The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

[Kolistus]

Hey Your Catching On!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

All of these are true, but the timing is where you are off, your last verse that you quoted proves it.

Revelation 20:9... when does this happen? After the millennium.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The teaching that "that day" must always refer to the day of judgement is also a Darby teaching.

It's not that it *always* refers to "judgment" (and "judgment" alone)... it is that (when used in proximity [/same context] as the phrase "the DOTL") both these phrases together refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (located on the earth), and which STARTS with "judgments" unfolding, and also goes on to INCLUDE "blessing" (neither aspect consisting merely of "a singular 24-hr day," but all-told, a very lengthy time-period--but again, BOTH ASPECTS: "judgment-followed-by-blessing"... but it STARTS with [/its ARRIVAL is the START of] the "JUDGMENT" aspect [aka "birth PANGS" Jesus spoke of / the INITIAL "birth PANG" Paul speaks of, 1Th5:2-3, its ARRIVAL point in the overall chronology, but neither of these covering its TOTALITY, see... [the BEGINNING / INITIAL is just the FIRST PART of the entire lengthy whole...])

 

[Kolistus]

The period you're referring to is known as the 1,000 year reign of Christ because Satan will be bound for 1,000 years before roaring back to life, resurfacing, and then briefly persecuting the world.

Satan bound for 1,000 years mean that people won't be corrupted by demonic influence.

This occurs after the wicked are dealt with after the great tribulation at the return of Christ and rapture of the church and the first resurrection of the saints.

Satan comes back, deceives the nations again, battle of Gog and Magog, God destroys all of the wicked again.

Next is the second resurrection of the wicked, great white throne judgement, new heavens and earth where only righteousness dwells, eternity begins. No loose ends.

Check Revelation 16 and Revelation 20.

Satan comes back and deceives what nations? You just said Jesus destroys the wicked at the return of Christ?

 

[cv5]

But that wouldn't be the case (that he's doing that).

In the context of these 2 chpts, Paul is covering various "points-in-time" (and much "spans-of-time") as what all he is covering (again, just like the RELATED passage ALSO show [Rev4-19 / Dan9:27(26b) / Olivet Discourse / 2Th1-2 -- each covering the entire SEVEN YEARS]).

For example, most ppl do not believe that "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the same exact moment that "the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and SHALL DESTROY by the appearance of the presence of Him." Most acknowledge a spans of time occurring between these two points in the chronology (though differing, perhaps, in their views of just "how much time").

One key to ascertaining "what happens when, in relation to what other thing/things" in this text, is the fact that, 1) in every place where the phrases "the day of the Lord" [v.2 (v.3a's Subject)] and "IN THAT DAY" [1:10] occur elsewhere in Scripture, they always refer to the SAME time-period [and always earthly-located]; and 2) Paul's use of the phrase "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (1Th5:2-3--which is the point-in-time of "the DOTL's" ARRIVAL, he's saying) hailing back to Jesus' words when He spoke in His Olivet Discourse re: "the BEGINNING of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (which is just the START of MANY MORE "birth pangs [plural]" which FOLLOW ON from these, and which "BoBPs" are equivalent [we can note] with the "SEALS" which were later disclosed via John's writings in 95ad).

Agreed. And again in 1 Thess 5 Paul is making definitive distinctions between the redeemed and the unsaved:

-"you" know the times and seasons ("they" do not) v.1
-"you" know about the Day of the Lord ("they" do not) v.2
-sudden destruction comes upon "them", "they" shall not escape (implied we shall escape) v3
-"you" Are not in darkness, that day shall not overtake "you" (you will not be in it....the sudden
destruction of v.3) v.4
-we are sons of light they are sons of darkness v.5
-we are not asleep......they are v.6
-we are not appointed to wrath they are v.9

 

[cv5]

Amillenialism does solve a lot of problems, doesn't it?

Amillennialism is a serious heresy. As for me I have no choice but to depart from anyone preaching that doctrine.

 

[Runningman]

Satan comes back and deceives what nations? You just said Jesus destroys the wicked at the return of Christ?

Matthew 24 compares the state of the world in the great tribulation to the days of Noah.

God didn't like how many wicked people there were in the days of Noah so in His grief (not wrath) He sent a flood. (Genesis 6:6)

Instead of a flood, He will send Jesus and angels to harvest the Earth. Matthew 13:36-43 explains the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Matthew 24 explains how the angels will gather His elect, and Revelation 14:14-16 is along this same point.

Wait it's not over...

Next, according to Revelation 20, there is either a literal or symbolic 1,000 year reign of Christ (still undecided because a day is like 1,000 years to God) during which time Satan is bound, then released, then comes back to deceive the nations yet again with "Gog and Magog." And God destroys them with fire.

Really starting to consider making some visual aids like a timeline and flowcharts. Thanks for the questions.

Revelation 20:7-10
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

@Runningman , are you saying that any "mortals [/still-living persons]" will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (however long you think that lasts), upon Christ's "RETURN" [/Second Coming]?

Or... are you saying that point in time is "the end of the world" [/time]? (along the lines of "Amillennialism"--the MK age being "NOW"/"this present age")

I am becoming more and more unclear as to your viewpoint, my apologies. Can you clarify briefly?

When are you saying that Rev20:7-10 takes place in relation to Christ's Second Coming / RETURN? Right then? Some time later? What?

 

[Kolistus]

Matthew 24 compares the state of the world in the great tribulation to the days of Noah.

God didn't like how many wicked people there were in the days of Noah so in His grief (not wrath) He sent a flood. (Genesis 6:6)

Instead of a flood, He will send Jesus and angels to harvest the Earth. Matthew 13:36-43 explains the parable of the Wheat and Tares, Matthew 24 explains how the angels will gather His elect, and Revelation 14:14-16 is along this same point.

Wait it's not over...

Next, according to Revelation 20, there is either a literal or symbolic 1,000 year reign of Christ (still undecided because a day is like 1,000 years to God) during which time Satan is bound, then released, then comes back to deceive the nations yet again with "Gog and Magog." And God destroys them with fire.

Really starting to consider making some visual aids like a timeline and flowcharts. Thanks for the questions.

Revelation 20:7-10
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

But who is satan deceiving? If all the wicked are dead, and the righteous are in resurrection bodies? The second resurrection doesn't occur until AFTER the devil is thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[surfer14]

Dispensationalism was brought to us by Schofield who was promoted by the prominent jew Samuel Untermeyer. Untermeyer wanted to bend Protestantism to be more favorably inclined towards jews. That's how these things work. Dispensationalism is psychological warfare.

 

[Kolistus]

Amillenialism does solve a lot of problems, doesn't it?

If only it could solve Revelation 20 in a sensical manner. Here is the amill interpretations of Rev 20 I have heard so far, my comments in brackets:

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time. [Allegedly this means Jesus bound satan for longer than thousand years so that the devil cant assemble everyone against the church until he is loosed at the end of the longer than thousand years, which marks what? End of church age? Who knows]

4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. [This is the most confusing part of Amillennialism, they differ amongst themselves a bit here on when this occurs either at death when people's soul goes to heaven or when they are saved here on earth, but that is the first resurrection. But the part in bold is where both of these interpretations fall apart. Because of the phrase "Rest of the dead did not come to life until..." is there, it negates the possibility of this being a spiritual resurrection. Unless they say rest of the dead are also spiritually resurrected after the millennium? Which would mean everyone is saved, which we know is not the case, some are thrown into the lake of fire. Furthermore it begs the question, what is the thousand years, is it the church age during which the church rules? Why isn't this rule really seen? It seems we are in apostasy, people showing up as nak3d cowboys to "church"? Where is the reigning?]

7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. [The second coming according to amillennialists, after which resurrection (bodily). This part again we have to say the beloved city is the church and camp of God's people is the church also. Gog and Magog is just generic enemies of the Church, but wait, isn't the world already against the Church? Is not the devil presently deceiving the nations? In India there are tons of muslims and hindus, are they not deceived? Tons of people persecuting Christians, are they not deceived presently? As Peter says, the devil is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. There is so much demonic activity in this world.]

 

[Runningman]

But who is satan deceiving? If all the wicked are dead, and the righteous are in resurrection bodies? The second resurrection doesn't occur until AFTER the devil is thrown into the lake of fire.

If the 1,000 year reign of Christ is on Earth then the ones deceived would be the nations of people.

If the unbinding of Satan occurs in the spiritual realm where he goes to "deceive the nations" then that would probably be along the line sof Revelation 12 where the devil leads a rebellion in heaven.

If angels can be deceived into a rebellion then don't you think that a person with a glorified body can be deceived?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

No, that's not how it would spell out, and not what is being said by those who are making the case.


3 "that day [the earthly time period of judgments unfolding (from verse 2!)] will not be present if not shall have come THE Departure FIRST..." [i.e. our "Rapture" HERE in this sentence... not in part A (v.3a) of the sentence!]

Darby was practicing pure deceit when he substituted falling away for departure, he was smart, too smart to have made a simple mistake. It is a deception.

Fact is (as I pointed out a few posts ago), he did not use that word in such a way (I provided the link to his commentary on 2Th2 in that post). He simply did NOT, and I have no clue as to why you are saying he did.



I think that the name "JND" is simply a scapegoat-name for any negative thing one takes a notion to pin on him (things they personally detest and disparage), though not actually the case... Either that, or they've been listening to false info to this effect on internet sites and in book publications and so forth, and have simply come to embrace all such things as "fact," because it suits their narrative... OR, the "memory" has become faulty, and who they *really* meant was some OTHER dude... (who knows!)



And besides that fact ^ which I had shown in that post... I had also put in Post #16 of this thread, the following quote (excerpted here):

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8]"


[end quoting excerpt]


____________


The 400s ad, and 1384ad came long before the 1800s, when Darby lived. So how does one explain that the first seven English translations (before the kjv existed) translated it as a "departure" or "departing" (same for the Latin Vulgate, in Latin though)?

No one initiated the [first-ever] "change" of wording to say "departure" in the 1800s, to be abundantly clear. lol

 

[Kolistus]

The things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 aren't found below?

1.) NO Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) NO Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) NO Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time, one day is a thousand years in the Lords spiritual realm (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% Is The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

(Symbolic Not Literal)

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Symbolic of what?

 

[Runningman]

@Runningman , are you saying that any "mortals [/still-living persons]" will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (however long you think that lasts), upon Christ's "RETURN" [/Second Coming]?

Or... are you saying that point in time is "the end of the world" [/time]? (along the lines of "Amillennialism"--the MK age being "NOW"/"this present age")

I am becoming more and more unclear as to your viewpoint, my apologies. Can you clarify briefly?

When are you saying that Rev20:7-10 takes place in relation to Christ's Second Coming / RETURN? Right then? Some time later? What?

It's fine.. I am still hashing out whether the MK is literal or symbolic. Other posters have made some good points that is making me reexamine the MK scriptures to see how it meshes exactly.

I do believe a MK exists in some form because it's right there in the Bible that there is a 1,000 year reign of Christ.

I think Revelation 20 is definitely after the return of Christ.

 

[Kolistus]

If the 1,000 year reign of Christ is on Earth then the ones deceived would be the nations of people.

If the unbinding of Satan occurs in the spiritual realm where he goes to "deceive the nations" then that would probably be along the line sof Revelation 12 where the devil leads a rebellion in heaven.

If angels can be deceived into a rebellion then don't you think that a person with a glorified body can be deceived?

Logically yes, but to think we aren't saved even after we are saved is just unthinkable. We are in the image of Christ after the resurrection, so I do not believe we can be deceived in that state.

 

[Absolutely]

I think the rapture is like the gathering of the wheat and tares. Revelation 14 coincides well with the gathering done by angels in Matthew 24. Notice this gathering event occurs directly before the end. After the gathering it's judgment time.

Why do you say it's a gathering of only the people of Israel? Do you think "the elect" are only Jews or are they Christians? I think the elect are Christians and what remains of the of the Jews, exactly 144,000 Jews, at the time of Jesus' return.

Re read up on the 144k

They are firstfruits.

So they automatically precede main harvest.

It is all in rev 14

The 144k are in heaven DURING the trib.

That alone messes up the dead in christ PRECEEDING the living


That alone blows a hole in postrib rapture you can sail a ship through.

Just that one thing!!!!

 

[Runningman]

Logically yes, but to think we aren't saved even after we are saved is just unthinkable. We are in the image of Christ after the resurrection, so I do not believe we can be deceived in that state.

Read 2 Peter 2:4-22

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Absolutely]

No there is not a separate gathering of the church.

Any rapture verse you cite is in context of the second return of Christ and that happens only one time.

You continue to refuse to RECONCILE verses that make that dynamic COMPLETELY impossible.

It is as if you think ignoring verses and repeating a tired erroneous doctrine it will become real.

Those verses DO NOT disappear for a poorly thought out doctrine.

 

[Runningman]

Re read up on the 144k

They are firstfruits.

So they automatically precede main harvest.

It is all in rev 14

The 144k are in heaven DURING the trib.

That alone messes up the dead in christ PRECEEDING the living


That alone blows a hole in postrib rapture you can sail a ship through.

Just that one thing!!!!

I don't see the problem you say exists and actualy you said they are in heaven. Revelation 14 says they are on Mount Zion on Earth. So you got it wrong:

Look at the first verse (KJV) below please.

Jesus has clearly returned at this point and has touched down upon Mount Zion with His 144K.

Then Revelation 14:14-20 is the harvest of the earth.

Revelation 14:1
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[Runningman]

Re read up on the 144k

They are firstfruits.

So they automatically precede main harvest.

It is all in rev 14

The 144k are in heaven DURING the trib.

That alone messes up the dead in christ PRECEEDING the living


That alone blows a hole in postrib rapture you can sail a ship through.

Just that one thing!!!!

Thanks for showing that. You actually just disproved the pre-tribulation rapture by showing me that the 144K are on Earth, precisely on Mount Zion, when Jesus returns. And not already raptured up to heaven.

Now I can add that to my talking points.