explanations, they were definitely helpful.

 

[Scotth1960]

I'm not making this because I saw a thread about it, it's because I know a few people who proclaim they are Calvinists, but some say they believe Arminianism. However you spell/say that. I have looked this up in the past, but can't really seem to find a clear definition of the two. They're just really complicated. Could someone please explain what these people believe in a simpler form? One that a 15 year old would understand

What are Calvinism and Arminianism? Two heresies we need to avoid!