Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?

[Guojing]

Jesus took on the punishment for sin,

2cor 5:21

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus never sinned But God placed on HIm NOT IN HIM, Jesus did not sin nor did HE know Sin HE suffered for others, not HIMSLF.

Jesus did not change to sin , or become a sinner,

His death was for you and me. Jesus was quoting PS 22 because those there were asking for a sign yelling at HIM to come down and they would believe. God did not forsake Jesus. In the Psalms when one would read the first part which would cause the assembly to respond with the remaining Psalm.

When Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
the response would be:

why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

look at the remeaning verses from PS 22 and read the gospel crucifixion account.

O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

You have answered Me.

22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD.
Let your heart live forever!

27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD’s,
And He rules over the nations.

29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.
_________________________


God did not forsake Jesus. And Jesus said

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Psalms 22 says

19 But You, O LORD, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!


21 You have answered Me.

24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

I did not say Jesus sinned as in verb, I am saying he took Adam's sinful nature as in noun, the sin that caused the separation (Romans 5:12-19)

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus became sin at the cross

2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Christ wasn't "made sin" he was made to be the sin sacrifice. That's what Paul means and this same thing is used in the OT, "sin" being shorthand version of "sin offering".

Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

H2403
????? ?????
chat?t?a^'a^h chat?t?a^'th
khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'
From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).


Here "sin offering" is actually just one word that means sin, but it is meant to be understood as the offering for sin not sin itself and Paul being Jewish would know and use this.


The verse should be understood as "For he hath made him to be a sin offering for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

(TLV) He made the One who knew no sin to become a sin offering on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

(Williams) He made Him who personally knew nothing of sin to be a sin-offering for us, so that through union with Him we might come into right standing with God.

Barnes:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - The Greek here is, ‘for him who knew no sin, he hath made sin, or a sin-offering for us.’


Clarke:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us.



Matthew Henry:

He was made sin; not a sinner, but sin, that is, a sin-offering, a sacrifice for sin.

 

[Guojing]

2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Christ wasn't "made sin" he was made to be the sin sacrifice. That's what Paul means and this same thing is used in the OT, "sin" being shorthand version of "sin offering".

Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

H2403
????? ?????
chat?t?a^'a^h chat?t?a^'th
khat-taw-aw', khat-tawth'
From H2398; an offence (sometimes habitual sinfulness), and its penalty, occasion, sacrifice, or expiation; also (concretely) an offender: - punishment (of sin), purifying (-fication for sin), sin (-ner, offering).


Here "sin offering" is actually just one word that means sin, but it is meant to be understood as the offering for sin not sin itself and Paul being Jewish would know and use this.


The verse should be understood as "For he hath made him to be a sin offering for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

(TLV) He made the One who knew no sin to become a sin offering on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

(Williams) He made Him who personally knew nothing of sin to be a sin-offering for us, so that through union with Him we might come into right standing with God.

Barnes:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - The Greek here is, ‘for him who knew no sin, he hath made sin, or a sin-offering for us.’


Clarke:

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us - He made him who knew no sin, (who was innocent), a sin-offering for us.



Matthew Henry:

He was made sin; not a sinner, but sin, that is, a sin-offering, a sacrifice for sin.

I used the difference between noun and verb

But you prefer to use the difference between sin vs sin-offering.

That is fine with me, the point is, he was forsaken by God because he became sin at the cross, whether noun or sin-offering.

 

[ewq1938]

I used the difference between noun and verb

But you prefer to use the difference between sin vs sin-offering.

That is fine with me, the point is, he was forsaken by God because he became sin at the cross, whether noun or sin-offering.

God cannot "become sin". Like I said, this is about being made a sin offering. He was also never forsaken by his Father.

 

[Guojing]

God cannot "become sin". Like I said, this is about being made a sin offering. He was also never forsaken by his Father.

Then why did Jesus said

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

 

[Magenta]

Then why did Jesus said

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22... and fulfilling the prophesies contained therein.

 

[ewq1938]

Then why did Jesus said

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Word for word quoting of what David wrote:

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

 

[Guojing]

Word for word quoting of what David wrote:

Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

True, its from the Psalm but that is not my point.

I was asking, even though he was not forsaken by God, he still utter that out. Was he joking?

 

[Guojing]

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22... and fulfilling the prophesies contained therein.

So was Jesus really forsaken by God, in your view?

 

[ewq1938]

True, its from the Psalm but that is not my point.

I was asking, even though he was not forsaken by God, he still utter that out. Was he joking?

He spoke parables that were designed to confuse those that listened, except the disciples whom he explained the parables to. This is the same concept. He was teaching and referring to fulfilled prophecies like thousand years other poster mentioned.

 

[ewq1938]

So was Jesus really forsaken by God, in your view?

David felt he was forsaken by God but he was wrong. Christ quoted David to draw people to the entire chapter not that this one verse applied to Christ.

 

[Guojing]

David felt he was forsaken by God but he was wrong. Christ quoted David to draw people to the entire chapter not that this one verse applied to Christ.

Interesting interpretation you have.

Alright, I prefer to understand that statement by Christ literally

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting interpretation you have.

Alright, I prefer to understand that statement by Christ literally

That's not a wise way to understand what he taught.

If I said, "My God, my God, why have thou forsaken me?"

Would you assume I thought God had forsaken me or would you think I was quoting something David said? You appear to think that's what I thought about God but it's pretty clear I was only quoting scripture.

 

[Guojing]

That's not a wise way to understand what he taught.

If I said, "My God, my God, why have thou forsaken me?"

Would you assume I thought God had forsaken me or would you think I was quoting something David said? You appear to think that's what I thought about God but it's pretty clear I was only quoting scripture.

I basically follow the rule of bible interpretation “if the literal meaning of the words make sense, seek not alternative interpretation, unless the context dictate otherwise”.

 

[Magenta]

True, its from the Psalm but that is not my point.

I was asking, even though he was not forsaken by God, he still utter that out. Was he joking?

So was Jesus really forsaken by God, in your view?

Jesus repeatedly said He only said what was given to Him from the Father to say and do, and that it was for our benefit. It is generally accepted that the sins of the world fell on Him at that moment; I believe He was basically uttering how people will feel when, at judgment, they realize the enormity of their sin/error in rejecting God. No, He was not joking.

 

[Guojing]

Jesus repeatedly said He only said what was given to Him from the Father to say and do, and that it was for our benefit. It is generally accepted that the sins of the world fell on Him at that moment; I believe He was basically uttering how people will feel when, at judgment, they realize the enormity of their sin/error in rejecting God. No, He was not joking.

So your answer will be yes, he was forsaken by God.

Would that be the correct understanding?

 

[Evmur]

So was the crucifixion necessary?

You mean God poured that punishment on HIMSELF, surely?

The choice is between you and Christ, He did it for you so that you don't have to.

 

[Blik]

Mar_2:15 And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him.

It is very important for Christians to know that God does not hear sinners, scripture tells us so. It is also important to know that God always listens to ones who go to Him with worship and asking for forgiveness is always heard. God haters the evil that people want to keep, but if they want God, God is there for them offering love and acceptance of the person they are, the part that does want sin within them. God loves the humans that He created.

 

[ewq1938]

It is very important for Christians to know that God does not hear sinners, scripture tells us so.

God ate dinner with sinners. Maybe he couldn't hear what they said, if what you say is true, but he certainly spent time with sinners. I'd say more than 33 years of spending time with sinners. He even forgave many of them and washed their feet which was a metaphor for washing sin away.

 

[Jocund]

So your answer will be yes, he was forsaken by God.

Would that be the correct understanding?

If he felt forsaken by God the Father, this could be seen as a complete immersion into the human condition (to be disconnected, however momentarily, from God the Father, as Jesus took on the sins of the world and sin itself is a condition of being disconnected from God).

The other interpretation is that Jesus was speaking only in reference to Psalm 22, to the benefit of his witnesses so that they may understand what was happening.