Your Input: Baptism vs Being Filled

BLC · May 6, 2009

ILLUSTRATION: Take (2) glasses and fill one with water, and then take (2) paper towels and crunch them both up. Immerse one of the paper towels in the glass full of water and observe. Then take the other paper towel and put it in the empty glass. Fill the empty glass and observe. When you compare the condition of the towel in each glass they are the same. One towel was immersed (or baptised) in water and the other was filled with water. The conclusion suggest that the baptism and filling are the same.

When we believed upon Christ we recieved the Holy Spirit, and at that moment we were filled and baptized with the Holy Spirit and placed in Christ together as members of one another and of His body, flesh and bones (Rom 12:4, Eph 5:30). That's why the scriptures teach that there is 'one baptism', 'one Spirit' and 'one body' (Eph 4:4,5). That happens at salvation when we were all baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27). Then we get into (1Cor 12 & 13). Notice (1Cor 12:13);

'For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit'.

There is only one baptism of the Holy Spirit that we are filled with at salvation and we are to continue in that filling (Eph 5:18). Then comes the gifts, administrations and operations that are given and divided by the same Spirit to every man as he wills to profit all members together (1Cor 12:4-13).

ThereIsHope · May 6, 2009

Thank you, BLC, for this post. I have been struggling with this issue on my own and reading books about being filled with Spirit through Holy Spirit Baptism. ( I am now attending a First Assembly Church - they are Pentecostal.)

I believe as I have been instructed my entire life and by studying Scripture for myself that when we receive Christ we then receive the HS. It has been very hard to read these books and line them up with Scripture as they take so much out of context.

Anyway this is confirmation to me that I am on the right track.

GOD bless you, Hope

BLC · May 6, 2009

ThereIsHope said:

Thank you, BLC, for this post. I have been struggling with this issue on my own and reading books about being filled with Spirit through Holy Spirit Baptism. ( I am now attending a First Assembly Church - they are Pentecostal.)

I believe as I have been instructed my entire life and by studying Scripture for myself that when we receive Christ we then receive the HS. It has been very hard to read these books and line them up with Scripture as they take so much out of context.

Anyway this is confirmation to me that I am on the right track.

GOD bless you, Hope

I am glad that it has helped and God bless you also. BLC

KingdomGeneration · May 6, 2009

ThereIsHope said:

A lot of pentecostals like to use speaking in tongues as the sole evidence of one being filled with the Holy Spirit. However, scripture states that the true evidence is to be endued with power from on high. Speaking in tongues is but one of many gifts of the Holy Spirit, prophecy is another. Scripture also states that not all will speak in tongues or prophecy.

A lot of people who believe that the gifts are no longer relevant for today like to use the flawed doctrine of pentecostals as a means to create confusion. However, do not be fooled. Absolutely no where in the bible will you find a piece of scripture that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as tongues or prophecy, have ceased.

eric51 · May 6, 2009

BLC said:

ILLUSTRATION: Take (2) glasses and fill one with water, and then take (2) paper towels and crunch them both up. Immerse one of the paper towels in the glass full of water and observe. Then take the other paper towel and put it in the empty glass. Fill the empty glass and observe. When you compare the condition of the towel in each glass they are the same. One towel was immersed (or baptised) in water and the other was filled with water. The conclusion suggest that the baptism and filling are the same.

When we believed upon Christ we recieved the Holy Spirit, and at that moment we were filled and baptized with the Holy Spirit and placed in Christ together as members of one another and of His body, flesh and bones (Rom 12:4, Eph 5:30). That's why the scriptures teach that there is 'one baptism', 'one Spirit' and 'one body' (Eph 4:4,5). That happens at salvation when we were all baptized into Christ (Gal 3:27). Then we get into (1Cor 12 & 13). Notice (1Cor 12:13);
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Your analogy is lacking. On one hand, baptism is a Sacrament of Grace, a Spiritual phenomenon, on the other hand, a towel is a physical object.

Moreover, salvation means eternal security. God may judge one saved. If so, that means that person is going to heaven. Judgement, Christianity teaches us, has taught us for 2000 years is based on how one applies Truth to one's life. Judgment comes after temporal death--NOT BEFORE.

One lives. One temporally dies. One is resurrected and then JUDGED. That is the journey of salvation.

May GOD be with You AlwaYS

MahogonySnail · May 7, 2009

Scripture shows that whenever a person was filled with the Spirit, a miraculous thing occurred. either they spoke in tongues, prophesied, had a vision, rebuked a devil. Read your bible, particularly the book of Acts, you'll notice that. I used to think I was filled with the Spirit too before I was actually filled with the Spirit and spoke in tongues. Just believing you are filled doesn't mean you are. There's lots of people who aren't pentecostal they just simply don't have a clue unless they experience it for themselves. They think they are filled with the Spirit but their face looks like a dried prune, all grumpy and lacking love, joy, peace, which are the fruits of the Spirit. Get filled with the Spirit, ask for the gift of the Spirit, and your spiritual life will be take up an extra notch, like turbo charged. It turned the timid apostles into powerful and bold preachers of the Word.

MahogonySnail · May 7, 2009

When pentecostals use the term baptised in the Spirit they mean immersed in the Spirit which is the literal meaning of the word for baptism, and this is equivalent to being filled.

Note that every christian that Paul encountered were pentecostals, Paul laid hands on each of them.

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
Acts 19:1-7

If Christians don't have the baptism of the Spirit they are lacking something which God wants them to have. They are lacking the power of God and if you lack the power of God you are like a shiny brand new BMW without any gas in the tank. You've been cleansed from sin, regenerated by the Spirit, baptised into Christ. But without the fuel in the tank you aren't going anywhere and you aren't good for much except sitting in the garage and looking pretty. That's why I want Spirit filled and Spirit baptised believers to pray for me not skeptics, not doubters, not heresy hunters, not prune faced religious men with all their fancy scriptural arguments, but Spirit filled christians.

MahogonySnail · May 7, 2009

So the easy test from the Word according to the book of Acts that I apply to people who say "I am baptised in the Spirit", I ask them, have you spoken in tongues? or, have you prophesied? or have you glorified God? or have you proclaimed the Gospel boldly and with power? If they say no, the only conclusion I can find is that they aren't baptised in the Spirit.

http://www.gracevalley.org/sermon_trans/1999/Baptism_in_Holy_Spirit_2.html
Why do you think much of the church is so weak and pathetic today? Because it has rejected the infinite personal God revealed in the Scriptures. First, the church fell under the influence of liberal theologians who rejected not only the authority of the Scripture but also God himself, the one who created the universe out of nothing. Then the church began to judge the Scriptures on the basis of fallen human reason, otherwise known as higher criticism or rationalism. Under the influence of such philosophies, the church rejected miracles.

When these things began to happen, especially in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, evangelicals within the church fought for an infinite, personal God and defended the miracles of the Scriptures against the philosophies of liberalism. But then the evangelicals went to the other extreme and began to deny the existence of miracles today. In the ivory towers of some seminaries, theologians began to churn out books, telling us that we cannot experience the baptism in the Holy Spirit the way we read about in the book of Acts. These evangelical theologians said that both the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit were for another time, not for now. They said these things were necessary until the canon of Scriptures was complete, but now we do not need to experience baptism in the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

The only problem with the assertion that baptism in the Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit are not for today is that it came from men’s heads, not from the Bible. These theologians imported their ideas into the Bible, rather than exegeting them from the Bible, even though we are not told anywhere in the Bible that these things have ceased. Thus, not only the liberal church but also the evangelical church has contributed to the miserable condition of the church today. Experimentally limited theologians tell experimentally limited people how to experience God while restricting that experience to stay within the confines of their own limited experiences. This is the blind leading the blind.

Thaddaeus · May 7, 2009

BLC said:

Well if this is true then the scriptures must be wrong for

Ac 19:1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,Ac 19:2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.Ac 19:3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.Ac 19:4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.Ac 19:5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.Ac 19:6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Here we have believers but they had not received the Holy Ghost yet , now I am not promoting the Doctrine of tongues as the evidence of being saved, for it clearly says that they prophesied also so why did we just say that tongues were the evidence , I don't know go ask someone who preachers that. But it is clear here that these believers didn't know they had the Holy Ghost , but this would give us evidence that the Spirit Baptism was to replace the water baptism. I believe there is a difference in receiving the Holy Spirt and being Filled, receiving the Holy Spirit when we get saved is Different from being filled, Being filled Is when the Holy Spirit empowers us to to something to edify the Church of to edify God, let mw showed you from srciptures why this has to be the difference, I don't think anyone would disagree that the Holy Spirit comes and dwell with us when we are saved, But I hope that everyone would also agree that Jesus didn't need to be saved, But he was filled with The Holy Ghost at times

Lu 4:1And Jesus being full of the HOLY GHOST returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,
and then there was John the Baptist, if being filled with the Holy Ghost is getting saved then we need to start up baby baptism:

Lu 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

pickles · May 7, 2009

My expeariance with the holy spirit has been an ongoing one. I debated the belief that the gifts of the spirit had passed with one of my former pastors often. He taught that the gifts were meant only for the apostles and had passed. I disagreed. My interpatation of that scripture was that we all recieved the gifts of the spirit. The referance to the passing simply ment to me that when young in my faith I needed such gifts , like a child learning to cook needed all the tools,measuring cups , spoons, and cook book. But as that child matured and became proficient and skilled they no longer needed these tools to accomplish the task. But when teaching or showing another the gifts would be needed again or if atempting a new task. I realize this is a rather basic comparison but as I have walked in faith and come to love our Lord Jesus more each day I find myself becoming less dependant on the physical and more one with his spirit. The gifts of his spirit are always present and serve when needed but it seems as though I am less in body and more one with his spirit. All through my life the gifts have come, different gifts for the need each time. What I have learned most through our lord Jesus, then through God our Father and his holy spirit is that there are no limits, and no end to his power, his spirit or his love. God bless, pickles

BLC · May 7, 2009

The evidence of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and not some special endowment. We live and walk in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16). When Jesus appeared to the disciples gathered together in (John 20) and breathed upon them the Holy Spirit, nothing happened. Eight days later He shows himself again to convince Thomas and nothing happened. Then he shows up at the Sea of Tiberias in (John 21) and (7) of the disciples were not preaching the gospel or revealing some great power they had received from the Holy Spirit, but were fishing. Jesus came to them to brake bread and fellowship with them.

The same thing happened at Pentecost in (Acts 2). A multitude of people from every nation under heaven heard of the good works of God in their own tongue/language. Then Peter gets up and speaks to them in his own language with (3000) souls gladly receiving his words, were baptized and received the Holy Spirit. I don't see that any of them prophesied or spoke in tongues as a result of being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit. They had no special endowment. If there was a special endowment to be given, you would think that it would have been an ideal time to take place, when so many had gathered from all over the world. The result and fruit of this event at Pentecost, was that many heard the message of the gospel of Christ, were saved, baptized and received the indwelling Holy Spirit and I quote the following from Acts 2:42-47;

'And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved'.

That is the evidence and fruit of the Holy Spirit.

BLC · May 7, 2009

Thaddaeus,

Quote: 'Being filled Is when the Holy Spirit empowers us to to something to edify the Church of to edify God'

Eph 5:18 says, ...'but be filled with the Holy Spirit'. We are the ones that are to be filled and the verb, 'be filled' is continuous action. We are to continually be filled with the Holy Spirit, not just once in awhile when God empowers us, but continually all the time. This mandate is given to every believer.

If recieving or being baptized is different, then explain how the believer can be continually filled with the Holy Spirit?

Quote: 'And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied' (Acts 19:6).

The preposition 'on' is epi, and it refers to a position of being; upon, on, over or against. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit coming within or into them. The tongues and prophesies come from the 'on resting' and not the 'indwelling' of the Holy Spirit. Look at (Num 11:25,26, 1Sam 10:10, 19:20-23, Acts 2:3).

Baruch · May 7, 2009

BLC said:

Would that not suggest that those that need a continual filling, are not a new creature in Christ? Would it not suggest that they are old wineskin in being unable to hold the new wine? Matthew 9:17

Just how does this not lead someone to preach another spirit to receive? 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Seems to me that there is a certain past tense to 1 Corinthians 12:13 that is being ignored in regards to preaching a continual filling.

And if you are going to use Ephesians 5:18, then use it in context.

It did not say "be filled with the Spirit" all by itself. That is only part of the exhortation.

Be filled with the Spirit is the call to remain filled as opposing being drunk with wine wherein there is excess. The fact that Paul went to the trouble of pointing out that there is excess in wine, goes to show how it is not so with the Holy Spirit. You either have Him or you don't. That is why the Holy Spirit is given without measure.

We are to be witnesses of Jesus Christ, but as it is, believers are witnessessing and serving something else in His name. That "one baptism" doesn't sound like it did the job of having us filled and thus sealed and thus preserved if you believe there is a continual filling on our part to undertake, now does it? But of course, I believe Jesus has done it all at our salvation so we can rest in Him. If there is more of God we have to seek after... then where is the rest for coming to and believing in Jesus? I call this labouring in unbelief and climbing up another way in relating to God the Father other than through the Son.

Now how many new age channellers are doing the same thing? And how can God save any of them as a witness of what He has done if the rudiment of the world is also found in Christianity?

Baruch · May 7, 2009

Thaddaeus said:

Pastor Keith,

Please reread Acts 19 again. They were not believers of Jesus Christ. That is why they did not know of the Holy Ghost. That is also why Paul had asked of what baptism they were under, and they had answered: John the Baptist's. Then Paul went on to tell them about Jesus and only then were they baptised in Jesus' name and then they had received the Holy Ghost. Certain disciples meant disciples not of Paul's following as in after Jesus Christ.

As far as Luke 4's account, that is merely stating that when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness, there would not be any doubt that He was not sinning by having wicked thoughts so that the event unfolding was a real time event against Satan. Try reading that passage excluding that phrase and one may see the necessity for including it. In alot of ways, when we walk this valley of death, we can be assured that just because some fiery trail was happening, it did not meant that Satan is more powerful and God blinked. Being led by the Spirit in the wilderness is the same for us in this valley of death, for we shall fear no evil for He is with us always, and thus Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost ( not being filled 'with' the Holy Ghost

this is stating the "meanwhile" which led to the Spirit leading Him in the wilderness.

John the Baptist's ministry was unique, prophesied, but even he still needed Jesus as His Saviour, but to fulfill his role, God had him anointed for the task.

Thaddaeus · May 7, 2009

BLC said:

come on, your chopping up of even the english language is so unbelievable

according to you then when the mutlitude was filled by the two fishes and five loathes that was on going and they never hungered again.

Mt 14:20And they did all eat, and were FILLED: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full.

Mr 7:27But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be FILLED: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

these little children never had to eat again
wow I can be filled by what I eat at Taco bell and never have to eat again, thanks I'm just sitting here thinking of the money I can save .

Lu 6:21Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be FILLED. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.

Come on Pleasseeeee!

BLC · May 7, 2009

Thaddaues'

You are very fragmented when you communicate and your continuity goes all over the place. Sometimes you just don't make good sense and lose people or they misunderstand you. Did you look up the verb 'be filled' in the Greek language to find out the tense/mood and voice of the verb? It is not always the same as it is in english and is more specific. Each preposition is different as well. If you are a teacher you need to know that and get some training in the greek languge for the NT. If you could get the basics down, get some good reference material, you could learn how to exegete verses from the original language with good results. The KJV is a good translation and most reference books accomodate the KJV. Sometimes you will find a few things that might surprise you, but the fundemental truths won't change although your convictions might take on stronger directions. I am not against you in any way and I am encouraged by many of your strong convictions. BLC

Wisdom · May 7, 2009

I do believe that there is a filling of the H.S because the word speaks of it, when we minister in songs, hyms and spiritual songs we build our spirits. When John said, I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthly to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
I could speak from my own expirence, when I got saved I did not know anything about tongue or baptism. The only thing I knew is after repeated the sinners prayer I was on the floor speaking a langue I could not understand. I believe that if you totally trust God & give him your whole heart you would expirence the baptism of the HS with the evidence of speaking in tongues and the first filling of the H.S./walking in the authority of God. I believe that once we commit our self to God/Jesus he would even show us things to come. However, as you seen in the passages, the people never new or hard of the H.S. but once they believed they received. Sometimes we thinkg to much instead of trusting the word of God. If you do not speak in tongues just keep trusting God and following his way. If you ask God for this gift with the right motive, he would give it to you. May God bless and keep you all.

Thaddaeus · May 8, 2009

Baruch said:

Pastor Keith,

Please reread Acts 19 again. They were not believers of Jesus Christ. That is why they did not know of the Holy Ghost. That is also why Paul had asked of what baptism they were under, and they had answered: John the Baptist's. Then Paul went on to tell them about Jesus and only then were they baptised in Jesus' name and then they had received the Holy Ghost. Certain disciples meant disciples not of Paul's following as in after Jesus Christ.

As far as Luke 4's account, that is merely stating that when Jesus was being tempted in the wilderness, there would not be any doubt that He was not sinning by having wicked thoughts so that the event unfolding was a real time event against Satan. Try reading that passage excluding that phrase and one may see the necessity for including it. In alot of ways, when we walk this valley of death, we can be assured that just because some fiery trail was happening, it did not meant that Satan is more powerful and God blinked. Being led by the Spirit in the wilderness is the same for us in this valley of death, for we shall fear no evil for He is with us always, and thus Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost ( not being filled 'with' the Holy Ghost

this is stating the "meanwhile" which led to the Spirit leading Him in the wilderness.

John the Baptist's ministry was unique, prophesied, but even he still needed Jesus as His Saviour, but to fulfill his role, God had him anointed for the task.

John the Baptist preached Jesus Christ,

Mt 3:3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the WILDERNESS, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Thaddaeus · May 8, 2009

BLC said:

I don't need to know greek to understand God's word That why we have the Holy Spirit and the King James Bible the english Bilbe, if we seek wisdom ask God. and also if being filled is on going in one statement then we can't pick and choose what we want it to say when we want it to say what we want it to say that is how we get so many false doctrines.

BLC · May 8, 2009

Thaddaeus,

The NT of the KJV is a translation from the original Greek language. If we had no English translation, you would have to learn Greek in order to understand what the scriptures teach. But we have many translations and the KJV is one of the best but not perfect. The Greek verbs were very difficult for the translators because they often could not find an English verb that would translate from the Greek. As a result they would use the same English verb to translate more than one Greek verb. This meant. In some cases, that the same English verb was used to translate two different verbs in the Greek, because that is all they had. The Amplified translation had clarified many of these verbs to help get the right meaning. Sometimes the Amplified is difficult to understand but it helps with the meaning and action of the verbs.

An English verb denotes some kind of action, with a tense (past/present/future). The verb changes form or something is added to the verb to change the tense, and that can change the structure of the sentence. A Greek verb changes form without adding to the verb and expresses the tense, the voice and the mood of that verb. The translators had to settle for an English verb that did not quite represent the Greek verb. They added some words in (italic) for clarification but kept is mostly free of those additions. They did make mistakes but we can go to the original language and get better definition and correct those mistakes for the most part. I believe that the difficulty of translating the Greek into English has attributed to much of the diverse understanding that believers have in many areas of the scripture. Sometimes it is obvious error and other times it in not. Some have said it is better not to know than to get it wrong, but I say it is better to get it right and to know and not be ignorant. If I have it wrong, I can always be corrected if my heart is after truth, for God does not despise a humble and contrite heart.

Your Input: Baptism vs Being Filled

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