****Justified DIVORCE****

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#81
God has called the believer to peace, not remarriage,you gave complete disregard to Romans 7:1-3 that teaches clearly that if a woman is married while he husband lives, she's an adulteress

Gods word isnt contradictory, you took the word "Peace" and added to the word "Remarriage"

This is a prime example of where things are today, and you dont stand alone, 90% of the claiming churches teach the same, 40 years ago it would have been 40-50%

The sin of Adultery isnt preached about in churches today, they falsely teach that adultery is to have sexual relations outside of marriage (A Lie) that is (Fornication)

Adultery is biblically defined to be married to another person while the lawful spouse lives, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, marriage, while previous spouses live (Adultery)

The claiming church in America has at least 20% of its Adult members in the sin of Adultery, the pulpits are silent, keep the donations flowing $$$

1 Corinthians 7:14-15KJV
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
The reason I added "remarriage" was because 1 Corinthians 7:15 says they are not under bondage. In my mind marriage is a binding union so if the marriage is dissolved then there is no bondage.

I am fully aware of what Jesus said regarding adultery.

I'm also aware of what it means to not be under bondage when an unbeliever ends a marriage. So either someone is still under bondage and Paul was wrong or they aren't and he's right. Which is it?

Maybe we should open a whole new thread on this. I didn't think it was debatable but maybe some more digging is in order.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#82
The reason I added "remarriage" was because 1 Corinthians 7:15 says they are not under bondage. In my mind marriage is a binding union so if the marriage is dissolved then there is no bondage.

I am fully aware of what Jesus said regarding adultery.

I'm also aware of what it means to not be under bondage when an unbeliever ends a marriage. So either someone is still under bondage and Paul was wrong or they aren't and he's right. Which is it?

Maybe we should open a whole new thread on this. I didn't think it was debatable but maybe some more digging is in order.
You take the word bondage, and claim it means divorce, and provision for remarriage.

Once again you give complete disregard to Romans 7:1-3 below

The unbelieving that left is her husband, if she marries while he is living (She Shall Be Called An Adulteress)

Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,691
113
#83
You take the word bondage, and claim it means divorce, and provision for remarriage.

Once again you give complete disregard to Romans 7:1-3 below

The unbelieving that left is her husband, if she marries while he is living (She Shall Be Called An Adulteress)

Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Romans 7:1-3 says Paul is speaking to his brethren (presumably Christians) and those who know the law about marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:15 is about an unbeliever, a non-Christian, divorcing a Christian. Paul point-blank says that the believing spouse isn't under bondage in that case. These little details really matter I think.

I believe Paul and Jesus so there's at least two reasons for divorce.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#84
Romans 7:1-3 says Paul is speaking to his brethren (presumably Christians) and those who know the law about marriage.

1 Corinthians 7:15 is about an unbeliever, a non-Christian, divorcing a Christian. Paul point-blank says that the believing spouse isn't under bondage in that case. These little details really matter I think.

I believe Paul and Jesus so there's at least two reasons for divorce.
Paul's was explaining (Adultery) in the (Ten Commandments) that applies to all living humans, salvation plays no part

Romans 7:1-3 applies to all humans, Gods rules and commandments applies to all, "thou shalt not kill" "thou shalt not comit adultery", applies to all

Below in Romans 7:2 the word (Woman) applies to all women

No Mention of believer, brother, sister, but (Woman)

She is bound to her husband so long as he liveth, simple, clear, easy to understand

Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
 

Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
753
564
93
Uk
www.101christiansocialnetwork.com
#85
You dont know this woman personally, nor her husband

Her husband in God's eyes isnt married to the other woman, its Gods plan that he immediately divorce the woman that's not his wife (Adultery) and remain single, or be reconciled to his wife.

If Pickles husband had a repentant change of heart, and she forgave his sin of (Fornication) & (Adultery) there could be reconciliation
THIS IS DREADFUL UNBIBLICAL ADVICE.

DEUT 24
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

4 Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.


The act you speak of causes defilement and would cause the land to sin - it is literally an abomination to God.
NOT the initial divorce and remarriage, which is clearly permissible in the previous verses according to the law.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#86
Yes- that was my thought, even though I divorced him he committed adultery against me , but he says i gave him no other choice when I divorced him. He was freed from the marriage.
So why are you e
You dont know this woman personally, nor her husband

Her husband in God's eyes isnt married to the other woman, its Gods plan that he immediately divorce the woman that's not his wife (Adultery) and remain single, or be reconciled to his wife.

If Pickles husband had a repentant change of heart, and she forgave his sin of (Fornication) & (Adultery) there could be reconciliation
I am not going to go back and forth about this, but it would be helpful to those that are confused about it, this is the position of the Assemblies of God and many other mainline denominations about what the scriptures teach.

One can divorce and remarry if their spouse committed sexual immorality.
One can remarry if their spouse left them and divorced them and they did not want a divorce.

Think about this:

If divorce and remarriage was the same as adultery EXCEPT for fornication then...
Divorce and remarriage in the case of Fornication is not Adultery.

See how simple it is? Of course you can remarry if you divorced your spouse because they cheated on you.

And they do not have to take them back if they say I'm sorry either. They can still divorce and remarry.

Also Paul made it clear that if the unbelieving spouse leaves you beyond your control you are NOT IN BONDAGE to that marriage and free, to remarry.

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Reinterpreting what he said that results in one still being under bondage to the original marriage is a violation of authorial intent and will be rejected by most thinking people.

This is the position of my fellowship and was my interpretation from reading scripture before I knew what my fellowship's position was on it. It is not that complicated.

I think that the OP trying to determine whether her ex had a right to remarry after she is the one that left him and divorced his is rather a bizarre question for her to obsess over. Why does she care? That is more of a question that he should be asking.

But technically he is correct about having a scriptural right to remarry.

Hypothetically speaking if he was a believer and she left him and divorced him he can remarry. He did not want to divorce, she forced it, she was playing the part of the unbeliever and he was trying to maintain the marriage, Paul said he is not in bondage. He did not have to live the rest of his life as single man because she forced him to. That is nonsense.

His situation is pretty clear, he did have the right to remarry. But what about her? Her situation is the one that is going to take some grace to answer. Many would put her under the bondage of life of celibacy and singleness because of her choice to divorce except for the case of fornication and the abuse claims are somewhat vague.. Not sure if she was in a situation that could not have been easily resolved with counseling and working with a pastor. Now what?

Does she stay single forever because of this? That is the Elephant in the Room here.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#87
Paul's was explaining (Adultery) in the (Ten Commandments) that applies to all living humans, salvation plays no part

Romans 7:1-3 applies to all humans, Gods rules and commandments applies to all, "thou shalt not kill" "thou shalt not comit adultery", applies to all

Below in Romans 7:2 the word (Woman) applies to all women

No Mention of believer, brother, sister, but (Woman)

She is bound to her husband so long as he liveth, simple, clear, easy to understand

Exodus 20:14KJV
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.


Romans 7:1-3KJV
1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Paul did not need to add to this Except for the case of adultery as Jesus said divorce is allowed and one is not guilty of adultery for remarraige in that case because that would have distracted from his point which was about the covenant of Moses being anulled by the death of Christ and not about the reasons for divorce.
 
S

SophieT

Guest
#88
Most people don't consider repeated physical abuse an acceptable reason for divorce; I do.

agreed. physical, emotional and spiritual abuse are as much a breaking of the marriage covenant as adultery

I will add that very often adultery is also involved whether or not the other party knows it
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#89
Perhaps if folks considering divorce would contemplate it as an action that precludes remarriage they would not be so quick to execute it. God never intended for folks to get divorced. Moses interceded before God to allow a writing of divorcement due to the hardness of their hearts.

There are many admonitions against getting married without proper counsel and prayerful consideration. The last thing a divorced person should be concerned about is remarriage. God joins a man and a woman together for life. If the marriage vows are broken they are broken before God.

Paul explained the remarriage option as better than burning in lust but that is not a sterling commentary on the situation. It is really an accommodation of a bad situation.

Divorce has become the vehicle through which we achieve serial monogamy. Remarriage is permissible but it is not a means by which divorce is absolved before God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#90
1 Cor 7
5But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Not only would your ex have a right to remarry, but it is possible that "in such cases" allows for you to have the right to divorce him as well. If the abuse was of the extreme nature that one might say is "in such cases". not what God would want you in bondage to.


Wayne Grudem discusses the meaning of this phrase in the Greek and where else it is found in literature from the same time period and has concluded that "in such cases" could apply to things like physical abuse (or verbal abuse of the nature that is extreme)

From what I am understanding by his presentation is that the meaning is that there are cases that God does not expect one to stay in bondage to the marriage, such as physical abuse of heroine addiction or even verbal abuse of the nature that is easy to define as such.

I know that it sounds like I might be trying to find excuses for divorce but what he is presenting does not really change what everyone was already believing without a scripture that specifically told them they know that God allows divorce in the case of a spouse who decides to be an contract killer for the mob. In such cases divorce is allowed an they are not in bondage to that marriage in such cases.

He has recently written a book on his findings.

I bought the audible version and have listened to it once and plan to listen a few more time to retain everything.

"What the Bible Says About Divorce and Remarriage" by Wayne Grudem

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1433568...e-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,539
13,825
113
#91
agreed. physical, emotional and spiritual abuse are as much a breaking of the marriage covenant as adultery

I will add that very often adultery is also involved whether or not the other party knows it
I wouldn't know, but if I think of it, I'll ask a friend who is a counselor.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
#92
1 Cor 7
5But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Not only would your ex have a right to remarry, but it is possible that "in such cases" allows for you to have the right to divorce him as well. If the abuse was of the extreme nature that one might say is "in such cases". not what God would want you in bondage to.


Wayne Grudem discusses the meaning of this phrase in the Greek and where else it is found in literature from the same time period and has concluded that "in such cases" could apply to things like physical abuse (or verbal abuse of the nature that is extreme)

From what I am understanding by his presentation is that the meaning is that there are cases that God does not expect one to stay in bondage to the marriage, such as physical abuse of heroine addiction or even verbal abuse of the nature that is easy to define as such.

I know that it sounds like I might be trying to find excuses for divorce but what he is presenting does not really change what everyone was already believing without a scripture that specifically told them they know that God allows divorce in the case of a spouse who decides to be an contract killer for the mob. In such cases divorce is allowed an they are not in bondage to that marriage in such cases.

He has recently written a book on his findings.

I bought the audible version and have listened to it once and plan to listen a few more time to retain everything.

"What the Bible Says About Divorce and Remarriage" by Wayne Grudem

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/1433568...e-us000-pcomp-feature-scomp-wm-5&ref=aa_scomp
I have not read Grudem's verse.

On the surface, this all seems like trying to come up with an argument to justify divorce in certain cases where it is just so incompatible with our culture to think otherwise.

There are a lot of 'tough passages' like this. For example, God having Israel wipe out all the men, women, and children in certain battles, or having a rapist marry his victim if her father would give him in marriage to her. Especially with the latter, there are well-meaning Christians looking for alternate interpretations. For example, in the latter case, some say this applies to fornication, not rape. (But the man 'seizes' or 'lays hold on' her first.) Rape is very stigmatized, and the idea of a woman marrying her rapist does not sit well with westerners. If you think of it from the perspective that the father wants what is best for his daughter and would not let her marry a monster, hopefully, it may make more sense. He might let her marry if they two liked each other, got overheated, and the boy took it too far. That idea may have made sense to westerners a couple of generations ago, but that line of reasoning does not fit well with the thinking of the current generation on the issue.

Here with the issue of divorce, in our culture, men hitting women is heavily stigmatized. That's a good thing in a lot of ways. But we should also consider that the first century might have had different standards. The head of household in the Roman world could execute people in his household if he deemed it necessary to do so. Slaves were probably beaten if they did not obey. The idea of a head of household (not necessarily her husband) beating a wife or female relative in the home who disobeyed him might not have been considered so shocking back then. I am thinking of Roman pagan culture. I have not found any references that allowed for a man to hit his wife in Jewish (falsely so called rabbinical) literature until the Islamic period where one of their scholars, who lived in an Islamic environment (falsely called 'rabbis') suggested a man might discipline his wife in this way if she had cursed his parents.

I am not sure if this treatment of wives was common among pagans. Paul did advise the husband or wife married to an unbeliever to stay with him or her if he or she would have him. A few centuries later, I do recall hearing, second hand (in a sermon; I have not read the quotes) that other women were surprised that Augustine's father did not beat his mother because he had a bad temper, but she was so submissive, he did not beat her. That was the story. The idea of a husband physically disciplining his wife, while it may not have been a Jewish or Christian value, could have been a practice among pagans. Paul did not say anything about this in his advice in I Corinthians 7. It may have been a social issue-- but maybe one that society (pagan society at least) did not consider to be evil or stigmatized. Maybe it was. If anyone has information on this, I would be interested in knowing.

There are Christians who spank their children if they misbehave in western culture, and there are more left-leaning people who consider that to be just as evil as spousal abuse, too. Should we assume that early Christians would have shared the same stigmas.

There is also the fact that Peter addressed the issue of slaves being beaten when they had done nothing wrong,

I Peter 2
18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. 19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully. 20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. 21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
(NKJV)

This was a form of domestic violence back then. Peter did not say to run away, or for Christians to consider the servant to be freed by this.

Something else to consider is that when one spouse behaves badly, there are Christians out there who are quick to label the individual as an unbeliever and apply Paul's opinion which he says are his opinions and not a commandment of the Lord. If a woman flees from an abusive husband, doesn't it make more sense, exegetically to follow, 'Let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband.'

Another issue here is that the Corinthians may have been concerned about whether marriages to unbelievers were valid in the first place. In Ezra, we read that certain Israelites were required to send away their wives and children by foreign women. This is a difficult passage. It kind of makes sense with the marriages with forbidden people-groups-- people groups that Israelites were not allowed to marry. But Egyptians are mentioned, and it was not forbidden to marry Egyptians. It could be that those who had married Egyptians were priests, who were not allowed to marry foreigners at all.

Be that as it may, it could be that some of the early Christians were wondering if this principle applied to Christians married to pagans, whether their marriages were legitimate. Being married to a pagan or a Jewish unbeliever or Gentile so-called 'God fearer' unbeliever is different from marrying a Christian who errs and sins. So why would Paul's instructions to those married to unbelievers apply?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
9,165
1,795
113
#93
I just want to share a word of warning to those who are free about offering advice to other people about their marriage. I am not calling into question anyone's honesty in particular, but I want to share an observation.

One person's account of their own marriage may not exactly represent reality. There is a saying, there is his version, there is her version, and then there is the truth. We only see things from our own perspective.

Maybe some of you married folks have never experienced this, but I have had a few arguments with my wife over 20 years of marriage. For the most part, it has been fairly peaceful, but on occasion, it has not. Usually, this happened at certain times of the month or during or after pregnancy. But during arguments, sometimes my wife's understanding of what I said or what I meant did not actually represent what I recalled I said or what I meant. She could occasionally read ideas into what I said that were not there.

My wife had a friend who had lots of kids with her husband. They were having marriage problems while losing their apartment due to financial reasons. I had not met the wife at this point, but my wife knew her. She called to talk to my wife, and ended up unloading on me for a long time about her marriage problems. Her husband had done some bad stuff, had a baby with another woman, and disappeared for a while. She said he kept saying things like, "Why don't I just die?" or "Why don't I just go sleep on the beach then?" She complained he did not care about the family and just wanted to sleep on the beach by himself.

So, after moving, they came over to see us. I think this was to line up us housing some small percentage of their many children during their transition to finding a new apartment. They were going to basically be homeless for a little while.

Anyway, the wife just laid into him, verbally, just attacking the poor guy. I know he'd done awful stuff. They were supposed to have reconciled. But it was just a constant stream of harsh criticism. We fed her and she toned it down just a little bit. Just a little. Then I heard the comments. Basically, after talking to him like he did not deserve to live on this earth, from the types of things she was saying, he said, "Why don't I just die then?" or "Why don't I just go be homeless and sleep on the beach?" What he was saying was that if I am as worthless as you are saying, then why should I exist or why should I be with you? He wasn't threatening suicide or threatening to abandon her, as far as I could tell. She just did not get what he was saying. There were a number of other comments. She totally misunderstood and totally misconstrued the situation when she talked to me.

What he did was not right, but I understand why he had left her before. It was probably her mouth. If she attacked him like that before he cheated on her, I know why he left. He said he slept with that woman after he'd had a conversation with his wife and she said it is over. Some people, especially unbelievers, think a conversation like that makes adultery okay. I've heard a couple of people use that justification in TV and online media recently. At this point in his life, he knew that was wrong.

People in these painful emotional situations can misinterpret information. They can also edit history in their minds. A couple meet, fall in love, and get married and have a wonderful time together. Five years later, she tells him she wants a divorce. If you talk to her, she has a revised history of their marriage in her head. They were never in love. Their marriage was awful from the start. She latches on to a few bad memories. His telling her she looked fat in that dress or a few off comments when he is in a bad mood or when she has talked to him terribly during an argument become a history of 'verbal abuse.' His controlling the money becomes financial abuse. If she gets ahold of some materials from a domestic violence center, if he's a Christian, his quoting verses about wives submitting to their husband gets labeled as part of a 'divorce wheel.' If they argue-- and she is as big of an instigator as him-- and they make up, and it happens over and over again, that 'cycle' is part of an 'abusive' cycle she reads about. There is a lot of reading material out there to make people feel like a woman has been 'abused' when no one has laid a 'finger' on her.

There is also some percentage of abuse that involves the story of the woman who hits her man. They get into a fight, and she starts punching. He can't hit back, because she's a girl, and that is heavily stigmatized in our culture. One day, he bruises her wrists restraining her, or loses it and slaps her or hits her after she'd been wailing on him. She calls the cops and he goes to jail. The police may have a policy of arresting someone for a domestic violence call. They usually take the men away. If too many violent women get hauled away, feminist activists might complain. There aren't many male activists groups applying pressure the other way. So he gets a mark against his record that can be used against him in divorce court and custody battles in the future.

There are cases where the woman is the victim, where the husband is a big violent bully. But there are a lot of other cases where it is more complicated. And there are cases where the man is the victim of a violent, irrational woman, too. There are also exaggerated perceptions. There are divorcees who talk about being 'abused'. They are talking about mean words or the other person controlling the bank account, etc., not fists flying. You hear 'abuse' and you think black eyes and broken bones. If you say, "Divorce him" or "You were right to divorce him." you could be encouraging someone to sin, based on misleading information.

Proverbs 18:17
The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
(ESV)

My wife and I have never cussed at each other. I've never threatened my wife with divorce. But I have said some things to my wife that I wish I could take back. She's done the same with me. If you are married, and your spouse took the worst words you have ever said, strung them all together in a story about how you are as a wife or a husband, he or she could probably paint a rather abusive picture of you. And that is what some people do when going through the pain of a damaged relationship. Some of these things may be sinful, but they are not beyond the scope of 'normal' stuff that many married couples go through. If you had a spouse who editted your marriage in his/her brain and told a pastor who believes in divorce..... and remarriage... over 'abuse' of every kind, you might find advocating for your partner to end your marriage. This is dangerous stuff, and we need to be aware of this.

There was a 'Christian counsellor' show that I occasionally caught a bit of when I was in the car. I never heard the whole thing, but the time or two I heard it, one person called in, described a situation, and the 'Christian counselor' advised separation--- based on one person's testimony. I think one was a case of 'verbal abuse.' I wonder how some people keep their license diagnosing people over the radio having heard only one side of the story.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#94
Be that as it may, it could be that some of the early Christians were wondering if this principle applied to Christians married to pagans, whether their marriages were legitimate. Being married to a pagan or a Jewish unbeliever or Gentile so-called 'God fearer' unbeliever is different from marrying a Christian who errs and sins. So why would Paul's instructions to those married to unbelievers apply?
Since he was addressing the question as to whether it was good to never have sex (touch a woman) the most probable application is that they might have been dealing with a teaching that it was more spiritual to not have sex and remain unmarried, and that some of them might have been thinking that even not having sex if you are married was better.

If anything he was telling them that their marriage to an unbeliever should be kept and that included sex with them. If they leave you then you are not in bondage to that marriage but if they are willing to stay you should not abstain from sex. I mean that is what he seems to be addressing if we follow the thought from the beginning. People try to parse it out to apply to all sorts of things but he was writing a real letter to real people who had asked him about abstaining from sex. Keep the response to that answer and you will get more from it than all sorts of other things that he had not even been asked about.
 
T

TheIndianGirl

Guest
#95
Usually wife beating is caused by sinful rage and violent anger for trivial reasons (such as she overcooked the meal) or due to unneccessary jealousy and suspicion. Usually in these types of relationship, the wife dare not commit adultery, as she could be killed. What also happens is that the husband is angry for other reasons and takes out his anger on the wife. Wife beating was accepted by both husband and wife in the old days. It could even be a sign of a good husband, someone who disciplined his wife. Back then, as women were uneducated and could not earn an income, they had no choice but to go back to the husband. Sons saw the fathers beating wives and thought it was normal. Nowadays, any physical assault is wrong including spitting on someone, rightly so. Jesus emphasized that laws are written in our hearts, so assault on anyone unless due to self-defense, would be wrong. Relationship between husband and wife is never the same after wife beating; there will always be a sense of fear from the wife expecting the worst and the memories of pain last forever.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,074
4,360
113
#96
I am hoping to find an answer to the question that bothers me since I divorced my husband after 22 years. I walked out and left him after he broke me down so bad mentally and physically I was afraid of his rages since he had beat me in the past . The last blow was him getting angry at me when we went on vacation and did not have a plan as to what we would do. The next year he cut me off finachially from accounts, I made as much as him. My family disowned me over being jealous (narcissist) . I had no where to turn was afraid to tell anyone what was going on behind closed doors for fears the next outrage with him would be way worse. I found a way to hide money from withholding in my check to another account without him knowing. A year later I packed up and moved out with all I could take while he was at work. He told me I would have to be the one to file the divorce, I agreed really did not have the Christian background on what the bible said. He was engaged and married within 3 yrs after we divorced. He said by me divorcing him, it gave him no other choice but to remarry . I left him. My question is - is he right about him being able to remarry since I filed and left him.
I am very sorry to hear about your ordeal. I want you to know any husband or wife who uses the word of God to Control a person is not a follower of Christ.

In addition, divorce and a person remarrying is a choice that person makes with the one they are marrying of remarrying.

The lie of the devil and controlling people is there is no choice. "YOU MADE me remarry" sounds very familiar don't it? "You made me hit you" You made me cheat on you" well the devil is a liar.

Do not allow a person to control you with guilt and manipulation. You can tell that person YOU are accountable to God for your own marriage and remarriage I have nothing to do with it. Divorce is finished finality unless there is reconciliation. IF not You are on your own and so is he.

let it go and leave him or her to the Lord and move on with your life in the Lord.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#97
Maybe some of you married folks have never experienced this, but I have had a few arguments with my wife over 20 years of marriage. For the most part, it has been fairly peaceful, but on occasion, it has not. Usually, this happened at certain times of the month or during or after pregnancy. But during arguments, sometimes my wife's understanding of what I said or what I meant did not actually represent what I recalled I said or what I meant. She could occasionally read ideas into what I said that were not there.


So the only arguments you've ever had in your marriage have been her fault because she was too emotional? Did I misread what you're saying here?


My wife had a friend who had lots of kids with her husband. They were having marriage problems while losing their apartment due to financial reasons. I had not met the wife at this point, but my wife knew her. She called to talk to my wife, and ended up unloading on me for a long time about her marriage problems. Her husband had done some bad stuff, had a baby with another woman, and disappeared for a while. She said he kept saying things like, "Why don't I just die?" or "Why don't I just go sleep on the beach then?" She complained he did not care about the family and just wanted to sleep on the beach by himself.


Ahh, he was playing the victim after not only having sex with another woman, but getting her pregnant and then abandoning his family. Got it.


Anyway, the wife just laid into him, verbally, just attacking the poor guy.


Why the "poor guy"? Seems to me he rather brought it on himself.


I know he'd done awful stuff. They were supposed to have reconciled. But it was just a constant stream of harsh criticism.


Doesn't mean they still didn't have issues to work through. As you said, he did some awful stuff. Takes a lot of time to build back trust after something like that.


Basically, after talking to him like he did not deserve to live on this earth, from the types of things she was saying, he said, "Why don't I just die then?" or "Why don't I just go be homeless and sleep on the beach?" What he was saying was that if I am as worthless as you are saying, then why should I exist or why should I be with you? He wasn't threatening suicide or threatening to abandon her, as far as I could tell. She just did not get what he was saying. There were a number of other comments. She totally misunderstood and totally misconstrued the situation when she talked to me.

What he did was not right, but I understand why he had left her before. It was probably her mouth.


You're talking out of two sides of your mouth here. Are you saying his leaving her was justified and her own fault? Because unless you lived with them, you have no idea what went on in their marriage. You're making a judgement call based on your own bias.



If she attacked him like that before he cheated on her, I know why he left.


Supposition and judgement calls. " If " is the magic word here.

He said he slept with that woman after he'd had a conversation with his wife and she said it is over. Some people, especially unbelievers, think a conversation like that makes adultery okay. I've heard a couple of people use that justification in TV and online media recently. At this point in his life, he knew that was wrong.


People usually blame the other person and justify what they are doing. Very few people admit where they were wrong in the relationship. Nothing justifies having sex and impregnating another woman.

People in these painful emotional situations can misinterpret information. They can also edit history in their minds. A couple meet, fall in love, and get married and have a wonderful time together. Five years later, she tells him she wants a divorce. If you talk to her, she has a revised history of their marriage in her head. They were never in love. Their marriage was awful from the start. She latches on to a few bad memories. His telling her she looked fat in that dress or a few off comments when he is in a bad mood or when she has talked to him terribly during an argument become a history of 'verbal abuse.'


My sister has stayed in a marriage of verbal abuse for 18 yrs. Please don't dismiss it as "her fault" or " she brought it on herself ". It's abuse. Period.

His controlling the money becomes financial abuse. If she gets ahold of some materials from a domestic violence center, if he's a Christian, his quoting verses about wives submitting to their husband gets labeled as part of a 'divorce wheel.' If they argue-- and she is as big of an instigator as him-- and they make up, and it happens over and over again, that 'cycle' is part of an 'abusive' cycle she reads about. There is a lot of reading material out there to make people feel like a woman has been 'abused' when no one has laid a 'finger' on her.


The OP has said she was abused. I'd think she'd be smart enough to know if she was or wasn't. Are you saying women aren't abused? Because so far I'm seeing a thread through your post that the woman is always to blame, they don't understand their man.



There is also some percentage of abuse that involves the story of the woman who hits her man. They get into a fight, and she starts punching. He can't hit back, because she's a girl, and that is heavily stigmatized in our culture. One day, he bruises her wrists restraining her, or loses it and slaps her or hits her after she'd been wailing on him. She calls the cops and he goes to jail.


That's quite a story you've made up that has nothing to do at all with what the OP said and has yet again found a way to blame the woman.


There are cases where the woman is the victim, where the husband is a big violent bully. But there are a lot of other cases where it is more complicated. And there are cases where the man is the victim of a violent, irrational woman, too. There are also exaggerated perceptions. There are divorcees who talk about being 'abused'. They are talking about mean words or the other person controlling the bank account, etc., not fists flying. You hear 'abuse' and you think black eyes and broken bones. If you say, "Divorce him" or "You were right to divorce him." you could be encouraging someone to sin, based on misleading information.


Or you could be telling a woman to stay in an abusive situation, which is more often the case in churches unfortunately.


My wife and I have never cussed at each other. I've never threatened my wife with divorce. But I have said some things to my wife that I wish I could take back. She's done the same with me. If you are married, and your spouse took the worst words you have ever said, strung them all together in a story about how you are as a wife or a husband, he or she could probably paint a rather abusive picture of you.


There is nothing, nothing that my husband has said to me, nor I to him, that could ever be considered abuse. You know if your words and actions are abusive.


And that is what some people do when going through the pain of a damaged relationship. Some of these things may be sinful, but they are not beyond the scope of 'normal' stuff that many married couples go through. If you had a spouse who editted your marriage in his/her brain and told a pastor who believes in divorce..... and remarriage... over 'abuse' of every kind, you might find advocating for your partner to end your marriage. This is dangerous stuff, and we need to be aware of this.


Not the situation. Far more women are told to stay in an abusive marriage, as my sister was. Eighteen years later she's still there, suffering it out.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,685
2,495
113
#98
So why are you e


I am not going to go back and forth about this, but it would be helpful to those that are confused about it, this is the position of the Assemblies of God and many other mainline denominations about what the scriptures teach.

One can divorce and remarry if their spouse committed sexual immorality.
One can remarry if their spouse left them and divorced them and they did not want a divorce.

Think about this:

If divorce and remarriage was the same as adultery EXCEPT for fornication then...
Divorce and remarriage in the case of Fornication is not Adultery.

See how simple it is? Of course you can remarry if you divorced your spouse because they cheated on you.

And they do not have to take them back if they say I'm sorry either. They can still divorce and remarry.

Also Paul made it clear that if the unbelieving spouse leaves you beyond your control you are NOT IN BONDAGE to that marriage and free, to remarry.

But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

Reinterpreting what he said that results in one still being under bondage to the original marriage is a violation of authorial intent and will be rejected by most thinking people.

This is the position of my fellowship and was my interpretation from reading scripture before I knew what my fellowship's position was on it. It is not that complicated.

I think that the OP trying to determine whether her ex had a right to remarry after she is the one that left him and divorced his is rather a bizarre question for her to obsess over. Why does she care? That is more of a question that he should be asking.

But technically he is correct about having a scriptural right to remarry.

Hypothetically speaking if he was a believer and she left him and divorced him he can remarry. He did not want to divorce, she forced it, she was playing the part of the unbeliever and he was trying to maintain the marriage, Paul said he is not in bondage. He did not have to live the rest of his life as single man because she forced him to. That is nonsense.

His situation is pretty clear, he did have the right to remarry. But what about her? Her situation is the one that is going to take some grace to answer. Many would put her under the bondage of life of celibacy and singleness because of her choice to divorce except for the case of fornication and the abuse claims are somewhat vague.. Not sure if she was in a situation that could not have been easily resolved with counseling and working with a pastor. Now what?

Does she stay single forever because of this? That is the Elephant in the Room here.
I appreciate your honesty, yes it is the Assembly Of God's position, whom your ordained by,

2001 brought about big change as seen below in the article, in many Christian's opinion's (Apostasy)


The AOG dosen't stand alone on this either, a sign of the times.

DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE RESOLUTION PASSES
by ROB CUNNINGHAM on August 9, 2001


The General Council made history Wednesday by voting to permit men and women who were divorced before conversion to pursue ministerial credentials with the Assemblies of God.

But there was a sharp divide over whether the historic vote was a good or bad move for the Fellowship.

"Is this a response to correct an error in our theology, or a response to our culture?" one pastor from Minnesota asked during Wednesday afternoon’s debate. "Our culture should be shaped by our theology, not our theology being shaped by our culture. This is a road that we can’t afford to go down because it’s going to cost us way too much."

Resolution 15—approved by a 998-834 margin on a secret ballot—changes sections of the General Council Bylaws that set the standards that candidates for ministerial credentials must meet. Under the new guidelines, the AG will consider applicants who were divorced before conversion—and can present evidence to prove that it truly was a pre-conversion divorce.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#99
So we cannot expect unsaved people to behave like believers. Men who physically abuse their wives are not in fellowship with Christ. Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church and gave Himself for it. Husbands that love the Lord Jesus give sacrificial love to their wives.

Wives who love the Lord and are in fellowship with Him readily obey their husbands. They can trust that their husband will not abuse their trust in him because they know he is obedient to Christ.

What we have here is a number of folks who may not be saved and did not marry a saved partner who now find everything to be a miserable disaster. All the parties involved are suffering and seeking relief from the consequences of their actions.

A man who will not provide for his family is considered worse than an infidel. The church is to help and care for orphans and widows because they cannot care for themselves in many cases.

Things have no hope of improvement until the proper relationship with Christ is present.

You cannot cure the symptoms if you do not address the underlying disease.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I appreciate your honesty, yes it is the Assembly Of God's position, whom your ordained by,

2001 brought about big change as seen below in the article, in many Christian's opinion's (Apostasy)

The AOG dosen't stand alone on this either, a sign of the times.

DIVORCE/REMARRIAGE RESOLUTION PASSES
by ROB CUNNINGHAM on August 9, 2001


The General Council made history Wednesday by voting to permit men and women who were divorced before conversion to pursue ministerial credentials with the Assemblies of God.

But there was a sharp divide over whether the historic vote was a good or bad move for the Fellowship.

"Is this a response to correct an error in our theology, or a response to our culture?" one pastor from Minnesota asked during Wednesday afternoon’s debate. "Our culture should be shaped by our theology, not our theology being shaped by our culture. This is a road that we can’t afford to go down because it’s going to cost us way too much."

Resolution 15—approved by a 998-834 margin on a secret ballot—changes sections of the General Council Bylaws that set the standards that candidates for ministerial credentials must meet. Under the new guidelines, the AG will consider applicants who were divorced before conversion—and can present evidence to prove that it truly was a pre-conversion divorce.
It is not a change due to culture. It is a change because it was never a scripturally supportable rule.

God does call men to preach and pastor who had divorces before they got saved. To say that they cannot be a pastor is not a rule you will find in the bible and is something that is contrary to the bible concerning how the Old man is passed and the New Creature in Christ is forgiven of all past sins including divorces.

Of course God calls people who were divorced before they got save to the ministry. Any rule that said otherwise needed changing.