The key to the Pre-Trib Rapture:

[Ahwatukee]

It does not say that at all

It says that day [when we meet the Lord in the clouds] will not come unless the apostases has come first and the man of sin is revealed the son of perdition who opposes everything god so call or object of worship who takes his seat in the temple claiming that he is himself God.

apostases is rebellion and the man of sin is the man of rebellion.

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

Darby was practicing pure deceit when he substituted falling away for departure, he was smart, too smart to have made a simple mistake. It is a deception.

Greetings Evmur,

Actually, the word 'departure' is a valid translation for 'apostasia,' however, it must retain the meaning of the Greek word that it is derived from. What they are trying to do, is take the the word departure and then change its meaning to mean depart up into the air to meet the Lord. If they want to use that word as a translation, then it would have to mean departure from their stand in faith and not blasting off into the sky. I tried to explain to them, that they are just blatantly ignoring the definition of the word and its usage in Acts 21:21.

Paul begins with "the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him," followed by "the Day of the Lord,' also referred to as 'that day.'

That said, it is the Day of the Lord (the time of God's wrath) that will not have come until the the apostacy and the man of lawlessness is revealed.

The gathering of the church initiates the Day of the Lord in that, once the church is gone then the apostacy will have occurred and the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

The way you put it is
that day [the rapture] will not come unless the rapture comes first ... no sense at all.

Totally agree with what you said above and have said the very same thing.

All one has to do is to look at the definition of the word 'apostasia' and its translated synonyms such as 'rebellion, defection, revolt, forsake, desertion and fall away." It is therefore not possible to force 'apostasia' to mean to departure up into the air?

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't see the problem you say exists and actualy you said they are in heaven. Revelation 14 says they are on Mount Zion on Earth. So you got it wrong:

Look at the first verse (KJV) below please.

Jesus has clearly returned at this point and has touched down upon Mount Zion with His 144K.

Then Revelation 14:14-20 is the harvest of the earth.

Revelation 14:1
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

Hebrews 12:22KJV
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Revelation 14:1KJV
1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

[Truth7t7]

The gathering of the church initiates the Day of the Lord in that, once the church is gone then the apostacy will have occurred and the man of lawlessness will be revealed.

Your claim is false, the gathering takes place at the (Second Coming) of the Lord, not a Pre-Trib rapture as you falsely suggest above.

The scripture clearly teaches the Church present on earth, will be eyewitnesses seeing the (Man Of Sin/Antichrist) being revealed, "Before" That Day Takes Place.

(The Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "AND" Our Gathering Together Unto Him)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8KJV
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[Scribe]

I found the key to the pre-tribulation rapture:

View attachment 226691

You poor misguided people.

Ok David Koresh....

 

[Truth7t7]

Ok David Koresh....

The individual posted a masterpiece of dispensationalism,and a broken key?

David Koresh?

No, The Truth, there is no such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, no place

It's a Darby, Scofield, propagated fairy tale (Truth)

 

[Live4Him]

Ok David Koresh....

I haven't heard that name in years.

We're giving away our ages...lol.

 

[cv5]

The problem enters when one (as many do) defines those ^ words/phrases: "the Day of the Lord," "destruction [this Grk word]," "darkness [/in the night]," and "wrath" to be referring to [basically] the split-second moment of His "RETURN" (i.e. Second Coming), or other "very short" matter of mere days, rather than how Scripture itself defines these... and one VERY IMPORTANT CLUE in this text (which I find most "overlook / bypass / disregard") is Paul's use, here, of JESUS' OWN TERM: "birth PANG" (they both/each [Jesus and Paul] are speaking of the SAME THING / SAME POINT IN TIME / SAME STARTING-GUN, KICK-OFF point!)

(Paul is saying the INITIAL ONE, is the ARRIVAL of the DOTL... an earthly time-period of judgments unfolding over the course of a very specific, yet-future, LIMITED duration leading up to His RETURN to the earth [not leading up to 'our Rapture, but FOLLOWING it!], and involving "signs" and "the man of sin"--again, the "BoBPs" ARE the "SEALS," so the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" Paul speaks of here [its ARRIVAL] is when the "DOTL" WILL indeed then BE PRESENT (to unfold upon the earth, consisting of "judgments," etc ^ ), at the START of the trib years, i.e. SEAL #1... not commencing at the CONCLUSION of those years)

I was just listening to some of John MacArthur's Matt 25 exegesis today. In it he makes this very error when speaking to "not knowing the day or the hour", coming as a thief etc. Because of this his exegesis lacked cohesiveness.......really it missed the mark.

 

[Runningman]

The problem enters when one (as many do) defines those ^ words/phrases: "the Day of the Lord," "destruction [this Grk word]," "darkness [/in the night]," and "wrath" to be referring to [basically] the split-second moment of His "RETURN" (i.e. Second Coming), or other "very short" matter of mere days, rather than how Scripture itself defines these... and one VERY IMPORTANT CLUE in this text (which I find most "overlook / bypass / disregard") is Paul's use, here, of JESUS' OWN TERM: "birth PANG" (they both/each [Jesus and Paul] are speaking of the SAME THING / SAME POINT IN TIME / SAME STARTING-GUN, KICK-OFF point!)

(Paul is saying the INITIAL ONE, is the ARRIVAL of the DOTL... an earthly time-period of judgments unfolding over the course of a very specific, yet-future, LIMITED duration leading up to His RETURN to the earth [not leading up to 'our Rapture, but FOLLOWING it!], and involving "signs" and "the man of sin"--again, the "BoBPs" ARE the "SEALS," so the INITIAL "BP [SINGULAR]" Paul speaks of here [its ARRIVAL] is when the "DOTL" WILL indeed then BE PRESENT (to unfold upon the earth, consisting of "judgments," etc ^ ), at the START of the trib years, i.e. SEAL #1... not commencing at the CONCLUSION of those years)

Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.

Ok i read it.
It says AFTER the trib He returns. As we have agreed for many years...no problem.

But just before that return he gathers grom heaven ..not earth.

Oh wait he does NO GATHERING.
Angels do all the gathering.

Yep..... that ain't the rapture.

As you clearly pointed out
Thanks

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.

Ok i read it.
Ot says AFTER the trib He returns.

But just before that return he gathers grom heave ..not earth.

Oh wait he does NO GATHERING.
Angels do all the gathering.

Yep. that ain't the rapture.
As you clearly pointed out
Thanks

 

[Absolutely]

Jesus says what the beginning of birth pains are and when the end [of birth pains] comes with the preaching of ths gospel to all nations.

The next phase is the great tribulation which begins with the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. Then there shall be great tribulation such as has never been seen before.

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.

Ok i read it.
Ot says AFTER the trib He returns.

But just before that return he gathers grom heave ..not earth.

Oh wait he does NO GATHERING.
Angels do all the gathering.

Yep that ain't the rapture.

 

[Runningman]

Ok i read it.
Ot says AFTER the trib He returns.

But just before that return he gathers grom heave ..not earth.

Oh wait he does NO GATHERING.
Angels do all the gathering.

Yep that ain't the rapture.

The "four winds" is a reference to the Earth.

There's no one in the sky to gather so this isn't saying that the angels are also gathering people from heaven doesn't really fit unless maybe people on airplanes.

This is saying they are taken from the Earth to the sky basically. It's the rapture.

Mark 13:27 puts it like this:

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

 

[Absolutely]

"""Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation"""

Again, keep reading.
Jesus shifts gears into watching waiting being ready and WHEN the RAPTURE occurs.

Crystal clear.

Postribs jump on noah and the wrath, and the millions judged and drown. Then reframe it to AFTER THE FLOOD.

NO NO NO.
Jesus said BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Now Jesus is talking PREJUDGEMENT/ PRETRIB.

PRETRIB NOAH
PRETRIB THE WORLD IS IN BUSUNESS AS USUAL.
PRETRIB ONE TAKEN ONE LEFT
PRETRIB WATCH WAIT BE READY.

IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS IT.

 

[Truth7t7]

The end of the great tribulation is marked by the return of Christ who first touches down upon the Earth on Mount Zion to meet His 144K people as shown in Revelation 14:1.

After Christ meets His 144K on Earth at Mount Zion, as noted in Revelation 14, they are raptured to the throne to sing praises. This is why they are known as first fruits.

Then, in step with Matthew 24, Jesus sends out His angels to gather His elect from the rest of the Earth. This is the completed rapture and it is also known as the harvest of the wheat and the tares.

Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation. I think He made every effort to say this, including stating point blank that He returns after the tribulation of those days.

Read Matthew 24, understanding it's a chronological sequence of events.

Jesus coming to earth, and taking a 144,000 back to the throne is a false teaching found in the (Jehovah's Witnesses) and it's splinter groups

Zechariah 14:4, Jesus returns to The Mount Olivet, not Zion as claimed above.

This return will be (The Day Of The Lord) taking place, in fire and Final judgement, as the heavens, earth, are dissolved by his fire.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

 

[Absolutely]

The "four winds" is a reference to the Earth.

There's no one in the sky to gather so this isn't saying that the angels are also gathering people from heaven doesn't really fit unless maybe people on airplanes.

This is saying they are taken from the Earth to the sky basically. It's the rapture.

Mark 13:27 puts it like this:

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

SAYS HEAVEN.

Then it says Angels gather...not Jesus

Can not be the rapture

Rev 19 the bride is already in heaven before the trib ends
Rev 19 the bride becomes the wife.....in heaven
Rev. 19 the wife returns to earth with Jesus.
Rev 19 a warrior Jesus with an army goes to earth to kill the ac and his army.

Postrib rapture is impossible.


Read " my" verses ( the ones i post...i do not own them).
You will see a difference.
Undeniable.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus coming to earth, and taking a 144,000 back to the throne is a false teaching found in the (Jehovah's Witnesses) and it's splinter groups

Jesus returns to Mount Olivet, not Zion as claimed above.

This return will be (The Day Of The Lord) taking place, in fire and Final judgement, as the heavens, earth, are dissolved by his fire.

Revelation 14:1-4 says He comes to mount zion and the 144K are there. Then the 144K are singing before the throne.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus coming to earth, and taking a 144,000 back to the throne is a false teaching found in the (Jehovah's Witnesses) and it's splinter groups

Zechariah 14:4 Jesus returns to The Mount Olivet, not Zion as claimed above.

This return will be (The Day Of The Lord) taking place, in fire and Final judgement, as the heavens, earth, are dissolved by his fire.

Zechariah 14:4KJV
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

I'm opening a thread on it. If the mods post it and you think you can debunk it then do it there.

 

[Truth7t7]

"""Since this is a chronological sequence of events there's no other conclusion that Jesus returns post-tribulation"""

Again, keep reading.
Jesus shifts gears into watching waiting being ready and WHEN the RAPTURE occurs.

Crystal clear.

Postribs jump on noah and the wrath, and the millions judged and drown. Then reframe it to AFTER THE FLOOD.

NO NO NO.
Jesus said BEFORE THE FLOOD.
Now Jesus is talking PREJUDGEMENT/ PRETRIB.

PRETRIB NOAH
PRETRIB THE WORLD IS IN BUSUNESS AS USUAL.
PRETRIB ONE TAKEN ONE LEFT
PRETRIB WATCH WAIT BE READY.

IMPOSSIBLE TO MISS IT.

The parable speaks of Noah and Lot, both were removed from harm's way

Noah,the flood killed all living humans

Lot, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire from heaven

When Jesus Christ is revealed in the second coming, those that died in faith are resurrected,and the living church is caught up, it's fire time!

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm opening a thread on it. If the mods post it and you think you can debunk it then do it there.

I really have no interest in arguing Jehovah's Witness eschatology

Jesus returns for those that died in faith and the living church, all believers receive the glorified body and Eternal Kingdom in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

The Jehovahs Witness teaching that only 144,000 chosen get that E ride ticket to heaven is a false teaching.

 

[Runningman]

I really have no interest in arguing Jehovah's Witness eschatology

Jesus returns for those that died in faith and the living church, all believers receive the glorified body and Eternal Kingdom in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

The Jehovahs Witness teaching that only 144,000 chosen get that E ride ticket to heaven is a false teaching.

I agree that it isn't only the 144K who go to heaven, but they are the first fruits of the rapture as far as I can tell. I'm also not a Jehovah's Witness. Far from it! They quote the Bible, too, and probably get some things right from time to time, but the bulk majority of it is wrong.

I'll let Revelation 14:1-4 speak for itself.