Not By Works

[posthuman]

the old corpse and its ways are not us anymore, wisdom is to put it away.

see @Phoneman-777 it is not because i am in constant terror of damnation if i do not meet my quota of good works that i will and want to walk righteously. it is because of wisdom. it is because of love

 

[posthuman]

see @Phoneman-777 it is not because i am in constant terror of damnation if i do not meet my quota of good works that i will and want to walk righteously. it is because of wisdom. it is because of love

@Phoneman-777

there is a reason to do what is right apart from fear of punishment. you don't have to depend on threats and dread to convince someone who is being supernaturally conformed to the image of Christ to walk in Him.

fear and threatening is how you force the world with its unwilling heart to impose outward behavioral changes, which have no benefit to the heart or the soul. i wish you'd figure that out.

 

[VCO]

Faith is much more than mental assent. To have faith in God is to believe on, look to, hope in and trust in God. Many who believe in eternal security do not think saving faith is only mental assent to a set of beliefs. I believe it is deeper than that.

Yes, and it saturates our WHOLE BEING, and I do not think they can understand that.

 

[ronair]

Post #151357 explains both parts.

Both are true. Christians have their hope and faith in Christ and they continuously struggle against the sin in their life. We know the Apostle Paul was a Christian. We know also that he continued to have sin in his life due to the weakness of his flesh, as he told us. Again see how Paul puts it.

“For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:14-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/rom.7.14-25.kjv

He says “ it is no more I that do it”. So, it is in this sense that Christians no longer sin. It’s all laid out right there.

If both parts of the verse are true then why does the verse not apply to Paul? Why do you use this verse in Post# 151,346 to call out the loset but exempt Paul?

 

[JBTN]

If both parts of the verse are true then why does the verse not apply to Paul? Why do you use this verse in Post# 151,346 to call out the loset but exempt Paul?

In that post I was responding to Phoneman’s assertion that someone who climbs down or deliberately continues in sin could have once been saved. 1 John 3:6 makes it clear that that is not the case. Lets look at the context to understand the first part of the verse.

“And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.3.3-6.kjv

If our hope is in Christ we are continually purified. He was manifested to take away our sins. So, for those who are in Christ they are continually purified and their sins are taken away. These are the people like Paul who are continually struggling against the sinful nature of our flesh. There is no inconsistency between what Paul said in Romans 7 and what John said in 1 John 3:3-6.

 

[Phoneman-777]

this definition is not consistent with what anyone here believes. we don't obtain life through works, but through mercy -- but you're still working with this strawman-imaginary-person whom God somehow simultaneously redeems but doesn't redeem.

you're describing a false salvation in which God is not and never has been at work in a person. you're describing a deceived person and a gospel of works wholly independent of the power of God, resting completely on human will, determination & effort to whitewash a tomb.

"The mercy of God:
permits the Christian to escape the punishment of hellfire for committing the same iniquity which the non-Christian will suffer."
"The OSAS License to Sin:
permits the Christian to escape the punishment of hellfire for committing the same iniquity which the non-Christian will suffer."

So, it all just boils down to the label we assign, right? The truth is that God's mercy is never extended to the impenitent, presumptuous, habitual sinner (Proverbs 28:13 KJV) no matter how much OSAS Licensees demand that He do so.

 

[Phoneman-777]

When you said "righteous will keep God’s commandments for all eternity", aren't you also saying they cannot have the free choice to sin too?

The two thirds of the angels who choose daily to be as faithful as they chose to be when Satan rebelled in heaven will answer "No."

Will not then (and should not presently) the saints also choose daily to do the same?

 

[Guojing]

The two thirds of the angels who choose daily to be as faithful as they chose to be when Satan rebelled in heaven will answer "No."

Will not then (and should not presently) the saints also choose daily to do the same?

So are you saying, saints will have the free will to choose to rebel after the 2nd coming, some of them might and if they do, they will also join Satan and his rebellion?

 

[gb9]

"The mercy of God:
permits the Christian to escape the punishment of hellfire for committing the same iniquity which the non-Christian will suffer."
"The OSAS License to Sin:
permits the Christian to escape the punishment of hellfire for committing the same iniquity which the non-Christian will suffer."

So, it all just boils down to the label we assign, right? The truth is that God's mercy is never extended to the impenitent, presumptuous, habitual sinner (Proverbs 28:13 KJV) no matter how much OSAS Licensees demand that He do so.

so, at your church, if you attend one, do ya'll sing a couple of hymns, the pastor bashes o s a s, then prays that no one will be lost to that evil belief, dismiss, and leave.

that is all you talk about.

 

[posthuman]

"The mercy of God:
permits the Christian to escape the punishment of hellfire for committing the same iniquity which the non-Christian will suffer."

do you not believe Christ forgives sin?

 

[Phoneman-777]

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬
https://www.bible.com/1/1jn.3.6.kjv

I think this makes it clear. A person who continues in sin has never known him.

Unlike many of my opponents who cling to "proof texts" while ignoring mine and stubbornly refuse any attempts at textual harmony because anything less than their rigid interpretations totally undermines them, I always seek textual harmony without fear of the same.

But, before I address 1 John 3:6 KJV, please consider one of many examples that can be given to overthrow OSAS:

Matthew 24:12-13 KJV:​

"And because iniquity shall abound, the love (agape) of many shall wax cold, but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."​

​

No one is going to argue that the unrighteous are partakers of "agape", which means these "many" who through the practice of iniquity kill their agape cold and dead, fail to endure to the end, and end up not saved....are saints.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, regarding the "known" of 1 John 3:6 KJV:
If we compare this verse with 1 John 2:3 KJV where "know" is used twice, in the Greek it is two different verb tenses and to convey the distinction, the clause may be rendered, "We are knowing that we have come to know and still know". So, when John says, "Neither known Him", doesn't necessarily mean "ever known" but can easily mean "has not known since lapsing into rebellion".

If we rigidly interpret 1 John 3:6 KJV "neither known Him" as "never known Him at all", then we introduce textual disharmony - we cause a contradiction with 1 John 2:3 KJV, as well as with several other passages that clearly depict saints falling back into a state which is "worse than the beginning" of them. What say you?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I did.

Learned nothing new.

You should read his post again, And lay aside your pride and see what he really said.

I don't have any pride to lay aside....however, if people laid aside their rebellion and fully surrendered to Jesus, then they wouldn't need a OSAS License to Sin, now would they?

 

[Phoneman-777]

do you not believe Christ forgives sin?

Do you not believe the Unmerciful Servant was forgiven -- and fully convinced he was forgiven -- by virtue of his walk out into freedom instead of being dragged into the dungeon in chains?

 

[Phoneman-777]

And Your opinion of what Constitutes "Sound Biblicial Doctrine" is based on LIES and Mis-information about OSAS. Almost everything you have believed about OSAS is a Lie. Almost everyone on this board has tried to correct you, and told what we really believe, and you will not listen. Do you know it is not that you believe the opposite that we do, on SALVATION; why I had to put you on my IGNORE LIST. It is your Constant LIES and MIS-INFORMATION about OSAS Beliefs. You seem to have a PERSONAL VENDETTA against OSAS, what WE BELIEVE IN WITH OUR WHOLE HEART, which goes Much, Much DEEPER than you could ever imagine.

Do you know, almost everyone on this board recognizes your Lies and Mis-Information, and none of us can respect that. If you had everything correct about our Beliefs, and said "I cannot believe that, because of this verse and that verse." We could respect your viewpoint, while we just Agree to Disagree, and we would pray for you to understand. But that is not the case, and your constant Lies and Mis-Information, is only rediculous.

It can only fall into this category, please repent.

Proverbs 6:16-19 (HCSB)
16 The LORD hates six things; in fact, seven are detestable to Him:
17 arrogant eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that plots wicked schemes, feet eager to run to evil,
19 a lying witness who gives false testimony,
and one who stirs up trouble among brothers.

That is a fact, and the truth. How do you correct this Problem ? ? ? Please Trashcan everything you have ever LEARNED about OSAS,
and ask us what do we really believe, and WHY ? ? ? We will be honest with you, unlike the teacher you learned the Lies and Mis-Information from.

It's funny how you keep referring to my Scripturally sound spiritual propositions as "lies" - speaks volumes about your estimation of the Word.

No matter how much you try to set it down and clean it up and dress it up so it can go to church, OSAS is nothing more than a false "License to Sin" doctrine which claims we may by dead faith obtain that which can only be obtained by living faith: eternal life.

Please read all of your Bible, not just the passages that appeal to your carnally minded interpretations.

 

[posthuman]

Do you not believe the Unmerciful Servant was forgiven -- and fully convinced he was forgiven -- by virtue of his walk out into freedom instead of being dragged into the dungeon in chains?

do you believe the Son of God forgives sin, or don't you?

if you do, then believers enter life despite their sin - no one is without sin, but God.
if you don't, there is no such thing as salvation.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Faith is much more than mental assent. To have faith in God is to believe on, look to, hope in and trust in God. Many who believe in eternal security do not think saving faith is only mental assent to a set of beliefs. I believe it is deeper than that.

I'm certain there are many OSAS believers who are surrendered to Christ and would sooner die rather than commit deliberate, habitual, known sin aka iniquity...my fight is not with them.

It's with those who claim "we can't keep the law" and thus rely on their OSAS License to Sin while reading with both eyes open where Paul says in Hebrews 12 if we've yet to paint the ground red with bloody sweat in our fight against temptation, as did our Lord in Gethsemane, we need to sit down and shut up.

 

[Phoneman-777]

because we have died in Him. the old corpse and its ways are not us anymore, wisdom is to put it away. that's all explained in ch. 6; it is how we are saved - through His crucifixion - and through His resurrection we have life, even as we are also being renewed

the 2nd goat is set free at Yom Kippur; the two birds are undivided in Genesis 15, left whole

How long do you think that goat survives on it's own after being "set free" in such a hostile environment that is requires a "fit man" to lead it there? I assure you it is not long before it is immediately devoured. The 2nd goat is not representative of Christ.

 

[posthuman]

How long do you think that goat survives on it's own after being "set free" in such a hostile environment that is requires a "fit man" to lead it there? I assure you it is not long before it is immediately devoured. The 2nd goat is not representative of Christ.

do you believe in forgiveness of sin, or do you not believe in forgiveness of sin?

is that an uncomfortable question? why?

 

[Phoneman-777]

do you believe the Son of God forgives sin, or don't you?

if you do, then believers enter life despite their sin - no one is without sin, but God.
if you don't, there is no such thing as salvation.

Do you believe the Unmerciful Servant walked out a consciously free, forgiven man, or don't you?

If you do, then burn your OSAS License to Sin and place both your faith and will in Christ.
If you don't, then God is not Just for condemning sinners to hellfire for committing the exact same iniquity for which you claim the saints get a pass.

 

[posthuman]

Do you believe the Unmerciful Servant walked out a consciously free, forgiven man, or don't you?

If you do, then burn your OSAS License to Sin and place both your faith in and your will on the side of Christ.
If you don't, then God is not Just for condemning sinners to hellfire for committing the exact same iniquity for which you claim the saints get a pass.

why is it so hard for you to confess that Christ died to forgive sin?