Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?

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S

S3RV4NT

Banned
#121
Apr 21, 2021
72
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#121
Those are all good verses and I can't deny their significance.

Here are a few for people to chew on who might take sin a bit more lightly:

"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
(Amos 9:10)
"Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh, ... and He shall destroy the sinners ..."
(Is. 13:9)
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, ... Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
(Ps. 1:1,5)
"Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:"
(Ps. 26:9)
"... we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: ..."
(1 Pet. 2:24)
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. ..."
(1 Jn. 3:8)
"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
(Jude 15)
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#122
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#122
ewq1938 said:
Nothing was "instituted". God rested that day but there is nothing about him telling anyone about it at the time. The first time people were told about the Sabbath was after they left Egypt. That's when it was first instituted.
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After God made the earth suitable for humans and created Adam and Eve, what did He do? He created the Sabbath day, blessed it, set it apart and rested on it.

Genesis 2: 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#123
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
#123
S3RV4NT said:
Those are all good verses and I can't deny their significance.

Here are a few for people to chew on who might take sin a bit more lightly:

"All the sinners of My people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us."
(Amos 9:10)
"Behold, the Day of the Lord cometh, ... and He shall destroy the sinners ..."
(Is. 13:9)
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, ... Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous."
(Ps. 1:1,5)
"Gather not my soul with sinners, nor my life with bloody men:"
(Ps. 26:9)
"... we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: ..."
(1 Pet. 2:24)
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. ..."
(1 Jn. 3:8)
"To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
(Jude 15)
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There are two types of sinners. The evil ones who reject God. Those are the sinners in the above verses.

Another sinner is one who loves God and repents but is imperfect and does sin but doesn't want to.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#124
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
113
#124
Blik said:
After God made the earth suitable for humans and created Adam and Eve, what did He do? He created the Sabbath day, blessed it, set it apart and rested on it.
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And it was only for Him. The Sabbath was only given to Israel and that was when they wear near Sinai in Exodus. In addition, there is no evidence that God ever rested on the Sabbath again plus Christ said in the NT that he and his Father worked everyday which included the Sabbath. Working on a Sabbath was allowed for God and the Lord of the Sabbath and his disciples.

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#125
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#125
S3RV4NT said:
I have a hard time believing Paul was a depraved 'sinner.' I also don't embrace the modern statement of Christians being 'sinners.'
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Paul as a man had even murdered Christians until He met Christ, and Paul told us he did what he did not want to do. As men we are sinners, but if we are forgiven by Christ it is as if we never sinned. For this wonderful blessing, for our very lives in eternity we are only asked that we have faith in Christ, that we repent of our sins and not want to sin, and we forgive others.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#126
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#126
ewq1938 said:
And it was only for Him. The Sabbath was only given to Israel and that was when they wear near Sinai in Exodus. In addition, there is no evidence that God ever rested on the Sabbath again plus Christ said in the NT that he and his Father worked everyday which included the Sabbath. Working on a Sabbath was allowed for God and the Lord of the Sabbath and his disciples..
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Whenever I hear that God did not tell of His ways as God gave us scripture but only spoke to a select few people my Holy Spirit puts out alarm bells.

When God gave the words in Genesis there was no Israel, God created Israel much later.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#127
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
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#127
Blik said:
Whenever I hear that God did not tell of His ways as God gave us scripture but only spoke to a select few people my Holy Spirit puts out alarm bells.

When God gave the words in Genesis there was no Israel, God created Israel much later.
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And gave them the Sabbath much later as well. There is ZERO evidence that anyone knew of and kept the Sabbath before it is found in Exodus.
 
Blik

Blik

Senior Member
#128
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#128
ewq1938 said:
And gave them the Sabbath much later as well. There is ZERO evidence that anyone knew of and kept the Sabbath before it is found in Exodus.
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God establishes our world, we do not have a hand in it's creation. Whether man kept the Sabbath or did not keep it has nothing to do with the fact of the Sabbath.
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

Well-known member
#129
Oct 18, 2018
5,020
1,268
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#129
Blik said:
Whether man kept the Sabbath or did not keep it has nothing to do with the fact of the Sabbath.
Click to expand...

Scripture tells us man started keeping the Sabbath in Exodus.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#130
#130
Tararose said:
Heb 10 14 For by one offering he hath (PAST TENSE) perfected for ever them that are sanctified

It appears you do not agree with this.
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Oh I don’t

do tell how I do not agree with this?

I was perfected forever about 40 years ago my friend.

I am still being sanctified and will continue to be sanctified until I meet my savior face to face,

once again, you do not see, to comprehend the conversation here.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#131
#131
S3RV4NT said:
I have a hard time believing Paul was a depraved 'sinner.' I also don't embrace the modern statement of Christians being 'sinners.'

Not only are there countless verses in scripture about how much God 'Hates' sinners, but to call oneself a sinner is to accept sin in your life. To completely embrace sin and give up on even trying to fight it.

The True Christian experience is about battle, spiritual battle. It's about self-denial and change. A Christian should be constantly changing, little by little to become more and more like Jesus and less like ourselves. That's why reading the Bible daily is so important. It's the power of God's Word that chips away at our worldly habits and mental stances over time.

Christians sin, yes. But to call oneself a sinner is, to me, to forfeit any separation/sanctification from sin which separates us from God.

I dunno, ... maybe I'm just too much of an idealist. I truly believe God desires that we be perfect and actually strive for that. It's ok to miss the mark if you continue to hold fast to the ideal and keep striving for it with all that you've got for the rest of your days upon the earth.

"... be imitators of God ..." (Eph. 5:1)
"... be perfect, just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." (Matt. 5:48)
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According to the law you are a sinner,

if one commits one sin, they are a breaker of the law. And a sinner,

that’s why Grace is our instrument of hope and freedom. Not the law, as the op wants to continue to try to get people to do.

I am a sinner saved by grace, cursed by the law. But saved by the blood of the lamb of God who took my curse in my place,
 
S

S3RV4NT

Banned
#132
Apr 21, 2021
72
11
8
#132
Just this one little niggle here is all.

True Israel is (and was) a spiritual race of people. Not a physical one.

They are called 'the Israel of God.'

"... in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncirc., but a new (creation/spirit). ... as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."
(Gal. 6:15-16)
"... they are not all Israel which are Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children (of the Israel of God): but in Isaac (the spiritual promise) shall thy seed be called. ... They which are the children of the flesh (those of Ishmael and those of Isaac who do not believe), these are not the children of God: but the children of (the spiritual) promise are the seed (the Israel of God)."
(Rom. 9:6-8)

Exodus tells us that those who came out of Egypt were 'NOT' a pure physical race of people.

"... the children of Israel journeyed (out of Egypt) ... about six hundred thousand on foot that were men beside children. ... a mixed multitude went up also with them; ..."
(Ex. 12:37-38)

We know that many of these were destroyed by God in the wilderness due to their lack of faith. So it was only those who believed and worshiped in their spirit the God of the man Israel (Jacob) who were the Israel of God.

"God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth."
(Jn. 4:24)

Israel consisted of all those who worshiped the God of the man Israel (Jacob) in spirit and in Truth.

Bottom line: The Sabbath was given to ALL BELIEVING CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE, OF EVERY RACE.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#134
#134
S3RV4NT said:
Just this one little niggle here is all.

True Israel is (and was) a spiritual race of people. Not a physical one.

They are called 'the Israel of God.'

"... in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncirc., but a new (creation/spirit). ... as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."
(Gal. 6:15-16)
"... they are not all Israel which are Israel: Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children (of the Israel of God): but in Isaac (the spiritual promise) shall thy seed be called. ... They which are the children of the flesh (those of Ishmael and those of Isaac who do not believe), these are not the children of God: but the children of (the spiritual) promise are the seed (the Israel of God)."
(Rom. 9:6-8)

Exodus tells us that those who came out of Egypt were 'NOT' a pure physical race of people.

"... the children of Israel journeyed (out of Egypt) ... about six hundred thousand on foot that were men beside children. ... a mixed multitude went up also with them; ..."
(Ex. 12:37-38)

We know that many of these were destroyed by God in the wilderness due to their lack of faith. So it was only those who believed and worshiped in their spirit the God of the man Israel (Jacob) who were the Israel of God.

"God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in Truth."
(Jn. 4:24)

Israel consisted of all those who worshiped the God of the man Israel (Jacob) in spirit and in Truth.

Bottom line: The Sabbath was given to ALL BELIEVING CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE, OF EVERY RACE.
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Israel was given the law. Part of this law was the sabaath laws.

Israel was required to keep these laws if they were to be blessed in their land.

It was not given to spiritual Israel. It was given to physical Israel.

Now saying this, I do believe we should take a day of rest, It is for our benefit. But we are no longer under law but Grace. It is not a sin if we work on saturday (or sunday for that matter)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#136
#136
S3RV4NT said:
Who wrote the Bible?

Who was IT given to?
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Who was the law given to?

And who would be punished if they did not keep the law. Even being removed from their land?
 
S

S3RV4NT

Banned
#137
Apr 21, 2021
72
11
8
#137
S3RV4NT said:
Who wrote the Bible?

Who was IT given to?
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eternally-gratefull said:
Who was the law given to?

And who would be punished if they did not keep the law. Even being removed from their land?
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You're right!

The Law and the Bible originated from the same Divine Author.

They were both given to All those who would worship God in spirit and in Truth throughout eternity.

And all those who did not keep that Law would be removed from the Promised Land to come. The land where the Elect Children of God would be gathered upon Christ's return, where they would continue to worship God and keep His Laws as well as the Holy Sabbath.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me, saith the Lord, so shall Your Seed and Your Name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the Lord."
(Is. 66:22-23)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#138
#138
S3RV4NT said:
You're right!

The Law and the Bible originated from the same Divine Author.

They were both given to All those who would worship God in spirit and in Truth throughout eternity.

And all those who did not keep that Law would be removed from the Promised Land to come. The land where the Elect Children of God would be gathered upon Christ's return, where they would continue to worship God and keep His Laws as well as the Holy Sabbath.

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me, saith the Lord, so shall Your Seed and Your Name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, saith the Lord."
(Is. 66:22-23)
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Your wrong

The law was given by God to Moses. To the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It was not given to any gentile people. Saved or unsaved. When Jonah went to ninevah, they repented. He did not command they follow the law.
 
S

S3RV4NT

Banned
#139
Apr 21, 2021
72
11
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#139
eternally-gratefull said:
Your wrong

The law was given by God to Moses. To the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It was not given to any gentile people. Saved or unsaved. When Jonah went to ninevah, they repented. He did not command they follow the law.
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You're trying to play Hardball, but you're really just playing Roger Dodger.

Who wrote the Bible? (2nd attempt to pin you down to a position in that regard - which you are intentionally Dodging.)

Are you familiar with this passage from the New Testament of God's Word?

"This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus (after the crucifixion). And he took it down, ... and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, ... that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on. ... and (they) rested the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment."
(Luke 23:54,56)

Are you familiar with this statement by Paul in the New Testament of God's Word?

"Do we then make void the Law through Faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law."
(Rom. 3:31)

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Was he not?

Was he not the Apostle who brought God's Word to the Gentile Nation?

And did Paul keep the Law? Let's go to scripture in Acts where James and the elders are speaking directly to Paul.

"... (that) all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are of nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Law."
(Acts 21:24)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#140
#140
S3RV4NT said:
You're trying to play Hardball, but you're really just playing Roger Dodger.

Who wrote the Bible? (2nd attempt to pin you down to a position in that regard - which you are intentionally Dodging.)

Are you familiar with this passage from the New Testament of God's Word?

"This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus (after the crucifixion). And he took it down, ... and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, ... that day was the preparation, and the Sabbath drew on. ... and (they) rested the Sabbath Day according to the Commandment."

Are you familiar with this statement by Paul in the New Testament of God's Word?

"Do we then make void the Law through Faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law."
(Rom. 3:31)

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles. Was he not?

Was he not the Apostle who brought God's Word to the Gentile Nation?

And did Paul keep the Law? Let's go to scripture in Acts where James and the elders are speaking directly to Paul.

"... (that) all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are of nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Law."
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Your just trying to hold pat.

Your answer does not matter, Not everything written in the bible is for all people.

But that's fine, You want to be a modern day pharisee. Feel free.

I am secure in christ. Your or any other lawyer can not take that away from me.

ps. You cant keep the law. Perfection was required.

Moses made that demand, Cursed is everyone who does not confirm and obey every word

Paul repeated it, and said whoever is under the law is under a curse. because cursed is the one..

And james concured. saying we can keep the law our whole life yet stumble in one point and we are guilty/.

Go ahead and try to keep the law. it will condemn you where you stand
 
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