50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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The main scripture used by supporters of the Pre-Trib Rapture teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 You are in error every time you write this. This scripture supports ONLY that a catching up will take place. There is zero timing information given in this passage. For timing, keep reading - on into chapter 5. ;-)
Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes! Sorry. No. Error. False assumption. It will be Old Testament saints caught up then. For timing on the rapture of the church, Paul is the only man who received revelation on it. Therefore we just look to Paul for timing. Note: we must not form doctrine from isolated verses taken out of context. Rather, we leave all scripture in context and form doctrine from all the scriptures on a subject.
Paul tells us that HIS gathering, or the rapture will come JUST before wrath - perhaps as the trigger for the start of wrath. He makes the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events that cannot be separated in time. One moment in time is the end of the church age - and the next moment in time is the start of the Day of the Lord.
If we search Revelation for the start of the Day of the Lord, it begins just before the 70th week.
By the way, Jesus use of "the last day" may well be "the day of the Lord," not a 24 hour period of time.
Have you pinpointed the time in John's narrative in Revelation when all the Old Testament saints will be raised?
Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes! Sorry. No. Error. False assumption. It will be Old Testament saints caught up then. For timing on the rapture of the church, Paul is the only man who received revelation on it. Therefore we just look to Paul for timing. Note: we must not form doctrine from isolated verses taken out of context. Rather, we leave all scripture in context and form doctrine from all the scriptures on a subject.
Paul tells us that HIS gathering, or the rapture will come JUST before wrath - perhaps as the trigger for the start of wrath. He makes the rapture and the Day of the Lord as back to back events that cannot be separated in time. One moment in time is the end of the church age - and the next moment in time is the start of the Day of the Lord.
If we search Revelation for the start of the Day of the Lord, it begins just before the 70th week.
By the way, Jesus use of "the last day" may well be "the day of the Lord," not a 24 hour period of time.
Have you pinpointed the time in John's narrative in Revelation when all the Old Testament saints will be raised?
Now you have a marriage supper table with name tags on seats, compliments of a persons testimony of dying and seeing it, that's against scripture below, Real Big Smiles!
Revelation 2:17KJV
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Revelation 2:17KJV
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
FreeGrace2 said:
The word "fire" is used of judgment throughout Scripture. So yes, it's not a boy scout camp out. When He returns at the Second Advent, and sets up His Millennial rule, He will be JUDGING THE NATIONS. That's what's meant.
No, I UNDERSTAND how the Bible uses "fire", that's all.
And your point?
What you've done is misunderstand what I said. I NEVER said the ONLY WAY "fire" is used is for judgment.
I desire to know God's Word as written. And Rev 20 speaks of Christ ruling the nations for 1,000 years and then Satan being released from prison to gather the armies for the great battle of Gog and Magog.
Why you reject the clear words of Scripture is totally amazing. And not in a good way.
Jesus comes in judgment. But you are free to your own speculations.
One would have to completely ignore all of ch 20 to come up with such a ridiculous idea.
Apparently you go from ch 19 directly to ch 21. Shame on you.
Not at the return of Christ. And you have no verse to support your speculation. The NHNE occurs AFTER the Great White Throne judgment, in Rev 20:11-15.
Oh, wait! You don't believe anything in ch 20, do you. So, never mind. You don't have ears to hear or eyes to see.
"Day of the Lord" can include everything from His Second Advent to the end of the Millennium.
Why do you reject all of ch 20?
This is a clear statement that Jesus returns to earth "immediately after the Tribulation. It says nothing about destroying the earth.
I am ignoring the verse of the verses you quoted. Since your eyes and ears are closed to truth, there is no point in even trying to explain the truth to you.
The word "fire" is used of judgment throughout Scripture. So yes, it's not a boy scout camp out. When He returns at the Second Advent, and sets up His Millennial rule, He will be JUDGING THE NATIONS. That's what's meant.
No, I UNDERSTAND how the Bible uses "fire", that's all.
And your point?
What you've done is misunderstand what I said. I NEVER said the ONLY WAY "fire" is used is for judgment.
I desire to know God's Word as written. And Rev 20 speaks of Christ ruling the nations for 1,000 years and then Satan being released from prison to gather the armies for the great battle of Gog and Magog.
Why you reject the clear words of Scripture is totally amazing. And not in a good way.
Jesus comes in judgment. But you are free to your own speculations.
One would have to completely ignore all of ch 20 to come up with such a ridiculous idea.
Apparently you go from ch 19 directly to ch 21. Shame on you.
Not at the return of Christ. And you have no verse to support your speculation. The NHNE occurs AFTER the Great White Throne judgment, in Rev 20:11-15.
Oh, wait! You don't believe anything in ch 20, do you. So, never mind. You don't have ears to hear or eyes to see.
"Day of the Lord" can include everything from His Second Advent to the end of the Millennium.
Why do you reject all of ch 20?
This is a clear statement that Jesus returns to earth "immediately after the Tribulation. It says nothing about destroying the earth.
I am ignoring the verse of the verses you quoted. Since your eyes and ears are closed to truth, there is no point in even trying to explain the truth to you.
Your so-called "fact" here is simply delusional. There is clearly (for those who can see and hear truth) a Millennial reign of Christ.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Why would Christ reign in heaven? The Bible says in a number of places that He will rule the nations with an iron scepter.
Here we see reference to TWO resurrections. The FIRST one is the dead believers, and other verses clearly indicate that the living believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the same event, which is the Second Advent of Christ.
Of course there is. What King doesn't have a throne?
That comes from the other verses that say that Christ will rule the nations. Those who survived the trib.
Did you ever do the math about how many people will die in the Trib?
Rev 6:8 - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
The math reveals that these 2 verses together say that ONE HALF of the world's population will be killed.
So, who is left? Only believers? That doesn't make sense, since we know that Christianity is only a very small percent of the world's population. So there will be many unbelievers present.
Your speculations are, for sure.
Don't you ever preview your posts? This makes absolutely no sense.
When one spiritualizes everything, they are able to say whatever they want. iow, speculation, assumption, presumption, and wild guessing.
Why do you bother quoting from the chapter that you actually deny?
In v.3 we see "till the thousand years should be fulfilled".
In v. 5 we see "until the thousand years were finished".
And you have the audacity to claim "no literal time".
Yet, you have provided NO explanation for these phrases as to what they mean.
But it doesn't matter, because of your "spiritualizing" everything. You could make any of this mean anything at all.
What is clear to those whose eyes and ears are OPEN to the truth understand this is quite literal.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Why would Christ reign in heaven? The Bible says in a number of places that He will rule the nations with an iron scepter.
Here we see reference to TWO resurrections. The FIRST one is the dead believers, and other verses clearly indicate that the living believers will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the same event, which is the Second Advent of Christ.
Of course there is. What King doesn't have a throne?
That comes from the other verses that say that Christ will rule the nations. Those who survived the trib.
Did you ever do the math about how many people will die in the Trib?
Rev 6:8 - I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Rev 9:15 - And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind.
The math reveals that these 2 verses together say that ONE HALF of the world's population will be killed.
So, who is left? Only believers? That doesn't make sense, since we know that Christianity is only a very small percent of the world's population. So there will be many unbelievers present.
Your speculations are, for sure.
Don't you ever preview your posts? This makes absolutely no sense.
When one spiritualizes everything, they are able to say whatever they want. iow, speculation, assumption, presumption, and wild guessing.
Why do you bother quoting from the chapter that you actually deny?
In v.3 we see "till the thousand years should be fulfilled".
In v. 5 we see "until the thousand years were finished".
And you have the audacity to claim "no literal time".
Yet, you have provided NO explanation for these phrases as to what they mean.
But it doesn't matter, because of your "spiritualizing" everything. You could make any of this mean anything at all.
What is clear to those whose eyes and ears are OPEN to the truth understand this is quite literal.
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VCO said:
Howdy FreeGrace2. I can PROVE IT to someone WHO is Born Again.
Genuine FAITH is in the HEART, and NOT in what lies between your EARS.
NO POINT in Proving it to someone who is not Born Again.
That's exactly how I understood him.
What's what a lot of people assume. From calvinst's 5th point: perseverance of the saints. Which isn't biblical doctrine.
Howdy FreeGrace2. I can PROVE IT to someone WHO is Born Again.
Genuine FAITH is in the HEART, and NOT in what lies between your EARS.
NO POINT in Proving it to someone who is not Born Again.
That's exactly how I understood him.
What's what a lot of people assume. From calvinst's 5th point: perseverance of the saints. Which isn't biblical doctrine.
It seems you are mistaken on just about everything. It is no mistake that the 7th trumpet is in chapter 11 while Jesus coming to Armageddon is in chapter 19. It seems you have little regard for John's timing and chronology.
The truth is, in general, when you flip a page in Revelation, TIME PASSES. Ignore this truth and you will be mistaken on almost everything.
The truth is, in general, when you flip a page in Revelation, TIME PASSES. Ignore this truth and you will be mistaken on almost everything.
You're injecting the idea authority has been delegated. If you have verses showing that Satan isn't acting on his own cognizance to orchestrate the great tribulation then show them. I've already done my diligence by digging the verses up for you to read.
This thread has turned into a hot mess. I'm not going to be watching it anymore. Good luck.
This thread has turned into a hot mess. I'm not going to be watching it anymore. Good luck.
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Everyone knows, or should know, that Satan is behind everything the Beast and False Prophet does. That is not even in question. Your scriptures were non sequiturs.
The real question is this: where is God during the days of GT and is He behind it or is He only allowing it, and either way, why?
Many believers today know something of God as their Father and provider, but do we know God in His wrath?
Did you not understand that the 70th week, including the days of GT, are for Daniel's people and not the church?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city ...
Do you see it? It would be difficult to read "NT church" into this passage. It is for DANIEL's people, the Jews and Hebrews and for Jerusalem. Here is God's message to those on earth at the midpoint of the week:
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This is GOD telling those on earth that Satan is cast down and VERY ANGRY. So does it sound like God knows what Satan will do? OF COURSE HE will know! From the time Jesus rose from the dead, He reigned over His spiritual kingdom, but all during bible days, OT and NT, Satan was the god of this earth. John Wesley had an idea of this when he said that it seemed God could do nothing on earth unless someone prayed. The reason was "authority." God turned all authority over this planet to Adam, and Satan usurped that authority when Adam sinned.
So at the midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet, Adam's 6000 year lease will expire, and since that is his only hold as the spiritual leader of this planet, suddenly he is without any hold on the kingdoms. They are stripped from him and given to Jesus Christ and as I showed you, at that time Jesus began to reign over earth has He does in heaven. In other words, what will happen on earth from that moment on will be AS JESUS WILLS.
Do you imagine that Satan could tell Jesus, after he was kicked off his throne as god of this world, and after Jesus began to reign over the earth, that He, Satan, would rule the earth for 42 months, AGAINST GOD'S WILL? How could ANYONE think that? Has God grown weak" Has His power diminished so He could not stop Satan? Preposterous! God is going to ALLOW Satan to rule for HIS, GOD'S purposes.
The truth is, the ONLY reason Satan or the Beast will get 42 months is BECAUSE it is the will of God. AGain we go back to the PURPOSE of the days of Jacob's trouble, the 70th week:
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [Notice some will be delivered: God's purpose.]
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. [Note, God is going to accomplish something. He has a purpose.]
Many believers imagine God is done with Israel. The truth is, God made promises to them and IN SPITE of the fact that they continually REJECT their own messiah, God will still rescue a people from them. First, since their faith is in their IDF, God will totally destroy their IDF. It is going to get SO CLOSE to total annihilation, they will have noting left but to cry out to God - and that is what He will be waiting for.
How is God going to do this? He will use PEOPLE - those that hate Him but also hate Israel.
I understand, much of this will not be understood by posttribbers because it simply does not fit their theories.
What I wonder is, how big is YOUR God?
The real question is this: where is God during the days of GT and is He behind it or is He only allowing it, and either way, why?
Many believers today know something of God as their Father and provider, but do we know God in His wrath?
Did you not understand that the 70th week, including the days of GT, are for Daniel's people and not the church?
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city ...
Do you see it? It would be difficult to read "NT church" into this passage. It is for DANIEL's people, the Jews and Hebrews and for Jerusalem. Here is God's message to those on earth at the midpoint of the week:
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
This is GOD telling those on earth that Satan is cast down and VERY ANGRY. So does it sound like God knows what Satan will do? OF COURSE HE will know! From the time Jesus rose from the dead, He reigned over His spiritual kingdom, but all during bible days, OT and NT, Satan was the god of this earth. John Wesley had an idea of this when he said that it seemed God could do nothing on earth unless someone prayed. The reason was "authority." God turned all authority over this planet to Adam, and Satan usurped that authority when Adam sinned.
So at the midpoint of the week, marked by the 7th trumpet, Adam's 6000 year lease will expire, and since that is his only hold as the spiritual leader of this planet, suddenly he is without any hold on the kingdoms. They are stripped from him and given to Jesus Christ and as I showed you, at that time Jesus began to reign over earth has He does in heaven. In other words, what will happen on earth from that moment on will be AS JESUS WILLS.
Do you imagine that Satan could tell Jesus, after he was kicked off his throne as god of this world, and after Jesus began to reign over the earth, that He, Satan, would rule the earth for 42 months, AGAINST GOD'S WILL? How could ANYONE think that? Has God grown weak" Has His power diminished so He could not stop Satan? Preposterous! God is going to ALLOW Satan to rule for HIS, GOD'S purposes.
The truth is, the ONLY reason Satan or the Beast will get 42 months is BECAUSE it is the will of God. AGain we go back to the PURPOSE of the days of Jacob's trouble, the 70th week:
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [Notice some will be delivered: God's purpose.]
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. [Note, God is going to accomplish something. He has a purpose.]
Many believers imagine God is done with Israel. The truth is, God made promises to them and IN SPITE of the fact that they continually REJECT their own messiah, God will still rescue a people from them. First, since their faith is in their IDF, God will totally destroy their IDF. It is going to get SO CLOSE to total annihilation, they will have noting left but to cry out to God - and that is what He will be waiting for.
How is God going to do this? He will use PEOPLE - those that hate Him but also hate Israel.
I understand, much of this will not be understood by posttribbers because it simply does not fit their theories.
What I wonder is, how big is YOUR God?
You have to think with your heart first, and not with what lies between your ears.
That came naturally to me, and the Pretrib RAPTURE MADE PERFECT SENSE TO ME. In 1978, when I had never been taught that as a you Have.
HE GAVE ME JOY AND EXTREME HAPPINESS, just to think about it, and EVERYTIME I STILL THINK ABOUT IT. So isn't JOY one of the Spiritual Fruits. How much JOY has your Theology, brought to you ? ? ?
Oh just so you know, it is not a COMING until HIS FEET TOUCH THE GROUND. Ref: Zech. 14:4
The Appearance in the Clouds will only be for a Short Time, and is not to be Confused with a COMING. In the Parable of the Ten Virgins, the Home they GO TO where the Door is Locked behind US, is the New Dwelling Place that HE HAS PERSONALLY Built in HIS Fathers House.
Jesus said in:
John 14:2 (HCSB)
2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if not, I would have told you. I am going away to prepare a place for you.
That VERSE comes right out of a JEWISH Wedding Proposal. That is said immediately after the Bride drinks from the CUP, that Jesus poured for HIS Bride (the Disciples, the foundation of the Church). The Bride is called the BRIDE, immediately after she drinks from that Betrothal Cup. That Proposal is NON-VERBAL.
After the Bride accepts the Proposal, then the BRIDEGROOM GOES to the FATHER'S House to prepare a place for HIS BRIDE. HE WILL NOT RETURN UNTIL THE FATHER SAYS THE NEW DWELLING PLACE IS FINISHED, according to JEWISH CUSTOMS.
Mark 13:32-33 (NCV)
32 “No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows.
33 Be careful! Always be ready, because you don’t know when that time will be.
Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come. (To steal HIS BRIDE away.)
1 Thessalonians 5:2 (ASV)
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air
and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
It is ALL THERE, every bit of it, PRETRIB. WHY DO YOU NOT WANT TO BELIEVE?
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What could be clearer that John 14? Jesus has spent all this time since He ascended building homes for us. It is written that He will then come and get us and take us to those homes he has prepared. Some people imagine He has spent 2000 years building our homes, but then never takes us to the homes He has prepared. Heaven is where all the dead in Christ have been since they died. Since we are not going to be here for His wrath, where else would He take us? Paul says "so shall we every be with the Lord." If the Lord spends the entire 70th week and the time of His wrath in heaven, then we are there with Him.
How else is anyone going to get to heaven for the marriage and supper? And finally, how are we to return with Him unless we are there?
How else is anyone going to get to heaven for the marriage and supper? And finally, how are we to return with Him unless we are there?
I think he is one that thinks Every Single event in Human History is recorded in the BIBLE. I guess he has never read the Last Verse in John:
John 21:25 (HCSB)
25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which, if they were written one by one, I suppose not even the world itself could contain the books that would be written.