Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

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Jan 31, 2021
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Nothing comes to life, believers are amongst the "Living" and they reign presently now, physically dead or living as I write.
You are simply quite confused.

Before your eyes "Lived and Reigned"
Came to life and reigned. Martyrs, that is.

Not "Came To Life" as the amplified children's bible claims.
Snarky. More than half of the available English translations on biblehub.com have "came to life". So go argue with scholars.

btw, since they were martyrs, "lived" actually means "came to life".

Revelation 20:4KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Right. So explain how those "that were beheaded" then "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

And, since you believe that this reigning is current, when did it start? So I'll know when it ENDS, as Scripture says it will end and be over.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The idea of a pretrib rapture took place back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib concept. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly, without any warning to those who are deceived, in darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.




2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Some people think "at hand" means happened already in the past but that isn't what it means.

"at hand" is used elsewhere where the meaning is clearer:

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Of course that time had not come already in the past. It was near...same in 2 Thess where people thought the second coming was near. They did not think it had already happened. There would literally be no reason to think they missed the second coming given all of the major events that happen that day. No one will be here during the second coming and not realize it had happened due to the absolute change to the world and the changes to the lives of all peoples.



"at hand" means something that is near, not something that had already happened. It is the same when Paul wrote it. The Thess's thought Paul was saying Jesus could come as a thief in the night but he only meant that in regard to the unsaved and blinded...not the Christian watchmen.



2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


All the disciples and Apostles did think they were going to live to see the second coming so the idea that the last days were coming soon is no surprise. Here the same Greek word is used but the writer is not saying the end times have already happened but is yet to come but with the implication is is near, as in near your hand or as we would say, "almost within reach". It's the same idea in 2nd Thess. When Paul is comforting them by telling them Christ will not show up as a thief in the night and surprise you. There are signs that will tell you it is very near ie: at hand or almost within reach or close.




2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".

The Bible makes it clear that there is no pre-tribulation rapture. The tribulation and the appearance of the Antichrist will come first before any rapture takes place. Scripture speaks of the same order of events elsewhere:


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)
This proves the pre-trib (and mid-trib) rapture to be false because the second coming comes after the tribulation not before or during it, Mat 24:29-30


A rapture before the tribulation is impossible according to Mat 24:29-30, and a rapture before the second coming is impossible according to 1Th 4:13-17.


So, the proper order of events according to scripture including Mat_24:29:

1. the great tribulation ends. (Mat_24:29)
2. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16, Mat_24:30)
3. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
4. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)


Again we see that certain events must happen first before a rapture takes place!
The difference is I know both doctrines.
I am able to place myself into your shoes

I KNOW YOUR VERSES.

you DO NOT know mine.
I am teaching you guys.

But you WILL NOT ENGAGE

Postrib rapture doctrine ONLY EXISTS via omission of our verses...that is the ONLY thing you guys are confirming over and over.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The post trib & mid trib models originated after the pre trib industry took flight.
Before the church was permeated with the institutional bias of the new pretrib doctrine
there was no need to use these any of these terms.


Christians only had to speak of the second coming before pretribulation rapture teachers started to divide scripture,
confuse believers and institute their massive business for itching ears.


they were also post and a millinial.

All Postribbers pull that " our dead men were right" card in the debate.

They never looked past that false notion.
Yet another shaky starting place.

My starting place is bride / groom BASED. That is my starting place.

I basically stand alone there.
The only other person with that emphasis is. VCO .
And we are not in 100% agreement.

The Catholics burned "heretics" , such as myself, ( thank you Jesus), and their writings pretrib pre mil writings)

But some survived.

The dead man card is so shaky.

Some of their ideas on the trinity are pure garbage.

They were not by any means deity.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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""The Bible doesn't say that at all. It says they came to life and reigned with Christ 1,000 years. Clear as crystal.""

Lol that is NIV
Here is the Greek ( revieved text)

"....the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for the word of
God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither
his image, neither had received
[his] mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned
with Christ a thousand year"

Yes so clear you got a skewed bible to enhance error.

No resurrection AT ALL there.
Your skewed bible literally invented that.

Get a real translation.

Wait...never mind.

You have too heavy of an investment in your deal.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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The Bible, naturally.


Untruth.


Untruth.


Untruth. I have refuted your claims. From the Bible.
No.
My job is to make you refute the bible.

Either agree with scripture I bring to the table or refute scripture.

Look, you have such a hard job. Your job is to reframes and omit.
That is your job.

You can not make ANY truth come out of a postrib rapture model


Lets test it.
SHOW ME ONE VERSE. ONE VERSE SUPPORTING POSTRIB RAPTURE MODEL.

I will even spot you some slack and we both can pretend there are no rapture verses....you know, the ones you already pretend are not there.

So let us see this postrib rapture verse.

Just one.
Since you got so many, that should be no problem.

Or just give me the page number where you actually proved your doctrine.

There you go.

It could not be easier for you.

I will wait.

( now no smart mouthing and mocking or deflecting...just lay it out for me.)
 
Aug 3, 2019
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That's SDA doctrine. Those who are raptured never go to the 3rd heaven, just the 1st heaven and they will follow Christ and he descends. The thousand years and the ruling happens on the Earth over the nations who did not die when Christ returns. It is false to think the thousand years is in heaven with no one to rule over and that the Earth is devoid of living people.
So, the dead and living saints rise to meet Jesus...only to then go back down to Earth for 1,000 years?

Jesus is gone to prepare mansions in heaven, but we stay down here when He comes? That doesn’t match His obvious reference to the Israelite custom where the bride would always return to his father’s house of the bridegroom, as in the case of Rebekah.

How is it “false” to repeat what Isaiah, Jeremiah, Peter, etc. predict regarding the period where the planet is dark, desolate, uninhabited, destroyed, empty, where all the cities are broken down, bodies of the wicked lie covering the Earth? The depiction of the slain wicked not buried or lamented is in line with what we read about the wicked being destroyed “with the brightness of His coming” when He collects the saints for the journey to heaven, which follows the wicked’s attempt to escape and hide from Him in “the rocks and the mountains” leaving no one behind to mourn or bury them, is it not?

The problem with popular Jesuit Futurist based end time scenarios is none of them account from this period of desolation on Earth - only PROTESTANT HISTORICISM.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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No.
My job is to make you refute the bible.

Either agree with scripture I bring to the table or refute scripture.

Look, you have such a hard job. Your job is to reframes and omit.
That is your job.

You can not make ANY truth come out of a postrib rapture model


Lets test it.
SHOW ME ONE VERSE. ONE VERSE SUPPORTING POSTRIB RAPTURE MODEL.

I will even spot you some slack and we both can pretend there are no rapture verses....you know, the ones you already pretend are not there.

So let us see this postrib rapture verse.

Just one.
Since you got so many, that should be no problem.

Or just give me the page number where you actually proved your doctrine.

There you go.

It could not be easier for you.

I will wait.

( now no smart mouthing and mocking or deflecting...just lay it out for me.)
BTW
That challenge is for ANY Postribbers.

Show me one verse.

We all know the answer.

It is in the workbook.

Lahaye
7th trump
Trumpet
Darby
Church fathers
Jesuits
Last trump
After
Escape


But never have any biblical answer.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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A massive business. For a single doctrine.
They must be desperate to keep the cash flowing as they know the younger generation is abandoning this liberal, big-church lie.


"The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th"

https://www.pre-trib.org/
More info is the bogey man?

Are you aware of that position you are taking?
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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they were also post and a millinial.

All Postribbers pull that " our dead men were right" card in the debate.

They never looked past that false notion.
Yet another shaky starting place.
I'm unsure what you are going on about above.


My starting place is bride / groom BASED. That is my starting place.

I basically stand alone there.
Untrue. You've shut me down every time I've tried to elaborate on the bridegroom and get you to dig deeper.
You appear excessively focussed on the bride at the expense of the central character, the groom.
I think your trust in dispensational theology might be preventing you from examining scripture further.


I can't speak for everyone but the bride/groom illustration is a very well known biblical picture.
You can't claim you have a unique insight there.



The Catholics burned "heretics" , such as myself, ( thank you Jesus), and their writings pretrib pre mil writings)

But some survived.
Unforgiveness & perpetual accusations of Catholics isn't a Christian virtue.
It certainly doesn't prove pretrib theory.



The dead man card is so shaky.

Some of their ideas on the trinity are pure garbage.

They were not by any means deity.
More blather which means nothing to me.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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More info is the bogey man?

Are you aware of that position you are taking?
What? Denial?

A doctrine with an industry of it's own. Alarm bells SHOULD be sounding.
This isn't about the pillars of the faith. It's about a single non-essential doctrine.
Why so much DESPERATION to prove a peripheral doctrine?


 
Aug 3, 2019
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Not one word posted disproves the fact that Jesus Christ dissolves this earth by fire at his second coming, not a one!

No need to create gigantic wording in bold red, its of no value.
Who’s trying to disprove that? It’s been my premise for why it’s impossible to have any seven more years of anything after He comes as a “thief in the night”.

My point is you’re wrong about the New Hesvens/Earth happening at the Second Coming - you keep forgetting the wicked drop dead at the Second Coming, join the already dead wicked for a thousand more years of sleep while the saints reign with Jesus at “my Father’s house” in “Jerusalem which is above” for 1,000 years, followed by the kingdom of New Jerusalem transported to Earth when at that time the wicked are raised, sentenced, cast into the fire which consumes the entire Earth to a crisp, followed by creation of the NH/NE.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The difference is I know both doctrines.
I am able to place myself into your shoes

I KNOW YOUR VERSES.

you DO NOT know mine.
I am teaching you guys.
Not.even.close.

But you WILL NOT ENGAGE
The opposite it true. You have not provided ANY verse that says Jesus takes glorified believers back up to heaven, never mind before or after the Trib.

Postrib rapture doctrine ONLY EXISTS via omission of our verses...that is the ONLY thing you guys are confirming over and over.
You keep repeating yourself, but you have zero verses that support your U-turn theology,

When you say we do not know your verses, it is because you have NO verses that teach about a U-turn.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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I'm unsure what you are going on about above.




Untrue. You've shut me down every time I've tried to elaborate on the bridegroom and get you to dig deeper.
You appear excessively focussed on the bride at the expense of the central character, the groom.
I think your trust in dispensational theology might be preventing you from examining scripture further.


I can't speak for everyone but the bride/groom illustration is a very well known biblical picture.
You can't claim you have a unique insight there.





Unforgiveness & perpetual accusations of Catholics isn't a Christian virtue.
It certainly doesn't prove pretrib theory.





More blather which means nothing to me.
"" you shut me down""
Prove to me your posting of the bride/ groom dynamic anywhere and me not engaging it.
..or " shutting you down".

Not going to happen

I remember you saying they died and were resurrected.

I think I said " does not fit" or something to that effect.

Other than that i have known for years Postribbers do not go there.

I have NEVER seen postribs ANYWHERE unpack any bride/ groom verse, where they initiated and used it in their study.

They will skew that dynamic if it is placed on the table...but never use it in their doctrine.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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What? Denial?

A doctrine with an industry of it's own. Alarm bells SHOULD be sounding.
This isn't about the pillars of the faith. It's about a single non-essential doctrine.
Why so much DESPERATION to prove a peripheral doctrine?


Psssst...google Postrib rapture and see your side doing the same thing.

Really?????

You really do not know your side does the same thing?????
 
Jan 31, 2021
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You already were shown that both sides have a U-turn.
Completely untrue. Any post-tribber who has Jesus taking believers back up to heaven are just way confused.

The Biblical account is that when Jesus comes as the Second Advent, He gathers all believers, living and dead, glorifies their bodies, and sets up His Millennial kingdom. He never returns to heaven.

Run along now and pester someone else
Why the necessity for such snakiness?

You offer zero to the debate
lol. Where are you U-turn verses?? You have failed to show any.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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What? Denial?

A doctrine with an industry of it's own. Alarm bells SHOULD be sounding.
This isn't about the pillars of the faith. It's about a single non-essential doctrine.
Why so much DESPERATION to prove a peripheral doctrine?


Oh wait don't google " postribulation rapture"

Google " pretribulation lies"

Because in the postrib rapture doctrine it is a " backpedal"

Their doctrine is. About 5% postrib apologetic and About 95% ANTI PRETRIB RAPTURE

Their main focus is DISPROVING the pretrib rapture.

That is why they are easy to debate.

I know your position.
I do not need any of your methods.
I go with verses and am revievimg what is written.

Your teachers can not debate me because they have no clue as to the bride/ groom dynamic

No clue.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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""The Bible doesn't say that at all. It says they came to life and reigned with Christ 1,000 years. Clear as crystal.""

Lol that is NIV
Are you smarter than Greek scholars?

Here is the Greek ( revieved text)

"....the souls of them that
were beheaded for the witness
of Jesus, and for the word of
God, and which had not
worshipped the beast, neither
his image, neither had received
[his] mark upon their
foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned
with Christ a thousand year"

Yes so clear you got a skewed bible to enhance error.
Laughable. The text says these people were BEHEADED. No one lives after losing their head. OK? Do you understand that?

So, given that FACT, explain what "they lived" means. Which is AFTER they lost their heads.

No resurrection AT ALL there.
Your skewed bible literally invented that.
Not very honest to leave out the critical verse here, huh.

Here is the very NEXT verse:
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So, the second sentence refers to the one who "lived" AFTER losing their head. So explain what the Bible means by "this is the first resurrection".

So, you say "no resurrection AT ALL there". Yeah, some reading skills there.

Get a real translation.
Prove to me that the NIV isn't real. In fact, more than half of the available translations on bible hub.com have "came to life". So why don't you educate yourself a bit more?

You have too heavy of an investment in your deal.
My investment is in the truth. Of which you are lacking.

You have NEVER shown any U-turn verses. You misquote me frequently. You're the one with the problem.
 
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Any references/sources for this?
Any challenge to them was responded to as against God himself.

They killed millions.

Yes the reference I have is a guy calls himself " husky" on utube.

But I do not have time to go indepth in studying it.

If it is unverifyable by yourself or maybe someone has the time to research it?

Just disregard If it is problematic