What does it mean that Jesus fulfilled the law, but did not abolish it?

[Blik]

I would say that it is you who are ignoring scripture. For anyone who can read all that I listed on this subject and still wants to live under the law, doesn't get it!

Where did you get the idea that is said that we can live a live of disobedience? I never said that.

If you are in Christ, you are no longer under the law. And if you are following Christ, you are going to be living a life to please God. When we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. There will be many who will try to enter in by keeping the law, but won't be able to enter.

As we go from faith to faith we are being transformed into the image of Christ, i.e. taking on His nature.

Those who are trying to please God by keeping the law have wandered away from grace and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Because the one who is trusting in the law, is trusting in his own works to obtain salvation. While the one who is under grace is trusting in the finished work of Christ, who paid the penalty for our sins by the shedding of His blood.

The question is, what did you do with all of those scriptures that I provided? Obviously you did not believe them. When you put yourself under the law, you are obligated to keep the whole law, not just a part of it. And when you break just one of them, you've broken all of them and are guilty. Jesus fulfilled the law on our behalf, satisfying it completely. Now we follow Christ, lead by the Spirit and not the written code which brings wrath when we fail to keep it.

Those who trust in the works of the law are going to be eternally disappointed

If you live under the law, then you expect salvation to result from obedience, and that cannot be for the Lord does not save based on obedience. Giving our will over to Christ is NOT expecting salvation from law obedience. Accepting Christ in faith is living under grace, not law. But what you are doing is refusing to repent from sin. God asks that we give up our will to sin and accept the righteousness of living with Christ within.

God explains the law that governs His kingdom. If we decide that we can ignore what God has given us, we ignore the Lord.

 

[Journeyman]

Jesus did not subject himself to the law as an example to us. He fulfilled the law so that all righteousness would be fulfilled for us. His teachings example to us was that he loved those who followed him and his enemies that sought to kill him, that he put himself aside for others, and that he gave his life for us.

Since Jesus fulfilled the law, he could not have been looked upon by his Father, or put to death, as a violator of that law.

Putting an innocent man to death for what sinners do isn't righteousness. It's unrighteousness.

 

[luigi]

Matthew 5:17 Jesus said, “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

????

The Lord lived and preached loving our fellowman as we do ourselves. When someone loves their fellowman as they do them self, they then will not rob them, kill them, covet their property, and so on. The Lords faith/belief in love therefore fulfilled the Law.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It means fulfill, it does not mean abolish. And, yes, these are perfectly reconciled.

Greetings tribesman,

The reference to 'fulfilling' the law, means to meet its righteous requirements, satisfying it completely. Once Jesus did that, it was legally fulfilled for all believers. It is akin to the word which says, "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin" Since Jesus shed His righteous blood on behalf of every believer, it has been satisfied on our behalf. We are saved by having faith in Christ. When one puts themselves under the works of the law, they are trusting in their own efforts. Those believing that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, are trusting in what Christ did.

Anyone who wants to put themselves under the law, must keep the whole law, not just some of it. And when we break it in just one place, we have broken the whole law and are found guilty. Those who are trusting in Christ's finished work, are led by the Spirit and are made righteous through faith. Paul gave an example of this when writing to the Romans:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

He also says the following to the Galatians who were turning away from salvation by believing the gospel and turning back to salvation by the works of the law:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?"

Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed it when God said that Abraham's heir would come from his own body as a promise. And that He would make him the father of many nations. Abraham believed him and God credited him with righteousness. And we who believe in His Son are also credited with righteousness.

Christ fulfilled the law completely for the believer. If one is following Christ, he is not going to be doing the things that the law says not to do, yet we are not under the law. And when we fail at any of things, we confess it and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Those trying to enter in by keeping the works of the law, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

If you live under the law, then you expect salvation to result from obedience, and that cannot be for the Lord does not save based on obedience. Giving our will over to Christ is NOT expecting salvation from law obedience. Accepting Christ in faith is living under grace, not law. But what you are doing is refusing to repent from sin. God asks that we give up our will to sin and accept the righteousness of living with Christ within.

God explains the law that governs His kingdom. If we decide that we can ignore what God has given us, we ignore the Lord.

Well, go ahead and try keeping the law then. And remember, you must keep the entire law perfectly. For if you break even one of them, you've broken all of it. Oh, wait you already have broken it! Ok, you're done!

The person who trust in the works of the law is stumbling over the stumbling block just as Israel is to the very day. For listen to what Paul says regarding this:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Do you understand the meaning of this and the following:

"Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian."

"For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes"

I gave you scripture after scripture, which are very clear in their means, yet you still disbelieve. But this is Satan's doing. For scripture tells us that in the last days people will not put up with sound doctrine. But instead to suit their own desires, they will gather around themselves teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths.

Jesus gave us an example of those who will be trusting in their own works and they will not able to inherit the kingdom of God.

We do good works not to obtain or maintain salvation, but to glorify God. And by doing so, we are building up our treasures in heaven.

 

[Dino246]

Accepting Christ in faith is living under grace, not law. But what you are doing is refusing to repent from sin.

How in the world do you get that from what he wrote?

I had hoped you had learned not to do this.

 

[Blik]

Greetings tribesman,

The reference to 'fulfilling' the law, means to meet its righteous requirements, satisfying it completely. Once Jesus did that, it was legally fulfilled for all believers. It is akin to the word which says, "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin" Since Jesus shed His righteous blood on behalf of every believer, it has been satisfied on our behalf. We are saved by having faith in Christ. When one puts themselves under the works of the law, they are trusting in their own efforts. Those believing that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, are trusting in what Christ did.

Anyone who wants to put themselves under the law, must keep the whole law, not just some of it. And when we break it in just one place, we have broken the whole law and are found guilty. Those who are trusting in Christ's finished work, are led by the Spirit and are made righteous through faith. Paul gave an example of this when writing to the Romans:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

He also says the following to the Galatians who were turning away from salvation by believing the gospel and turning back to salvation by the works of the law:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?"

Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed it when God said that Abraham's heir would come from his own body as a promise. And that He would make him the father of many nations. Abraham believed him and God credited him with righteousness. And we who believe in His Son are also credited with righteousness.

Christ fulfilled the law completely for the believer. If one is following Christ, he is not going to be doing the things that the law says not to do, yet we are not under the law. And when we fail at any of things, we confess it and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Those trying to enter in by keeping the works of the law, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

You have a marvelous understanding of salvation, but I think you stop before your understanding is complete. You need to study what happens after we are saved, after we are made righteous through Christ as if we never sinned.

We accept Christ within us, and that means we are dead to sin, as you say, but that does not mean that we are not to know what sin is so we may wish to avoid it.

Paul puts it this way: Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How are we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?

Gal. 3:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves are to be found sinners, is Christ therefore ministers of sin? God forbid.

 

[tribesman]

Greetings tribesman,
The reference to 'fulfilling' the law, means to meet its righteous requirements, satisfying it completely. Once Jesus did that, it was legally fulfilled for all believers. It is akin to the word which says, "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin" Since Jesus shed His righteous blood on behalf of every believer, it has been satisfied on our behalf. We are saved by having faith in Christ. When one puts themselves under the works of the law, they are trusting in their own efforts. Those believing that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works, are trusting in what Christ did..

Agreed. However the law itself is not thereby abolished.

Anyone who wants to put themselves under the law, must keep the whole law, not just some of it. And when we break it in just one place, we have broken the whole law and are found guilty. Those who are trusting in Christ's finished work, are led by the Spirit and are made righteous through faith. Paul gave an example of this when writing to the Romans:
"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.".

I agree with this and I have not suggested anything otherwise.

He also says the following to the Galatians who were turning away from salvation by believing the gospel and turning back to salvation by the works of the law:
"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? a Have you experienced b so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?".

You said "turning back", I am not sure whether these believers were all jewish and (in case they were not) thereby not turning back to anything sort of the law. See the context. But here's one thing where I seemingly differ from most folks here at CC, I believe that "salvation by the works of the law" never existed. Including OT times. So the OT Saints were saved by the very same principle as the NT Saints: by grace through faith.

Abraham was credited with righteousness because he believed it when God said that Abraham's heir would come from his own body as a promise. And that He would make him the father of many nations. Abraham believed him and God credited him with righteousness. And we who believe in His Son are also credited with righteousness..

Abraham's walk of faith was commended by God by this statement:

Gen.26

[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
[5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You see, it's important to understand that faith produces fruit by a walk in obedience and not mere belief. This does not however imply making oneself righteous by one's own efforts of perfect law-keeping. But it means a desire of obeying and to call the law a delight. If faith bears no fruit, it's dead.

Christ fulfilled the law completely for the believer. If one is following Christ, he is not going to be doing the things that the law says not to do, yet we are not under the law. And when we fail at any of things, we confess it and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness..

Agreed here and I have not said anything otherwise than this.

Those trying to enter in by keeping the works of the law, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

While this is true, this is still a rare thing in comparison. What is most common is the opposite of this.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You have a marvelous understanding of salvation, but I think you stop before your understanding is complete. You need to study what happens after we are saved, after we are made righteous through Christ as if we never sinned.

We accept Christ within us, and that means we are dead to sin, as you say, but that does not mean that we are not to know what sin is so we may wish to avoid it.

Paul puts it this way: Rom. 6:2 God forbid. How are we who are dead to sin live any longer therein?

Gal. 3:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves are to be found sinners, is Christ therefore ministers of sin? God forbid.

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us."

What does this have to do with grace vs. the keeping of the law. All of the scriptures that I gave you are very straight forward in their meaning which proclaim that we are not saved by keeping the law, but you ignored all of them. If you can't believe all of those, how can you believe anything in the word of God?

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Here is the NLT version which explains it a little better:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I don't even consider the law on a daily basis. I follow Christ. And when I sin, I confess it and God says that when I do, that He is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and to cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Why would I or anyone want to put themselves under the law which the scriptures make clear, could not save anyone? In the following scripture, there were some believers of Christ of the Pharisee group who were trying to mix the two covenants of salvation by grace through faith and the keeping of the works of the law. And this what the outcome of that was:

====================================
"But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
============================================================

Peter in saying "the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe" is in reference to his visit to the Cornelius' house, a Gentile centurion. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak in languages and prophesy and that without the laying of hands, being circumcised or performing any good works. God cleansed their hearts because they believed what Peter was telling them.

From the time that we received Christ, as we go from faith to faith, every true believer is being transformed into His image, being sanctified through the Holy Spirit, which is the process of being made holy, a process that will continue until we die or until the Lord appears and gathers His church, were we will be transformed immortal and glorified. Amen! Come Lord Jesus!

Please read this and all the previous scriptures that I gave to you and believe.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Agreed. However the law itself is not thereby abolished.
I agree with this and I have not suggested anything otherwise.
You said "turning back", I am not sure whether these believers were all jewish and (in case they were not) thereby not turning back to anything sort of the law. See the context. But here's one thing where I seemingly differ from most folks here at CC, I believe that "salvation by the works of the law" never existed. Including OT times. So the OT Saints were saved by the very same principle as the NT Saints: by grace through faith.
Abraham's walk of faith was commended by God by this statement:



You see, it's important to understand that faith produces fruit by a walk in obedience and not mere belief. This does not however imply making oneself righteous by one's own efforts of perfect law-keeping. But it means a desire of obeying and to call the law a delight. If faith bears no fruit, it's dead.
Agreed here and I have not said anything otherwise than this.
While this is true, this is still a rare thing in comparison. What is most common is the opposite of this.

That brings us back to the question: Are you saved by grace through faith, or are you putting yourself under the works of the law for salvatiion?

I understand them very well, which is why I am contending for the truth. And I will not turn from following Christ, to trust in the works of the law. You're not speaking to someone who just fell off the turnip truck as though I need a lesson in salvation. I suggest that you go back to the post where I listed all of the scriptures that support what I have been saying.

 

[tribesman]

That brings us back to the question: Are you saved by grace through faith, or are you putting yourself under the works of the law for salvatiion?

I understand them very well, which is why I am contending for the truth. And I will not turn from following Christ, to trust in the works of the law. You're not speaking to someone who just fell off the turnip truck as though I need a lesson in salvation. I suggest that you go back to the post where I listed all of the scriptures that support what I have been saying.

This is confusing and I don't know why you are bringing all this up with me. And I did not lesson anybody. Can't see why you are having an argument or questions, when I have never anywhere stated that salvation would not be by grace through faith. Nobody here, let alone I, have suggested that anyone should be putting themselves under the works of the law for salvation . You are tilting against windmills, man.

 

[EddieKross]

I must have stumbled onto the wrong website. I thought this was a Christian chat site.

How absurd to take two sentences out of one of Christ's sermons and use those few word's (out of context) to stir up arguments and dissent.

Young Christians, just go ahead and read the whole chapter of Mathew 5, each of you, by yourselves.... and then read the book of Proverbs. Let Jesus show you how He expects us to live our lives. Measure yourself against His words.... let them sink in and change your thinking... and then try to emulate your Lord and master. Read and do what He says.

Quit arguing like a pack of wild hyenas.

 

[Blik]

"If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us."

What does this have to do with grace vs. the keeping of the law. All of the scriptures that I gave you are very straight forward in their meaning which proclaim that we are not saved by keeping the law, but you ignored all of them. If you can't believe all of those, how can you believe anything in the word of God?

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast."

Here is the NLT version which explains it a little better:

"God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I don't even consider the law on a daily basis. I follow Christ. And when I sin, I confess it and God says that when I do, that He is faithful and just to forgive me my sin and to cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Why would I or anyone want to put themselves under the law which the scriptures make clear, could not save anyone? In the following scripture, there were some believers of Christ of the Pharisee group who were trying to mix the two covenants of salvation by grace through faith and the keeping of the works of the law. And this what the outcome of that was:

====================================
"But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
============================================================

Peter in saying "the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe" is in reference to his visit to the Cornelius' house, a Gentile centurion. While Peter was still speaking, the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak in languages and prophesy and that without the laying of hands, being circumcised or performing any good works. God cleansed their hearts because they believed what Peter was telling them.

From the time that we received Christ, as we go from faith to faith, every true believer is being transformed into His image, being sanctified through the Holy Spirit, which is the process of being made holy, a process that will continue until we die or until the Lord appears and gathers His church, were we will be transformed immortal and glorified. Amen! Come Lord Jesus!

Please read this and all the previous scriptures that I gave to you and believe.

I think you know that grace is given to us not by keeping the law, but when we receive grace and accept Christ within us, we accept being repentant. Why are you fighting so against what is so evident?

Do you think scripture tells us to sin so we can prove we are under grace? Paul tells us that is not the way of truth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Putting an innocent man to death for what sinners do isn't righteousness. It's unrighteousness.

Since the crucifixion of Christ -- as planned by God the Father -- was indeed putting an innocent Man -- a sinless Man -- to death so that sinners could be saved, your statement is inappropriate. That was more than righteous, and also a demonstration of the grace and love of God for sinners.

Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled at the just demands of the Law in His life and in His death. Therefore there is now no more sacrifice for sins. IT IS FINISHED. Therefore the Old Covenant was indeed abolished, as we read in Scripture.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think that we can all agree that, the death of the testator has already been fulfilled, for over 2000 years now. Therefore, there was really no need for me to bring that up, since we all know that Jesus has already been crucified, buried and resurrected. Therefore, the will has been in affect for 2000 years now.

My purpose is to get Bilk and anyone else who is depending on the works of the law as a requirement for salvation, is to use scripture to show him that we cannot be saved by putting ourselves under the law to keep it. In fact, trusting in the law as a requirement for salvation will have the opposite affect. This is found in the example with Israel trying to obtain salvation by performing the works of the law vs. those having faith in the finished work of Christ:

"What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by the works of the law. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."

"

yeah I agree , my point was that there is a word we are accountable to

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with you moses law

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:”

cant save anyone what I’m saying is christs word is the covenant no longer Moses word , Christs is there now .

this can save us if we begin to keep this word

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”


So I agree if we are baptized we have died to the law of Moses that’s what fulfills the law for sinners thier death. What I’m saying is , and it was more of an addition , is that it’s not as if we don’t have a word , a law to keep and that we are fully accountable to it’s just not Moses law it’s Christs word

The whole word is already under the law and we need Christ to save us from the condemnation .

your right we don’t place ourselves back under a law that Jesus does to remove us from , but that doesn’t leave us with no law , we have Christs law and when we get baptized we’re automatically part of his covenant and accountable to his judgement

it’s the difference in stoning a sinner by Gods command in the law , and forgiving and then calling sinners to repentance and righteousness through the gospel

my only point was Jesus words are in effect so the covenant remains his word and his blood.

his word was a huge part of the work he was sent to do

 

[Journeyman]

Since the crucifixion of Christ -- as planned by God the Father -- was indeed putting an innocent Man -- a sinless Man -- to death so that sinners could be saved, your statement is inappropriate. That was more than righteous, and also a demonstration of the grace and love of God for sinners.

No. For God to plan putting an innocent man to death no matter what the reason would be a violation of his own law and sin.

The demonstration of the grace and love of God is how his Son patiently endured the sinful acts being committed against him, choosing to continue loving instead of bringing immediate judgement.

Jesus of Nazareth fulfilled at the just demands of the Law in His life and in His death. Therefore there is now no more sacrifice for sins. IT IS FINISHED. Therefore the Old Covenant was indeed abolished, as we read in Scripture.

Christianity today has Christs sacrifice all screwed up. The sacrifice was never intended as a replacement for sinners. It was strictly for the purpose of causing repentance because of sin committed against God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think you know that grace is given to us not by keeping the law, but when we receive grace and accept Christ within us, we accept being repentant. Why are you fighting so against what is so evident?

Do you think scripture tells us to sin so we can prove we are under grace? Paul tells us that is not the way of truth.

I don't know why you are saying that to me, I'm the one that has been telling you that. You will not find in any of my posts where I said that grace was given by keeping the law. In fact, I have been saying the exact opposite.

I don't know why you and others always interpret, not being under the law, to mean that it is okay to sin? You will never find any of my posts stating that we are free to sin because we are no longer under the law. Scripture states that those who think like that, their condemnation is deserved. So let me be clear, not being under the law does not equal freedom to sin. We are simply under a different covenant, where we follow Christ and are led by the Spirit and not by the works of the law. If one is doing this, their desire is not going to be to fulfill the desires of the sinful nature, but will be fighting to overcome them. And when we do commit sins as Christians, if we confess our sins and He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness. Read the scriptures below and understand what they are saying:

"For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

As it is written, the sting of death is sin and the law is what gives sin its power. Does that mean that the law is evil? Not at all! The law is Holy and Righteous. What is wrong, is with us in that, we have sinful natures, which are always waring against the Spirit and the Spirit against the sinful nature, for they are contrary to one another. And it is the law that gives power to our sinful nature to carry those acts of sin. As Paul said, "I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting." And you guys want to put yourselves back under the law?

Please don't bother me with the this debate regarding whether or not we are still under the law or not. There too many scriptures that teach that we are no longer under the law, but are saved by grace through faith, without the works of the law. This very concern of whether or not to keep the law given through Moses came up before the church in Israel and below was the outcome:

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But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
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The yoke that Peter speaks of that neither they nor their fathers were able to bear, is referring to the Law of Moses. Those Pharisees who were claiming that the Gentile believers had to be circumcised and obey the law of Moses, were trying to mix the two covenants. Regarding this, Jesus said, 'do not pour new wine into old wineskins, else the wineskins would burst and both the wine and the wineskins would be ruined.

 

[Ahwatukee]

yeah I agree , my point was that there is a word we are accountable to

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with you Moses law

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:”

cant save anyone what I’m saying is Christ's word is the covenant no longer Moses word , Christs is there now .

this can save us if we begin to keep this word

“But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

And here's the difference: If one committed adultery under the law, both parties were to be stoned.

If someone stumbles and commits adultery under faith in Christ, the scripture says that "when we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleans us of all unrighteousness. Under the law, if you break one, you've broken them all. The NLT says, the best to not break the law, is to have no law to break.

So I agree if we are baptized we have died to the law of Moses that’s what fulfills the law for sinners thier death. What I’m saying is , and it was more of an addition , is that it’s not as if we don’t have a word , a law to keep and that we are fully accountable to it’s just not Moses law it’s Christs word

If we were still under the law whether through Moses or through Christ, as you say, then we must keep the whole law perfectly. The law is not just being carried over from Moses to Christ. Do you understand that those who are in Christ are dead to the law and that the law dead to us. When scriptures says that Christ fulfilled the law, it means that He brought it to its end. It's been satisfied in God's eyes. Consider the following:

"For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God."

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Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised.

Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

24Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith. 25And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

 

[Blik]

Well, go ahead and try keeping the law then. .

My God is apparently not your God. My god tells me to repent of my sin. So I repent and repentance has me trying to live as Christ has ne live----forgiven of my sin and as if I didn't sin.

I don't need luck for Christ has made me righteous through Him. You need luck for how can you ask for forgiveness of sin you say you don't want to be rid of, scolding me for repenting of my sin.

 

[Ahwatukee]

My God is apparently not your God. My god tells me to repent of my sin. So I repent and repentance has me trying to live as Christ has ne live----forgiven of my sin and as if I didn't sin.

I don't need luck for Christ has made me righteous through Him. You need luck for how can you ask for forgiveness of sin you say you don't want to be rid of, scolding me for repenting of my sin.

I'm beginning to think that you are a troll, Blik! You are bring up issues that we we're not discussing. This has been a discussion of salvation by grace through faith vs. the keeping of the works of the law. Why would you infer that I don't believe that one has to repent when receiving Christ, when I never said anything like that? It was interjected into the conversation by you.

And also, what does 'luck' have to do with being in Christ? I've never mentioned anything like that.

I think we're done with this discussion! I have provided ample scriptures several posts back regarding the law vs. grace issue, which are all straight forward in their meaning. I would suggest going back to those scriptures and reread them and contemplate their meanings.