The diciples prayer .

[Journeyman]

I'd rather read and understand the bible in the context given .This way i can try recognise who God is speaking to .

Well brother, in one sense, the coming of the Kingdom of God is fixed, it's set, and in that sense cannot be changed by any prayer,

Because he hath appointed a day Act.17:31

He said to them: the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. Act.1:7

So, we better look at other passages of scripture to explain this seeming contradiction.

 

[Journeyman]

No Israelite would ever think of doing it, for no individual Israelite was a son of God. That is why they prayed, “Our Father.” The nation as a whole was accounted a Son of God (see Exod. 4:22). For an Israelite to call an individual a “son of God” was to equate that person with God Himself (John 10:30–36). That is why Jesus could be called “the Son of God.” He was “God manifested in the flesh.” Because we Christians are in Him individually, we can also be called sons of God—individually (John 1:12). As sons of God, in Jesus Christ, we can have the same intimate relation with the Father that He had (Gal. 4:6).
So with all this said , its not correct teaching to retro fit this prayer onto those in Christ today. As the Catholics do ect . Is God going to be angry if we use it? probably not . But context is everything if we are to apply the bible properly.

You're making a deadly error here. You're teaching Judaism and ignoring what Jesus and the Apostles taught about Israel being God's firstborn.

 

[throughfaith]

You're making a deadly error here. You're teaching Judaism and ignoring what Jesus and the Apostles taught about Israel being God's firstborn.

Yes Israel ( collectively) Not individually.

 

[throughfaith]

Well brother, in one sense, the coming of the Kingdom of God is fixed, it's set, and in that sense cannot be changed by any prayer,

Because he hath appointed a day Act.17:31

He said to them: the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. Act.1:7

So, we better look at other passages of scripture to explain this seeming contradiction.

Let the verse stand as it is . Not addressed to you . What, there s not enough instruction to the Body on prayer ?

 

[throughfaith]

You're making a deadly error here. You're teaching Judaism and ignoring what Jesus and the Apostles taught about Israel being God's firstborn.

Well brother, in one sense, the coming of the Kingdom of God is fixed, it's set, and in that sense cannot be changed by any prayer,

Because he hath appointed a day Act.17:31

He said to them: the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. Act.1:7

So, we better look at other passages of scripture to explain this seeming contradiction.

My overall point is this . We have many teachings and things said in the Gospels ( beyond just this one Prayer i chose . I could have picked any . But just like psalm 23 it has a lot of churchy emotional attachments to it ) Which are not directed at the body . The body ( the church ) comes in Acts not the four gospels . I don't see the problem with all those things Jesus said to Israel being understood in that context. Its critical that we understand God's view of Israel and his course for Israel.

 

[phil36]

My overall point is this . We have many teachings and things said in the Gospels ( beyond just this one Prayer i chose . I could have picked any . But just like psalm 23 it has a lot of churchy emotional attachments to it ) Which are not directed at the body . The body ( the church ) comes in Acts not the four gospels . I don't see the problem with all those things Jesus said to Israel being understood in that context. Its critical that we understand God's view of Israel and his course for Israel.

I don't see a problem with Jesus speaking to all his people through his word.. all of it! Genesis to Revelation.

 

[throughfaith]

I don't see a problem with Jesus speaking to all his people through his word.. all of it! Genesis to Revelation.

It depends what you mean by 'speaking to his people ' ? If i read a verse that is God SPEAKING to Noah , I mark that down . I realise his name is Noah and my name is not . Phew ! I say , God doesn't require me to build an Ark . 😉
But then I read what happened and how its actually what took place the events ect . I see how God dealt with man back then . I also can learn much from this as its referenced later on in the bible. Hebrews11 being one of many places . But at no time did I lose sight of the context of , it being about Noah . And yes I know we look back and see the types ect .
This should be no different as we move through the bible. Asking who is the author writing to , who is speaking and to whom. I know some Christians who think every verse is for them were God is speaking to them in every verse . But they also will see signs on trucks and even licence plates spelling out some message where God is trying to say something. Even a song on the radio lol 😆

 

[throughfaith]

I don't see a problem with Jesus speaking to all his people through his word.. all of it! Genesis to Revelation.

God has 'his people 'which depending on where your reading we have to spot who they are .

 

[Journeyman]

Yes Israel ( collectively) Not individually.

Israel "collectively" are "believers", not "Jews",

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom.9:8

Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. Isa.48:1

You are teaching replacement theology. You're replacing God's people which are believers, for a race of people.

 

[throughfaith]

Israel "collectively" are "believers", not "Jews",

That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. Rom.9:8

Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness. Isa.48:1

You are teaching replacement theology. You're replacing God's people which are believers, for a race of people.

Nope . Your actually doing that in what you've just said there ironically.
What are you saying here ?// Israel "collectively" are "believers",// I get the calvinistic use of " not all Israel are Israel " twisting of that verse . Replacement theology is where the church replaces Israel . Hence the name . Im not Jewish I have no fight in this personally. I'm arguing for the truth of scripture.

 

[throughfaith]

Is there anywhere written to the Body where we are told how to pray , or does it just assume we can pray directly, boldly, intimately and personally direct to God ? Paul never says how to pray in a particular order or fashion .

 

[shittim]

We are joint heirs with Christ and seated with Him at the right hand of the Father, we pray in Jesus name.

 

[throughfaith]

We are joint heirs with Christ and seated with Him at the right hand of the Father, we pray in Jesus name.

That's why the diciples prayer ( among other reasons,) doesn't apply to us .

 

[Journeyman]

Yes Israel ( collectively) Not individually.

There is no race of people who collectively are God's people,

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt.3:9

 

[Journeyman]

Let the verse stand as it is . Not addressed to you . What, there s not enough instruction to the Body on prayer ?

He was speaking to believing Jews who along with believing gentiles are his body,

who hath blessed us (Jews)...as he hath chosen us (Jews)....Having predestinated us (Jews)....wherein he hath made us (Jews)....In whom we (Jews)....Wherein he hath abounded toward us (Jews)....Having made known unto us (Jews)....In whom also we (Jews)....In whom ye (gentiles}....
Eph.1:3-13

The Apostles didn't think of themselves as joining a new organization. They're saying gentiles who believe through Christ become members of his Nation.

 

[Journeyman]

Nope . Your actually doing that in what you've just said there ironically.
What are you saying here ?// Israel "collectively" are "believers",// I get the calvinistic use of " not all Israel are Israel " twisting of that verse . Replacement theology is where the church replaces Israel . Hence the name . Im not Jewish I have no fight in this personally. I'm arguing for the truth of scripture.

Stop listening to theologians who coined the term "replacement theology". The only attempt at replacement going on here is replacing believers who have always been counted as God's people, with unbelievers who arent.

 

[throughfaith]

There is no race of people who collectively are God's people,

And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. Mt.3:9

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, BUT THE ROOT BAREST THEE .

19¶Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith . Be not high-minded , but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree ?

25¶For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your OWN conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is MY COVENANT UNTO THEM , when I shall take away THEIR SINS .

28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching THE ELECTION , they are BELOVED FOR THE FATHERS ' SAKES .

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained MERCY THROUGH THEIR UNBELIEF :

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL .

 

[Journeyman]

Is there anywhere written to the Body where we are told how to pray , or does it just assume we can pray directly, boldly, intimately and personally direct to God ? Paul never says how to pray in a particular order or fashion .

Jesus was speaking to his body in the verse you're arguing about.

 

[throughfaith]

He was speaking to believing Jews who along with believing gentiles are his body,

who hath blessed us (Jews)...as he hath chosen us (Jews)....Having predestinated us (Jews)....wherein he hath made us (Jews)....In whom we (Jews)....Wherein he hath abounded toward us (Jews)....Having made known unto us (Jews)....In whom also we (Jews)....In whom ye (gentiles}....
Eph.1:3-13

The Apostles didn't think of themselves as joining a new organization. They're saying gentiles who believe through Christ become members of his Nation.

1 Corinthians 10:32

“Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:”

1) Jews
2 ) Gentiles
3) Church of God .

 

[Journeyman]

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, BUT THE ROOT BAREST THEE .

19¶Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith . Be not high-minded , but fear:

21For if God spared not the natural branches , take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree ?

25¶For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your OWN conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26And so all Israel SHALL BE SAVED : as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27For this is MY COVENANT UNTO THEM , when I shall take away THEIR SINS .

28¶As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching THE ELECTION , they are BELOVED FOR THE FATHERS ' SAKES .

29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained MERCY THROUGH THEIR UNBELIEF :

31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy UPON ALL .

I'm not boasting against the branches. You are mangling this text into a mass of confusion.